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The Anatomy of a GM: Omar Minaya


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#1 The King Maker

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 07:22 PM

This is a long message, and I posted this on the Mets board, but got no response. So I thought I'd try it here since there are a few Mets fans here atleast.

I never really understood all the hatred for Willie, as my whole point of view is that, this team was over-rated, and too dependent on Reyes and a shaky pitching staff. From where I stand, I saw Omar as the one who should take MORE blame than Willie. Don't get me wrong, Willie isn't the brightest nut in the world, but he doesn't deserve the scorn that he recieves with Mets fans. Willie is attacked more because he doesn't really have past performances to rely on. So to make my point, lets examine Omar Minaya as a GM. I pretty much tried to exclude free agent signings, because that probably doesn't say a whole lot about the ability of a GM, but rather the contracts he is able to offer. In Montreal, he was restrained with a budget, so he was at a disadvantage there, and in NY he has very high payroll, so he's at an advantage. I looked at his drafts first, and provide the players that were available for him to choose. The pool of players don't include players such as say Delmon Young or Justin Verlander, who were never on the draft board when Omar got to pick. Then his trades.

Omar Minaya took over the Expos in 2002, lets look at his drafts since then:

2002 draft:

1st round (5th pick), he picks Clinton Everts:

The players chosen after this pick (thus the pool of players he got to pick from) and before his next pick (For time issues, we'll just call this PoP, standing for Pool of Players)

Prince Fielder, Jeff Francis, Jermey Hermedia, Joe Saunders, Khalil Greene, Scott Kazmir (Yeah that guy again), Cole Hamels, Nick Swisher, James Loney, Jeff Francoeur, Joe Blanton, Matt Cain, John Mayberry (He didn't sign, is now with the Rangers), Mark Teahan (didn't sign either), Joey Votto

Then came the Expos second round pick: Darrell Rasner (Yes the same guy was in the Yankees bullpen earlier this season after being released by the Nats last year):

PoP for that pick: Micah Owings (Didn't sign), Zach Hammes (Dodgers, he is a sleeper prospect right now), Jon Lester, Johnathan Broxton, Brian McCann, Elijah Dukes (Ok, maybe that wasn't that bad to pass him up).

Then came his 3rd pick in round 3: Larry Broadway

PoP for that pick: Curtis Granderson

Then his 4th round pick: Jonathan Felfoldi:

The PoP for that pick: Rich Hill, Josh Johnson, Delwyn Young, Hayden Penn

Then his 5th round pick: William Pearson

The PoP for that pick: Cesar Ramos (Didn't sign), John Maine

His 6th round pick: Chad Chop

His PoP for that pick: Scott Olsen, Pat Neshek, Matt Capps

This his 7th round pick: Michael O'Connor:

The PoP for that pick: Ryan Spilborghs, Joey Gomes

His 8th round pick: Friedel Pinkston:

The Pop for that pick: Adam Lind (Didn't sign), Clay Hensley (Although this isn't that bad)

His 9th round pick: Christopher Barlow:

The PoP for that is pretty non existant

His 10th round pick: Justin Azze

The PoP for that pick: Howie Kendrick, Matt Lindstrom,

His 11th round pick: Jason Bergman (Finally one that is atleast decent):

The PoP for that pick: Joe Zumaya, Ryan Shealy,

Ok, now because I'm tired, I'll just list the players they missed in round 12 - 20:

PoP: Anthony Reyes, Mike Pelfrey (But with how's he's been bad this year, not that bad I guess, didn't sign by the way), Dustin Nippert, Russel Martin.

There, for all those picks, Omar Minaya got Jason Bergman, a brink pitching prospect who is probably a 5th starter on most teams. This is a terrible job by Omar on the draft. I know his budget is limited with the Expos, but to pass up on all those good players and to basically land Jason Bergman in the 10th round is kinda a disgrace.

Now, lets move onto the 2003 draft:

2003 Draft:

1st round pick: Chad Cordero (Very good pick)

PoP for that pick: Brandon Wood, Chad Billingsly, Daric Barton, Carlos Quinten, Adam Miller, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Adam Jones (M's), Jo-Jo Reyes, Tom Gorzelanny, Ryan Sweeny.

There was a 2nd round pick: Jerry Owens

The PoP for this pick: Jason Hirish, Andre Eithier, Andrew Miller, Chris Ray, Ryan Garko, Shaun Marcum,

His 3rd round pick:Kory Casto

The PoP for that pick: Matt Harriston (The pitcher the Braves sent to Texas as part of the Tex deal), Jonathan Papelbon,

His 4th round pick: Edgardo Baez

The PoP for that pick: No one of importance

His 5th round pick: Billy Webb

The PoP for that pick: Sean Marshall, Kevin Kouzmanoff

His 6th round pick: Joshua Whitesell

The PoP for that pick: Matt Kemp, Virgil Vazquez (Tigers), Brian Bannister, Kyle Kendrick,

His 7th round pick: Devin Perrin

The PoP for that pick: Reggie Willits,

His 8th round pick: Daryl Thompson

The PoP for that pick: No one of importance

His 9th round pick: Gabriel Sosa

The PoP for that pick: No one of importance

His 10th round pick: Victor Hamisevicz:

The PoP for that pick: Not a lot.

Ok from Rounds 11- 20 again, who they passed up:

The PoP for rounds 11-20: Donald Veal, James Hoey (O's a very good RP prospect), Matt LaPorta (Didn't sign), Ian Kennedy (Didn't sign), Anthony Reyes (Again), Ian Kinsler,

He gets a good pick with Chad Cordero, so he did ok in this draft. He didn't leave the draft with nothing like last time, so we can see this as an improvement I guess.

