1024 replies to this topic

[Major]

pikerbkb, on 05 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Major, on 05 January 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Lol oh come on. If you're a great RB, you are a great RB. McCoy is one of the best in the game and will produce wherever he goes. I could see if you were talking about an unproven back like an Alfred Morris or BJGE when he was on NE, where it seems like both were the large benefits of the offensive system they were in, but not a proven star like McCoy.

Wow, it's that easy to do analysis? "If you're good, you're good?" C'mon. I love it when people knee jerk just to stir things up. Read what I wrote and keep it in context. No denying he is a great back, he has been highly productive in ONE SYSTEM. It follows that he would be productive if used the same way. On the edges, in space, improv and occasionally between the tackles. McCoy is not a pounder and would not last in a system where he has to make his living between the tackles and in the middle of the field. That's not how he was used in Reid's system. Hopefully for McCoy and McCoy owners, Lurie will hire a coach that understands this. Another scenario is that Lurie hires a coach who wants to run a power game and Brown becomes more involved in the offense. Suddenly McCoy is not an every down back.

To go a bit further, look at DMC as an example. Having a total s--- time in a zone-blocking scheme. Doesn't suit him. I guarantee if you put him in the Reid's offense scheme and we are talking about McFadden having a break out year.

It's unfair to say "if he was in a system where he goes between the tackles" because that's not his game; doesn't mean he still isn't a top-5 RB in the NFL. There's only one AP in the league, he's the only one that can perform at such a high level in any situation.

McCoy's downfall this year was a depleted o-line and Reid's blind faith in the passing game. It had nothing to do with a new offensive scheme. This is the same scheme that saw McCoy get 20 touchdowns just 1 year ago.

And DMC's problems stem farther than just a new blocking scheme.

[pikerbkb]

Major, on 05 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

pikerbkb, on 05 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Major, on 05 January 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Lol oh come on. If you're a great RB, you are a great RB. McCoy is one of the best in the game and will produce wherever he goes. I could see if you were talking about an unproven back like an Alfred Morris or BJGE when he was on NE, where it seems like both were the large benefits of the offensive system they were in, but not a proven star like McCoy.

Wow, it's that easy to do analysis? "If you're good, you're good?" C'mon. I love it when people knee jerk just to stir things up. Read what I wrote and keep it in context. No denying he is a great back, he has been highly productive in ONE SYSTEM. It follows that he would be productive if used the same way. On the edges, in space, improv and occasionally between the tackles. McCoy is not a pounder and would not last in a system where he has to make his living between the tackles and in the middle of the field. That's not how he was used in Reid's system. Hopefully for McCoy and McCoy owners, Lurie will hire a coach that understands this. Another scenario is that Lurie hires a coach who wants to run a power game and Brown becomes more involved in the offense. Suddenly McCoy is not an every down back.

To go a bit further, look at DMC as an example. Having a total s--- time in a zone-blocking scheme. Doesn't suit him. I guarantee if you put him in the Reid's offense scheme and we are talking about McFadden having a break out year.

It's unfair to say "if he was in a system where he goes between the tackles" because that's not his game; doesn't mean he still isn't a top-5 RB in the NFL. There's only one AP in the league, he's the only one that can perform at such a high level in any situation.

McCoy's downfall this year was a depleted o-line and Reid's blind faith in the passing game. It had nothing to do with a new offensive scheme. This is the same scheme that saw McCoy get 20 touchdowns just 1 year ago.

And DMC's problems stem farther than just a new blocking scheme.

I agree, DMC has got several issues, but even Greg Cosell, who I highly respect as an analyst has said a zone blocking scheme does not fit DMC's skill set. What happened in that situation? The ownership hired a coach who thought he knew better/didn't give a damn and was going to install a zone blocking scheme no matter what....to the detriment of DMC.He is not a "one-cut and go" runner. All I am saying is McCoy's value and production is a little up in the air right now. We don't know who the HC coach is going to be and the line play is still not that good.

[cbe_88]

pikerbkb, on 05 January 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

cbe_88, on 04 January 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

rraayy3, on 04 January 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

i guess it's open to interpretation ... i'm judging him just off his talent/athletic ability. he looked awful in a couple games ... he looked like adrian peterson in a couple games ... the production may not be there consistently for him to warrant "elite" status ...but the talent is definitely there for him to reach that level.

that's all i meant.

The talent is definitely there for him TO REACH that level...precisely.

We'll see if he can get there. He's in line to be covered up by a true and already elite talent in McCoy for at least the immediate future of his career. We'll see if he ends up getting or competing for a starting gig somewhere else, cuz McCoy isn't going anywhere. And Lesean is 24 years young, still qualifies as young buck in my book. BB seems to have little chance of maximizing this talent of his in Philly especially with McCoy not exactly one likely to miss extended time. Pretty durable dude.

Hope he gets a starting gig somewhere else, but I don't see how Philly lets him go either. Hopefully, while being 2nd on the depth chart for now he learns how to not bounce EVERY single run to the outside. If he can become a complete back he could be lethal.

I think these are exaggerations and you need to look a little deeper to make your analysis. Brown and McCoy are two totally different types of backs. For one thing, Brown ran between the tackles on quite a few runs, but yea, he did bounce outside on many of his runs. That can be fixed. Second, McCoy was "durable" because of the system he ran in where he wasn't asked to run between the tackles a lot. He was allowed to improvise, catch the ball in space, avoid contact....McCoy is not a very physical back and it would be interesting to see how he would hold up in a power running game. McCoy's and Brown's future is going to depend a lot on who takes over as head coach and what scheme is installed. Plus this is a total rebuilding job. McCoy may not be the same runner once he has to play in a new system that may not suit his style.