Now lets see how he does with the Mets:

His first draft was thre 2005 draft:

2005 draft, 1st round: Mike Pelfrey

The PoP for that pick: Cameron Maybin, Andrew McCutchen, Jay Bruce, Trevor Crow, Chris Volstad, Cesar Carrillo, John Mayberry, Jacoby Ellsbury, Colby Rasmus, Travis Buck, Cesar Ramos (again) Luke Hocheover, Clay Bucholz, James Cox, Donald Veal (agian), Kevin Slowley, Joshua Wall, Yunel Escobar, Micah Owings (again), Will Inman,

His next pick is in the 4th round: Picks Hector Pellot

The PoP for that pick: Kevin Whelan, Brent Lillibridge, Gabriel Sanchez,

His pick in the 5th round pick: Andrew Butera

The PoP for this pick: Jonathan Mealoan,

His 6th round pick: Greogory Cain

The PoP for this pick: No one of importance

His 7th rounc pick: Jonathan Niese

The PoP for that pick: No one of importance

His 8th round pick: Sean McCraw

The PoP for this pick: Austin Jackson,

His 9th round pick: Robert Parnell

The PoP for this pick: No one of importance

His pick for the 10th roundL Courtney Billingslea

The PoP for that pick: Joshua Outman,

Now rounds 11-20 PoP that weren't picked by him: Alan Horne, Pedro Alverez (He didn't sign, but is believed to to be the consenus top pick in next year's draft), And thats about it. Mostly the high end picks here, don't pan out for another year because its usually high risk high school picks that have the upside here.

I know I listed Pelfrey before as a PoP and at the spot he was available, he was valuable, but tagging him with a first round pick in retrospect looks kinda bad now. He just doesn't seem to develop that second pitch he so desperately needs, and Rick Peterson hasn't really helped him. I see this as a step back, because Omar basically came out of this with no star, and his only hope is that Pelfrey turns out decent.

Lets see his next attempt at the draft:

2006: Omar didn't really have a lot to work with in draft picks

1st round: No pick

2nd round: Kevin Mulvey

PoP for that pick: Justin Masterson, Cedric Hunter

3rd round pick: Joe Smith (Good pick)

PoP: Bryce Cox, Zach McAllister,

4th round pick: John Holdzkom

PoP: Not really anyone of note, unless Jeff Smardzija counts. He has some hype the but the results been rather ordinary, so I don't think he should be inlcuded.

5th round pick: Stephen Holmes

PoP: No one of note again

6th round pick: Scott Schafer

PoP: Not much again

7th round pick: Daniel Stegall

PoP: Tim Norton,

8th round pick: Nathan Hendrick

PoP: Dellin Betances

9th round pick: Jermey Barfield

PoP: Mark Melancon (he's injured now, but still a top talent, and could possibly be the heir apparent to Mariano Rivera according to some scouts), Desmond Jennings

10th round pick: Phillps Orta

PoP: No one of note

11-20 PoP that weren't picked by him: Matt LaPorta. David Robertson, Lars Anderson,

He gets Joe Smith, who looked good earlier this year. Maybe it was his release point that was fooling hitters, and maybe they caught up to him, but atleast he made it to the majors, and had some success. He did fall off at the end, but there could be a decent middle relief pitcher in there, so I think Omar does ok. But with his resources, he should have gotten atleast one star. I mean, the Yankees, the RedSox, the Tigers, they all seem to go overslot to land talent, and the Mets just don't do it, or pick the wrong guy to do it on.

Excluded the 2007 draft, because its way too early to tell with that draft.

From this, I think its safe to assume that Omar isn't all that good in the draft. He is part of the reason why the Nationals are so bad right now. He rarely took advantage of the opportunity to pick star players in Montreal, and he doesn't take advantage of the money factor in NY when it comes to drafts.

Then throw in his trades:

Lets see how he did in trades over there for someone who is so acclaimed:

He started as the GM in 2002, so lets see:

Traded Guillermo Mota and Wilkin Raun to the Dodgers for Matt Herges and Jorge Nunez. A big win for the Dodgers, as Mota had some good seasons for them. So he loses his first one pretty badly, when he trades away a young relief pitcher in Mota, who was actually good back then (Juiced or not, thats another question)

Traded Jason Bay and Jimmy Serrano to the Mets for Lou Collier. Its one thing to trade a future star like Bay for nothing, but its an insane event when anyone, and I do repeat ANYONE gets fleeced by the great Steve Philips. Philips obviously made up for this great move by trading Bay away for nothing. So Omar has lost that trade too, and in horrible fashion.

He did a minor trade with the Mets that sent Scott Strickland here, who used to be decent for about what 2 seasons? He got Bruce Chen, Luis Figueroa, Dickey Gonzalez. The Mets later sent Saul Rivera (You recognize him from the past week, don't you?) for the trade. I'll call this trade even. Rivera had some injury problems, and isn't the same pitcher as he was projected to be. Strickland was ok, for about a year.

Then Omar does his masterstroke: He trades Lee Steven, Brandon Philips (now a 30-30 second baseman), Grady Seizmore (a superstar CF), Cliff Lee (a good 4th starter on an NL team), for half a season rental of Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew. To say he got his rear end kicked in this deal, is putting it lightly.

Then Omar traded Carl Pavano, Graeme Lloyd, Mike Mordecai, Justin Wayne, for a rental of Cliff Floyd, Wilton Guerrerro, Claudio Vargas (The same idiot hetraded for again this season). Again Omar loses a trade as Pavano had one very good season before becoming the laughing stock of the Free Agent world with the Yankees.

He trade Cliff Floyd to the RedSox for Sun-Woo Kim and Seung Song. He loses ANOTHER trade.

Then Omar does his first really good trade. He trade Matt Herges, to the Pirates for Chris Young (The pitcher on the Padres) and John Searless. Now this is a very good trade.

Then Omar trades Bartolo Colon and Jorge Nunez to the WhiteSox, for Rocky Biddle, El Duque, and Jeff Leifer, which again he loses, because he paid way too much to get Colon in the first place, and gets nothing in return basically.

Then Omar does a good trade where he trades Jim Brower and Matt Blan for Livan Hernendez. Livan pitches good for the Expos at later the Nats.

Omar also fails to trade his biggest commodity to rebuild, Vladimir Guerrero. Instead of getting stud prospects, Omar settles for draft picks, which he didn't too great on.

Omar then trades Michael Barrett to the A's for Bret Price. Another trade where he loses.

Omar traded Javier Vazquez to the Yankees, for Nick Johnson, Juan Rivera, and Randy Choate. This was a good trade. Nick Johnson is a good player, even though he seems to get injured a lot. Juan Rivera turned out good, just with another team.

Traded Scott Stewart to the Indians for Maicer Izturis, and Ryan Church, a pretty good deal by Omar

Then Omar pulls what might be his best value trade out of them all in trading Choate for John Patterson, an excellent move.

But Omar makes up for his good trade with Chris Young by trading him and Josh McKinley to the Rangers for Enar Diaz and Justin Echols. A very bad move by Omar

Omar trades away saul Rivera to the Brewers for some no one player. He loses another trade.

Omar trades Carl Evertt to the WhiteSox and gets Gary majewski and Jon Rauch. A very good trade by Omar

Omar trades away Orlando Cabrera to Boston as part of that 4 way deal, he gets back Brendon Harris, Alex Gonzalez, and Francis Beltran. So Omar gets his butt kicked on this one too.

Those are Omar's moves before he came to NY. Now with NY, lets see. Lets look from the end of the 2004 season:

Traded Mike Stanton for Felix Heredia; a wash basically, one problem for another.

Traded Vance Wilson for Anderson Hernendez. Its a win for Omar, but not in a great way as Hernendez hasn't shown that he can hit MLB pitching at all so far.

He sold Pedro Felixiano to a Japanese team.

Traded for Doug Mientkiewtiz: Didn't give up much, but he traded for Doug Mientkiewitz, thats got to be a negative right?

Traded Jason Philips for Kaz Ishi: Not exactly a trade that worked out for either side, so call it a wash I guess

Traded Mike Cameron to the Padres for Xavier Nady: I don't know if Cameron could cut it here, but he is still a better player than Nady, I'd say Omar lost this one.

Traded Mike Jacobs, Yusmeiro Petit, and Grant Psomas to the Marlins for Delgado: I think its a win for Omar, as Delgado did have a good year last year, but Jacobs was cheaper. Its a slight win I guess, considering salaries and all.

Traded Dante Brinkley and Gaby Hernendez to the Marlins for La Duca. This one I think is a slight win too, but Gaby Hernendez seems like he could be good for the Marlins.

Traded Jae Seo and Tim Hamulack for Duaner Sanchez and Steve Schmoll: This was a clear win until Sanchez decided to take late night cab rides. Still think its a win.

Traded Kris Benson for Jorge Julio and John Maine. A very good trade by Omar

Traded Jorge Julio for El Duque, another good trade by Omar

Traded Kaz Matsui to the Rockies for Eli Marrerro: I'll say this is just a wash. Kaz has done well with the Rockies, but he was never going to cut it here, and I would have probably released him outright, so I can't blame Omar on this one.

Traded Jeff Keppinger for Ruben Gotay, another good trade I think

Traded Xavier Nady to the Pirated for Roberto Hernendez and Oliver Perez, a very good trade

Traded Evan MacLane for Shawn Green. Say what you want about Green, but this is another good trade.

Traded Heath Bell and Royce Ring for Jon Adkins and Ben Johnson. Omar got his head handed to him on this one.

Traded Brian Bannister for Ambrorix Burgos, another trade where Omar loses badly

Traded Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom for Jason Vargas, another trade he loses out badly

--------

From seeing this, I'm suprised Omar gets as much credit as he does around here. He was average at BEST. He pulls off some nice deals, but also gets killed in some trades. Lets look at the Nats for an example. This is the team they could have fielded without Omar trading away most of the players. I understand Cabrera, because his salary was going to rise, so I can understand that one. And Nick Johnson and Rivera came over the Vazquez trade, which he had to do too.

C: Michael Barrett
1B: Nick Johnson
2B: Brandon Philphs
SS: Orlando Cabrera
3B: This is a blank spot, because Zimmerman came to the Nats after Omar left
CF: Grady Seizmore
RF: Jason Bay
LF: Jerry Owens/ Juan Rivera

That sure looks a lot better than what they throw out there, right now, don't they? I know the money aspect of the whole thing, but at the time most of these players were traded, they were prospects that weren't making much money.

Infact I think part of the reason why the Nats have been horrible (except for the last week against the Mets) was because of Omar.

He doesn't really help the team to a great length in the draft, and he's hit or miss in trades to the point that he hurts more than helps. I don't really see why there is such a fascination with him. And how everyone thinks he will rebuild the farm system or make great trades. I mean, he's better than say Steve Philiphs (is he really? but I'm too lazy to go look up Philphs stats) but not by much.

Any thoughts on this?

Edited by The King Maker, 02 October 2007 - 07:24 PM.


#2 The Czar

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 07:38 PM

Did you look all this up? I'm reporting you. Put down the Minaya voodoo doll and take down your Death to Minaya poster.

You are going above and beyond in your break down. I guess I could do the same thing with Brian Scabean, but it would just make me sad. We have Cain and Lincecum though.

Seriously, it is so early to tell with so many of those guys. GM's generally have a 5 year period to build a farm system and a club. He was probably seriously hampered when he was a GM for the Expos. They probably didn't even touch the bonus babies that they knew they couldn't sign.

I honestly dont' know enough to comment. If he does a poor job with the Mets, I am sure the media will rip him apart.

He clearly lost the Bannister trade, when ironically, most scouts in baseball thought he clearly won it. At least he didnt' deal Scott Kazmir away.

He did acquire John Maine and Oliver Perez for peanuts on the dollar. He signed Beltran, Pedro, Delgado and Billy Wagner. Those are huge moves dude.

He has put together a World Series caliber team. There is no reason they shouldn't have been the hands down favorite to have won it all.
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#3 Oscar

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 07:59 PM

He did acquire John Maine and Oliver Perez for peanuts on the dollar. He signed Beltran, Pedro, Delgado and Billy Wagner. Those are huge moves dude.

He has put together a World Series caliber team. There is no reason they shouldn't have been the hands down favorite to have won it all.


Signing Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, and Wagner doesnt make you smart. Any GM who had the resources would go after bonafide all star players. The only one that had some kind of risk was Pedro b/c of his injury concerns and at this point I think its fair to call that signing a bust b/c he wasnt healthy all year and the odds on him being healthy from here on out dont look great.

Maine and Perez are his crowning achievements but on the opposite end you have Bannister and Heath Bell. I agree with the original poster that he deserves the majority of the blame. There have been questions surrounding every member of the pitching staff at some point this year, bullpen included, and he did nothing at the trade deadline on top of not doing much in the offseason to address those issues. Maine and Perez were breaking down before the trade deadline and those were their two best pitchers. All he did was get Castillo which was really not neccessary with Gotay and the rest of their hitting. There is a legitimate gripe their if you are a Mets fan.