Yes it was exaggeration...I wasn't trying to claim that he actually bounced every single running play he ran to the outside, hyperbole: exxageration to get a point across, lol and that point was a flaw in his game. And you're right, that can be fixed, that's why I said in my original post that if he can fix his flaws, he'll be lethal.

And at this point, it would be difficult to misuse a talent like McCoy, I think everyone would at least have a good idea on how to maximize an incredible talent like McCoy. 20 TD's later in his 2011 campaign, I don't think there's a coach in this league that if they got their hands on McCoy wouldn't get him in space with receptions and running plays that cater to that. And it's not like he's an inferior runner in between the tackles, it's just not his forte due to him being so elusive when he gets going in space. But you make a good point that DMC was misused, so it's entirely possible, just unlikely with a blueprint on how to use a back on McCoy by putting on his 2011 tape.

The reason for the lack of success this year wasn't really misuse, as one pointed out earlier, it was Reid's blind confidence in the passing game and obsession to redeem Vick. McCoy had to make guys miss IN THE BACKFIELD, routinely with a horrid O-line that held him back all season. Vick also ignored too many dump passes he could have made to McCoy in space which made me sick (I owned him). The only misuse I say was simply not using him enough. When they actually used him, he produced for as much as his O-line would allow him to.

And I agree, it completely depends on what coach is brought in here, to see whether McCoy stays as a true workhorse or BB gets some time. With a new coach there's always a good chance for a lot of change. Personally, best case scenario for BB is that he'll be McCoy's Bernard Pierce that Ray Rice has in Baltimore. It's not a knock on BB, I just think that McCoy is too talented and established there himself. If BB is maximized I see it being on another team, before I see it being in Philly, but that's just me. It's entirely possible he is maximized anywhere, however, due to his talent.

[pikerbkb]

Quote

Yes it was exaggeration...I wasn't trying to claim that he actually bounced every single running play he ran to the outside, hyperbole: exxageration to get a point across, lol and that point was a flaw in his game. And you're right, that can be fixed, that's why I said in my original post that if he can fix his flaws, he'll be lethal.

And at this point, it would be difficult to misuse a talent like McCoy, I think everyone would at least have a good idea on how to maximize an incredible talent like McCoy. 20 TD's later in his 2011 campaign, I don't think there's a coach in this league that if they got their hands on McCoy wouldn't get him in space with receptions and running plays that cater to that. And it's not like he's an inferior runner in between the tackles, it's just not his forte due to him being so elusive when he gets going in space. But you make a good point that DMC was misused, so it's entirely possible, just unlikely with a blueprint on how to use a back on McCoy by putting on his 2011 tape.

The reason for the lack of success this year wasn't really misuse, as one pointed out earlier, it was Reid's blind confidence in the passing game and obsession to redeem Vick. McCoy had to make guys miss IN THE BACKFIELD, routinely with a horrid O-line that held him back all season. Vick also ignored too many dump passes he could have made to McCoy in space which made me sick (I owned him). The only misuse I say was simply not using him enough. When they actually used him, he produced for as much as his O-line would allow him to.
And I agree, it completely depends on what coach is brought in here, to see whether McCoy stays as a true workhorse or BB gets some time. With a new coach there's always a good chance for a lot of change. Personally, best case scenario for BB is that he'll be McCoy's Bernard Pierce that Ray Rice has in Baltimore. It's not a knock on BB, I just think that McCoy is too talented and established there himself. If BB is maximized I see it being on another team, before I see it being in Philly, but that's just me. It's entirely possible he is maximized anywhere, however, due to his talent.

I think I mentioned the horrible line play, but not the misuse. I agree, I think the root cause of his lack of production was still the bad line play. It was this factor that cause Reid to change his play calling....looking back, I also think that the horrid defense played a part in Vick's poor play as well. I think Vick struggled this year, but he was under constant pressure to make a big play since the Philly defense couldn't stop ANYONE. Combine that with a lot of 2nd/3rd and longs and you get a triggerman that is constantly pressing. All the while the o-line is a sieve. Vick rarely had a clean pocket to throw from and was constantly running for his life....in football, everything affects everything.

"And at this point, it would be difficult to misuse a talent like McCoy, I think everyone would at least have a good idea on how to maximize an incredible talent like McCoy. 20 TD's later in his 2011 campaign, I don't think there's a coach in this league that if they got their hands on McCoy wouldn't get him in space with receptions and running plays that cater to that." Cam Cameron, Romeo Crennel and Dennis Allen beg to differ lol.....

In the end, I agree McCoy is a great RB, would love to have him on my roster, but like most RBs, he got his limitations. The main reason he has not suffered any nagging injuries is that he is so illusive and he is not asked to pound it between the tackles very often....to be honest I own BB in my dynasty league so I am hoping he he gets some carries/goalline work or maybe even traded. Just looking at his face after he would fumble the ball and in his last couple games where he was getting shut down I believe that he will work hard to become a more complete RB.

Edited by pikerbkb, 10 January 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[cbe_88]

pikerbkb, on 10 January 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Cam Cameron, Romeo Crennel and Dennis Allen beg to differ lol.....

It's valid to bring these guys up...these OC's/HC's can make you scratch your head. I still think those examples are more anomalies than what's typical of most coaches of the NFL knowing how to maximize certain talents that players have showcased due to that being their profession.

I think we agree on most fronts about BB's and McCoy's outlook, however.