#4 The King Maker

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:15 PM

Did you look all this up? I'm reporting you. Put down the Minaya voodoo doll and take down your Death to Minaya poster.

You are going above and beyond in your break down. I guess I could do the same thing with Brian Scabean, but it would just make me sad. We have Cain and Lincecum though.

Seriously, it is so early to tell with so many of those guys. GM's generally have a 5 year period to build a farm system and a club. He was probably seriously hampered when he was a GM for the Expos. They probably didn't even touch the bonus babies that they knew they couldn't sign.

I honestly dont' know enough to comment. If he does a poor job with the Mets, I am sure the media will rip him apart.

He clearly lost the Bannister trade, when ironically, most scouts in baseball thought he clearly won it. At least he didnt' deal Scott Kazmir away.

He did acquire John Maine and Oliver Perez for peanuts on the dollar. He signed Beltran, Pedro, Delgado and Billy Wagner. Those are huge moves dude.

He has put together a World Series caliber team. There is no reason they shouldn't have been the hands down favorite to have won it all.


lol, I'm actually not a Mets fan, it was just that I was defending Willie to a Mets fan saying that he doesn't really have that good a team. He has a a lot of names, but are really dependent on 2-3 players on offense, which were Reyes, Wright, and Beltran. When one of them goes quiet, the team struggles. And during the Mets collapse, 2 of the 3 fell apart. Only Wright stayed good. Beltran has overall numbers during that span because he had some huge games but he wasn't consistant. And Reyes fell apart. But Willie didn't really have a reliable bullpen or a starting pitching. That coinciding with 2 of their 3 offensive stars was the reason that the Mets fell apart. Any manager would have looked foolish with how the pitching fell apart. But then he countered with how great Omar is, and how he rebuilt the Expos, so I thought I'd do a bit of research on him. The draft comes from another GM analysis I did on the BlueJays GM.

But my whole contention is that, they don't really have any type of back up in this team. The Yankees were favorites make the playoffs, but what they had was a backup plan, which were minor leauge kids that came up big. What they had was one plan, then a failure of that plan came to fruition, and they were able to inject youth to bring the team back to life. What the Mets lacked was that injection of youth, especially in pitching.

At full health, yes, they were the favorites in the NL, but they weren't. And then a mis-timed slump for 2 of their 3 vital offensive players doomed them. In my opinion, those 3 players, and the rest of their offense, masked an aging pitching staff that was going to wear down. And in the end, the pitching blew up, and they had no replacements.


Signing Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, and Wagner doesnt make you smart. Any GM who had the resources would go after bonafide all star players. The only one that had some kind of risk was Pedro b/c of his injury concerns and at this point I think its fair to call that signing a bust b/c he wasnt healthy all year and the odds on him being healthy from here on out dont look great.

Maine and Perez are his crowning achievements but on the opposite end you have Bannister and Heath Bell. I agree with the original poster that he deserves the majority of the blame. There have been questions surrounding every member of the pitching staff at some point this year, bullpen included, and he did nothing at the trade deadline on top of not doing much in the offseason to address those issues. Maine and Perez were breaking down before the trade deadline and those were their two best pitchers. All he did was get Castillo which was really not neccessary with Gotay and the rest of their hitting. There is a legitimate gripe their if you are a Mets fan.



Yeah, thats why I left out the signings, because basically they all signed with the most money. Yeah, Pedro was a risk, and I do agree that he can be a bust.

The problem was Maine and Perez are good complimentary pitchers, who look great as a No. 3 or 4, but on the Mets they were aces at one point or another in the season. The whole pitching staff was thin, with little or no back up in the minors, and Omar failed to realize that when he had the opportunity to do something about it. And as the old guys in the starting rotation broke down or wore down, the bullpen got that much more work, to the point they were set up to fail.

Don't get me wrong, they were the better team than the Nationals and Marlins, but the difference at that point wasn't as large as the names would imply. A team worn down with old players against old players relishing the thought of playing spoiler was a deadly mismatch for the Mets season.

#5 ewanbrown

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:24 PM

The draft comes from another GM analysis I did on the BlueJays GM.



I'd be interested in reading that if you've still got it B)
www.atpfantasybaseball.com

#6 DrewFine

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:35 PM

I give you credit for looking up all that info.
Im not a huge Omar fan but ill defend him a little.

You can find a ton of GM's who draft results are the same as that. MLB draft is that hardest to predict out of all major sports simply because you are dealing with so many variables such as the abundance of high school player and the fact that you can draft a high school or college player and they dont sign and go back to school and back into the draft. That doesnt happen in any other sport. I dont count hockey and guys playing overseas. According to attendance and ratings hockey hasnt been a sport in years.lol
No GM, Omar included, goes to see high school and college guys play so they draft based on the advice from his scouts.

As far as trades go you cant say he made a bad trade by trading Cameron for Nady and then say he made a good trade by trading Nady for R.Hernandez and Oliver Perez. A little contradiction there.

Also you cant look at the name value of all these trades to determine if he was a winner or loser. Some trades were made as salary dumps. Some players cant play in NY and need to be traded. Other players a had behind the scenes issue which required them to be traded. For example I dont know if you are from NY but if you are you would know a player like Heath Bell had many issues with the organization and staff and basically ran himself out of town.

Also lets wait and see about some of the more recent mores. Im not ready to crown Brian Bannister, Henry Owens Matt Lindstrom, Heath Bell and Royce Ring yet. Burgos was high risk high reward so far it hasnt panned out but im not willing to give up on a 23yr old pitcher who throws in the high 90s. Ben Johnson was supposed to help provide some depth in the OF. With Alou's injury history and Green also up ther in age Johnson was going to provide some depth. The Mets also were not counting on Carlos Gomez playing as well as he did and after last season who knew what MIlledge was going to be. Plus he is always trade bait.

With all that being said Willie is one of the worst in game managers I have seen. On a nightly basis his decisions totally baffle me.
One thing he learned from Joe Torre is how to overwork his bullpen. He rides pitchers til their arm falls off. And then everyone blames the pitcher for not performing. If I have to listen to him say in a press conference one more time that after a loss that the team battled ,im gonna shot myself.

I could go on all night but thats some of my thoughts on the matter

#7 The King Maker

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:36 PM

I'd be interested in reading that if you've still got it B)



Yeah, I got it, so I'll send it to your PM box, since I don't think there is too much interest in the Jays right now.

#8 Modock

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:38 PM

The King Maker = Steve Phillips

#9 Luckynines

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:47 PM

Your thread makes me head hurt after a long day at the office.
"God is living in New York, and he's a Mets fan."

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#10 The Czar

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:47 PM

I think the signings are a good measure of a GM though. Yeah, they paid a ton, but it takes a good GM to get them to finalize. It is easy to look at some of those names and somehow blame Minaya, but let's be realistic, Delgado and Beltran are supposed to be much better. You can't blame Randolph or Minaya for those short comings.

Let's be realistic though. That farm system was way broken when Minaya got there.

Kazmir should have been the #1 in that rotation.

He took Pelfrey, who every scout in the nation said has #1 stuff. I havent' seen it yet, but he was a consensus pick by everyone there, so was it really a mistake? He should have developed by now.

Humber was also supposed to be a stud and he had to have TJ.

Everyone in the baseball world thought Minaya stole Burgos and that he was the closer of the future. Bannister looked very average. Hindsight is always 20/20 and Burgos could still come back.

Lastings Milledge could still turn into a star. Minaya almost dealt him to SF last year for Jason Schmidt. I think he made the right call there. They could still deal Gomez or Milledge for an arm at this point.

"The Big Picture: Rankings Combined With Non-Rookies 25 Years Old Or Younger (As Of Opening Day 2007)
1. Jose Reyes, ss
2. David Wright, 3b
3. Lastings Milledge, cf/lf
4. Fernando Martinez, cf
5. Philip Humber, rhp
6. Mike Pelfrey, rhp
7. Carlos Gomez, of
8. Oliver Perez, rhp
9. John Maine, rhp
10. Ambiorix Burgos, rhp "

From Baseball prospectus. That is still a pretty good list man. The Mets have a bright future. They just need to draft some more pitching and fill in some of the holes and we all know that there is no shortage of money in NY.

Honestly, I wish my teams future looked so bright. So far it looks like Minaya and the Mets got hit hard by injuries to the staff. Burgos, Humber, Sanchez, Pedro, etc. etc. If those guys stay healthy, we may be talking about what a genious Minaya is.
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#11 The King Maker

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 09:53 PM

I give you credit for looking up all that info.
Im not a huge Omar fan but ill defend him a little.

You can find a ton of GM's who draft results are the same as that. MLB draft is that hardest to predict out of all major sports simply because you are dealing with so many variables such as the abundance of high school player and the fact that you can draft a high school or college player and they dont sign and go back to school and back into the draft. That doesnt happen in any other sport. I dont count hockey and guys playing overseas. According to attendance and ratings hockey hasnt been a sport in years.lol
No GM, Omar included, goes to see high school and college guys play so they draft based on the advice from his scouts.

As far as trades go you cant say he made a bad trade by trading Cameron for Nady and then say he made a good trade by trading Nady for R.Hernandez and Oliver Perez. A little contradiction there.

Also you cant look at the name value of all these trades to determine if he was a winner or loser. Some trades were made as salary dumps. Some players cant play in NY and need to be traded. Other players a had behind the scenes issue which required them to be traded. For example I dont know if you are from NY but if you are you would know a player like Heath Bell had many issues with the organization and staff and basically ran himself out of town.

Also lets wait and see about some of the more recent mores. Im not ready to crown Brian Bannister, Henry Owens Matt Lindstrom, Heath Bell and Royce Ring yet. Burgos was high risk high reward so far it hasnt panned out but im not willing to give up on a 23yr old pitcher who throws in the high 90s. Ben Johnson was supposed to help provide some depth in the OF. With Alou's injury history and Green also up ther in age Johnson was going to provide some depth. The Mets also were not counting on Carlos Gomez playing as well as he did and after last season who knew what MIlledge was going to be. Plus he is always trade bait.

With all that being said Willie is one of the worst in game managers I have seen. On a nightly basis his decisions totally baffle me.
One thing he learned from Joe Torre is how to overwork his bullpen. He rides pitchers til their arm falls off. And then everyone blames the pitcher for not performing. If I have to listen to him say in a press conference one more time that after a loss that the team battled ,im gonna shot myself.

I could go on all night but thats some of my thoughts on the matter



I mean, I understand that the draft is pretty much a crapshoot, but its part of his job. Just like the stock market can be a crap shoot, but if a stock analyst keeps making mistakes, at one point or another he has to be held accountable. For a lot of years, Brian Cashman was the biggest fool in the draft, from about 1998 (When he took over) to 2002, he basically got nothing in the draft. Then the organization decided to change its philosophies about drafting and young kids, brought in Damon Oppenheimer, and their minor leauges is great now. At what point do you say Omar is not a great GM, but merely average or below average?

Well my whole point on Cameron is that Cameron is a better player than Nady, which thus makes him more valuable. Omar sold low on Cameron and got Nady, which was not a good deal for Cameron's talents, which is a good CF, who can still hit. However, he rectifies that mistake by taking Nady and selling high on him for Perez. Think of it this way. He took a dollar, and sold it for 80 cents, then took that 80 cents and sold it for a dollar.

Heath Bell had issues, but he was also mishandled by the team. He was never really given a chance to make his mark, but was forced into the action out of the minors and expected to perform, and then when he faltered, he went back and forth with the minors.

Bannister is a possible ROY candidate (although I think Pedroia will win it) while Burgos is having TJ surgery. Now, that knocks him out for next year to begin with. Then pitchers who have TJ surgery take one year to recover their control and all, so basically knocks him out for 2 years. He was someone who had control issues to begin with, so that isn't good. It usually is the 3rd year after surgery (their second season back at full strength) that they return to normal full effectiveness, if at all. So thats 2 years where Bannister won't have to do anything to still be better in the trade. I agree Burgos has a nice arm, but he has no clue where that ball is going.

Milledge for some reason seems to be a trouble magnet. Ever since he came up, all I hear about him is controversy. They had some thing about him celebrating in the Marlins game on Saturday and how that made the Marlins upset or something. Gomez seemed good, and has some really nice speed, but I don't know about his plate approach.

I do agree with that about Willie though, a lot of blah comments after the game like "We fought hard" - "He pitched good, just made some mistakes" - "I was pleased with the performance, just didn't get the right result" type comments after devastating losses are hard to take. My whole point was that Omar seems to get a free pass, when he really shouldn't.

#12 prbravesfan

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:04 PM

Skip Caray singing his version of "Beat the Mets" in last Braves TBS game must see, it's priceless:


--------------
Yahoo 12 team MLB H2H League

C-V.Martinez
1B-Chris Davis
2B-Brandon Phillips
3B-A.Gordon
SS-Rollins
OF-Ichiro/Milton Bradley/Granderson
UTIL/BNCH-Yunel Escobar/Jordan Schafer/Hawpe/Carlos Guillen/Salty/Teahen




SP-Gallardo/Lackey/Kershaw/Jered Weaver/Dice-K/Kyle Davies/Porcello
RP-Mike Gonzalez/Balfour

#13 The King Maker

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:11 PM

The King Maker = Steve Phillips


lol, that actually did make me laugh


Your thread makes me head hurt after a long day at the office.


Imagine having a best friend who is a Mets fan who hasn't stopped talking about how he hates everyone on the team for 3 days now.

I think the signings are a good measure of a GM though. Yeah, they paid a ton, but it takes a good GM to get them to finalize. It is easy to look at some of those names and somehow blame Minaya, but let's be realistic, Delgado and Beltran are supposed to be much better. You can't blame Randolph or Minaya for those short comings.

Let's be realistic though. That farm system was way broken when Minaya got there.

Kazmir should have been the #1 in that rotation.

He took Pelfrey, who every scout in the nation said has #1 stuff. I havent' seen it yet, but he was a consensus pick by everyone there, so was it really a mistake? He should have developed by now.

Humber was also supposed to be a stud and he had to have TJ.

Everyone in the baseball world thought Minaya stole Burgos and that he was the closer of the future. Bannister looked very average. Hindsight is always 20/20 and Burgos could still come back.

Lastings Milledge could still turn into a star. Minaya almost dealt him to SF last year for Jason Schmidt. I think he made the right call there. They could still deal Gomez or Milledge for an arm at this point.

"The Big Picture: Rankings Combined With Non-Rookies 25 Years Old Or Younger (As Of Opening Day 2007)
1. Jose Reyes, ss
2. David Wright, 3b
3. Lastings Milledge, cf/lf
4. Fernando Martinez, cf
5. Philip Humber, rhp
6. Mike Pelfrey, rhp
7. Carlos Gomez, of
8. Oliver Perez, rhp
9. John Maine, rhp
10. Ambiorix Burgos, rhp "

From Baseball prospectus. That is still a pretty good list man. The Mets have a bright future. They just need to draft some more pitching and fill in some of the holes and we all know that there is no shortage of money in NY.

Honestly, I wish my teams future looked so bright. So far it looks like Minaya and the Mets got hit hard by injuries to the staff. Burgos, Humber, Sanchez, Pedro, etc. etc. If those guys stay healthy, we may be talking about what a genious Minaya is.



Well the signings get dilouted a whole lot because there wasn't much risk behind Beltran or Wagner because they were proven players that only injuries could slow them down, which wasn't indicitive in their past records. Pedro was an injury risk because his stuff was diminishing, so that was a risk, and thats been meh so far. But Beltran and Wagner weren't much of a risk, it was just the money. All you basically had to do was give them the money, and with his resources in NY, he had no problem doing. And I didn't list any of the free agents he signed in Montreal because he obviously didn't have much of a budget there either. Only one I critcized was the Vlad one, where he knew he couldn't afford him, but still decided to not trade him, and lost him for draft picks.

Yeah, but most drafts occur that way. Its the GM and their scouts job to find the gems, the real stars. Pelfrey only really has one pitch, and thats the sinking fastball. Now that pitch is very good, but he needs more pitches. And he hasn't developed any other pitches, and at one point or another, Omar has to be held accountable. Humber came from Rice University, and if there is a program know to abuse its pitchers, its Rice. They get great success out of them in college, a lot of them are drafted high, but they tire out or get injured in the minors or majors. Just going there is enough of an injury risk. But also injuries are part of the landscape. If Carl Pavano was healthy, I'm sure that signing for the Yankees doesn't look half as bad as it does right now.

A lot of analysts thought the Liriano, Nathan, Bonser trade was a win for the Giants. I remember ESPN having those trade grade articles at the deadline that year, and it had Perzinski (I know I killed the spelling, but you know who I'm talking about) was an All Star catcher, and would really help the Giants, and how all they gave up was a struggling starter who was converted to a relief pitcher (Did good in that role), a low A ball lefty prospect who will probably become another reliever, and another pitching prospect in Bonser who wasn't that highly thought of. Right now, that trade looks pretty bad and Sabean looks like a fool for making it. Hindsight does factor in when looking at trades. Its not like any GM is going to make a trade that looks stupid the moment he makes it (ok ok, anyone NOT named Steve Philiphs or Dan Duquette).

#14 ZorShot

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:15 PM

Great post by the OP. Without question the most laid out, well researched (so long as factually correct) and analytical post I have ever read on this site...

Just to wanted to ad a couple of things. Although I am no fan of Omar and feel he is vastly overrated I would like to point out:
1. Having money for FA signings does not automatically lead to improivement of team (see mets circa - bonilla, saberhagen and vince coleman days or more recently - the mo vaughn, rob alomar team...Plus lets not forget the Yanks from the 80's till mid 90's)..So you have to Omar some credit for spending wisely, which leads to my second point.
2. For some reason, Met fans are so used to not being good that whenever they are decent - the fans go googoogaga
The signings of Pedro and Beltran made the Mets relevant again in NY. They won their 1st division title in 20 years. This is why many Met fans praise Omar to a fault. The Mets overall lack of success blinds fans to think OK GMs are great.

And besides after Duquette, I think anyone following would be considered great.

Maybe getting raped the way he did in the Colon trade, prevented him from trading for Buerhle and Dye at the deadline?
Dont argue with fools, cause people from a distance can't tell who's who

#15 fitz22415

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:25 PM

great post

#16 The Czar

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:29 PM

Maybe getting raped the way he did in the Colon trade, prevented him from trading for Buerhle and Dye at the deadline?



I still think it goes back to Kazmir with that franchise. I heard that is why they didn't pull the string on Milledge for Schmidt. The Kazmir debacle has made the entire franchise gunshy.

it is a very good post.
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#17 Torontoguy

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:35 PM

Even though Minaya is grossly overrated, I think your assessment of his drafting is unfair. The Expos at that time did not have money to sign the top picks, so had to take lower calibre players. Also, going through and looking at all the possible players is a little absurd. even the best drafters, make many, many mistakes. Every single GM has a poor record if you look at it like this.

The most incredible thing about your post is that you pick on the small things and ignore the big. Minaya made one of the worst sequence of trades EVER! He obtained Bartolo Colon for Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips. That is superstar youth right there...Six months later, SIX MONTHS, he traded Colon for El Duque (who never pitched an inning for the Expos) Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. So, Minaya turned Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips into six months of Colon, Rocky Biddle, and Jeff Liefer. For that move alone, he should be forced to walk the world the rest of his days with a giant S on his forehead. There was a lot of praise for Minaya for assembling this team, but he had a tonne of money and bought Delgado, Wagner, Pedro, and Beltran which was hardly a work of skill. His inability to get another reliever despite their obvious need this year,killed them. He is not the worst GM, but he's certainly not near the top either. (Send me your work on Ricciardi. I think he's even more overrated!!)

#18 The King Maker

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:43 PM

Great post by the OP. Without question the most laid out, well researched (so long as factually correct) and analytical post I have ever read on this site...

Just to wanted to ad a couple of things. Although I am no fan of Omar and feel he is vastly overrated I would like to point out:
1. Having money for FA signings does not automatically lead to improivement of team (see mets circa - bonilla, saberhagen and vince coleman days or more recently - the mo vaughn, rob alomar team...Plus lets not forget the Yanks from the 80's till mid 90's)..So you have to Omar some credit for spending wisely, which leads to my second point.
2. For some reason, Met fans are so used to not being good that whenever they are decent - the fans go googoogaga
The signings of Pedro and Beltran made the Mets relevant again in NY. They won their 1st division title in 20 years. This is why many Met fans praise Omar to a fault. The Mets overall lack of success blinds fans to think OK GMs are great.

And besides after Duquette, I think anyone following would be considered great.

Maybe getting raped the way he did in the Colon trade, prevented him from trading for Buerhle and Dye at the deadline?



Thanks I did put some effort into this one.

I used baseball reference for the trades, but just looking at the transactions list corresponding to the time Omar was the GM. I left out trades that were minor (Like all the players involved were people that no one really ever heard of), but most of the trades are there. The drafts are done with the draft tracker from the official draft site, but looking at players who were picked up after Omar picked and right before his next pick, so it say goes from say the middle of the 1st round (If Omar was picking say 16th) to the middle of say the second round right before Omar picks again. I listed most of the good prospects that I think have a good shot at contributing. Although there could be some prospects like say on the Rangers (Other than Mayberry and all) that may be good, but just the fact that I never really knew about them could make them slip. But on the Mets and all, I'm pretty sure I'm familiar with their prospects so if anything the PoP should only increase.

Yeah, just the reason I left out the signings was that he's at an advantage. Like we all knew was Beltran was good, it was just signing him. But if I praise Omar for signing him, wouldn't then I have to blame Purpura (or the Astros GM) for letting him go? But they weren't on the same terms as Omar could blow the Astros out of the picture with money. Thats really why I kinda avoided the signings with him, because its kinda grey to analyze.

Living in NY, I do think that is true. When Steve Philiphs brought in Roberto Alomar, Mo Vaughn, Jermey Burnitz and all, Mets fans were going nuts thinking this was going to just roll over teams. Obviously didn't work that way, and fans turned on him, but when it happened, all I could hear on talk radio was the "New Mets".

#19 The King Maker

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:50 PM

Even though Minaya is grossly overrated, I think your assessment of his drafting is unfair. The Expos at that time did not have money to sign the top picks, so had to take lower calibre players. Also, going through and looking at all the possible players is a little absurd. even the best drafters, make many, many mistakes. Every single GM has a poor record if you look at it like this.

The most incredible thing about your post is that you pick on the small things and ignore the big. Minaya made one of the worst sequence of trades EVER! He obtained Bartolo Colon for Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips. That is superstar youth right there...Six months later, SIX MONTHS, he traded Colon for El Duque (who never pitched an inning for the Expos) Rocky Biddle and Jeff Liefer. So, Minaya turned Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips into six months of Colon, Rocky Biddle, and Jeff Liefer. For that move alone, he should be forced to walk the world the rest of his days with a giant S on his forehead. There was a lot of praise for Minaya for assembling this team, but he had a tonne of money and bought Delgado, Wagner, Pedro, and Beltran which was hardly a work of skill. His inability to get another reliever despite their obvious need this year,killed them. He is not the worst GM, but he's certainly not near the top either. (Send me your work on Ricciardi. I think he's even more overrated!!)


A lot of GM's struggle with the draft, some like Beane, the Yankkes past 2003, the Dodgers, The Rockies, all seem to do well, so I would give them credit. I don't really know how to analyze the Devil Rays drafting because they always pick high. But those others should get credit.

I did post the Colon trade and the spin after it, but everyone knows he got his head handed to him on that trade, so thats why I didn't really look to put that much focus on it as maybe the trade dictates.

Yeah, when I made the post, my whole point wasn't that Omar should be fired and sent on an island, my whole point was that he's just not as good as people think he seems to be. He's made his share of good trades, its just that he's done a lot of bad trades too.

I'll send the Riccardi one to you in PM, I just did the draft on him, as I did it around the draft this season.

#20 AdropOFvenom

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 03:12 AM

I'm a Mets fan, but to me alot of the criticism here is unfair. Particuarly about his Montreal days.

1) Draft

First of all, when Minaya was the GM for Montreal, the team was still owned by Major League Baseball and he was not allowed to pay anything over slot money when it came to drafting prospects. Most of those guys you listed who he didn't draft was because there was no way that Montreal would have been able to sign them. He had to draft guys who were going to be signable and that makes him appear worse in the draft then he was, not necessairily because he couldn't judge personell, but because he had to draft the best player who was signable, not the best player available.

You're sitting here and ripping him on the draft, but you're forgetting that the draft is a complete crapshoot. I believe it was Billy Beane who said it the best in that you're going into the average draft hoping that 2 of the 50 players you select will eventually become Big Leaguers. 2 out of 50. If you had that kind of success rate in any other buisness you would automatically be fired. So you can sit here and rip on Minaya for not selecting Joe Zumaya in the 11th round all you want, but if anybody thought that Zumaya was going to become the player that he is today then he wouldn't have been available that late.

Say what you want about Mike Pelfrey, but as you showed, the heavy majority of people that came out from his draft class are still in the Minor Leagues, so he's been more advanced then his counterparts to date. His lack of a true second pitch is a bit concerning, but at the same time he just trashed his Curveball in favor of a Slider this spring so you should be expecting some growing pains in the process until he masters that pitch, and his Sinker was showing alot of potential this September. It's still early, he's going to improve.

As for the rest of the Mets picks, to a degree he's handicapped himself by being so active in Free Agency as the Mets haven't had a First Rounder either of the last 2 years. But even so, Most people around the Mets expect Jonathan Niese, Robert Parnell, and Kevin Mulvey to be Big Leaguers at some point, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the rest of them. Obviously none of them are what you would call 'top prospects' but Mulvey did play in the Futures game this year so it's not exactly like he's a nobody either.

What you also dismiss when evaluating Omar is the job he has done recruiting talent from overseas. Since he has joined the Mets he has signed prospects like Fernando Martinez, Deolis Guerra (Both were a part of the Futures game, although Martinez didn't play due to Injury), Francisco Pena (Although he hasn't been overly productive to date), and and a real young prospect who you really be keeping your eyes on in Ruben Tejada. His job in international scouting has been among the best in baseball during the last few years.

2) Trades

Again, at the time Minaya was the GM of the Nationals, they were being owned by Major League Baseball who prevented him from adding any real salaries, and those salaries that they had, he had to trade. There were many outside factors on these deals that you're not considering when attempting to evaluate them at face value.

"Traded Jason Bay and Jimmy Serrano to the Mets for Lou Collier. Its one thing to trade a future star like Bay for nothing, but its an insane event when anyone, and I do repeat ANYONE gets fleeced by the great Steve Philips. Philips obviously made up for this great move by trading Bay away for nothing. So Omar has lost that trade too, and in horrible fashion"

Nobody thought anything of Jason Bay at the time. He wasn't a can't miss prospect, He wasn't a prospect at all really, Just a minor league body who happened to turn into something special for Pittsburgh. The Expos, Mets, and Padres had all traded him and nobody thought anything of it at the time.

"Then Omar does his masterstroke: He trades Lee Steven, Brandon Philips (now a 30-30 second baseman), Grady Seizmore (a superstar CF), Cliff Lee (a good 4th starter on an NL team), for half a season rental of Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew. To say he got his rear end kicked in this deal, is putting it lightly.

Then Omar traded Carl Pavano, Graeme Lloyd, Mike Mordecai, Justin Wayne, for a rental of Cliff Floyd, Wilton Guerrerro, Claudio Vargas (The same idiot hetraded for again this season). Again Omar loses a trade as Pavano had one very good season before becoming the laughing stock of the Free Agent world with the Yankees."

Montreal was competitive for the first few months of that season and thought they were in contention. They had to plead with the other owners to allow them to add some payroll in order to attempt to make a legitimite run at a Division title in order to give their fans some hope. So yes, they had depleated their farm system, but at the same time it was their city needed something that they could hang their hat on as they had been without success for god knows how long. Nevermind that I don't see how Cliff Floyd for Carl Pavano is a win for either side...I'd call that trade a push.

By the way, it was Jason Vargas he re-traded for this year, not Claudio Vargas.

"He trade Cliff Floyd to the RedSox for Sun-Woo Kim and Seung Song. He loses ANOTHER trade. "

Montreal fell out of contention and Major League Baseball forced Minaya to trade him. It's also why he was unable to get much of value in that trade, as every GM knew that Floyd had to be unloaded to somewhere. It's not fair to criticize Minaya for that one.

"Then Omar trades Bartolo Colon and Jorge Nunez to the WhiteSox, for Rocky Biddle, El Duque, and Jeff Leifer, which again he loses, because he paid way too much to get Colon in the first place, and gets nothing in return basically."

Major League Baseball forced Minaya to trade Colon as the owners were no longer willing to pay for him, which is why that deal went down. It's also why he was unable to get much of value in that trade, as every GM knew that Colon had to be unloaded to somewhere. It's not fair to criticize Minaya for that one.

"Traded Mike Cameron to the Padres for Xavier Nady: I don't know if Cameron could cut it here, but he is still a better player than Nady, I'd say Omar lost this one."

That trade was a salary dump, (Plus Cameron wanted out after the Beltran signing) and I'd say that Xavier Nady for league minimum was a better value then Mike Cameron for 6 or 7 million a year all things considered.

"Traded Heath Bell and Royce Ring for Jon Adkins and Ben Johnson. Omar got his head handed to him on this one."

Heath Bell was given plenty of opportunity to pitch in New York and just couldn't get the job done. It was clear that he was never going to make it in New York.

"Traded Brian Bannister for Ambrorix Burgos, another trade where Omar loses badly"

Junk Throwing Righty Starter for an Electric Throwing Righty Reliever with Future Closer written all over him. You'd make that trade every single time if given the chance. It just happened that Burgos happened to get injured and Bannister has gotten extremely lucky judging by his BABIP. I have the feeling that in 2-3 years this deal will not look anywheres near as bad as it looks now.

"Traded Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom for Jason Vargas, another trade he loses out badly"

Older Righty Project Arms, Owens who has a funky delivery that makes him real injury prone, and Lindstrom at the time was all heat and no secondary pitches (Credit Florida for developing him if anything) for Young Lefty Project Arms. I have the feeling that in 2-3 years this deal will not look anywheres near as bad as it looks now when Jason Vargas is pitching for the Mets.

-----

Overall, the fact of the matter is that Omar Minaya had a 2 year run in 2005-2006 that was nothing short of excellent where everything he touched turned to Gold. That's why he has the reputation that he does today, and a couple 'bad trades' this Offseason (Even though it's really too early to judge those trades) isn't going to change the fact that before he came to the Mets they averaged 71 wins in the 3 years before he came and since he came they've averaged 89 wins. What other kind of GM has an +18 game average yearly turnaround from his predecessor?

Edited by AdropOFvenom, 03 October 2007 - 03:16 AM.