25 replies to this topic

[crazy47larry]

If someone sends you an obviously bad offer but qualifies it with "I like (Player X) and I would like to trade for him. This is just a flyer offer, tell me what you want." how does that make you feel? Would it make you more inclined to do a deal? or would you laugh it off as a trully sincere offer?

I do it but most of the time it gets laughed off. Sometimes I write in capital letters ***THIS IS A FLYER*** and I will get a response akin to "Thats a rediculous offer. I would never do that." Obviously they dont bother to counter offer either. Needless to say I send out a lot of feelers lol and I am wondering if there is a better way to go about this. I don't mind much because all they have to do is click a button (decline) but I could see some people taking it the wrong way, and the last thing I want to do is alienate myself from a potential future partner.

I am sure there are other questions that I would love to delve into aswell. I was hoping this could get the ball rolling.

[markdash]

I usually start by sending an email to the other owner saying "I have some interest in trading for [PLAYER X], if you want to trade him please look at my roster and let me know if you're interested." This way you avoid the bad feelings that start when you make an offer to the other manager that isn't up to snuff.

I generally just flat reject lopsided incoming trade requests unless we've previously discussed the deal. If you can't be bothered to contact me and try to work something out, it's not worth my time.

[Tarheels_2433]

markdash, on 03 December 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

I usually start by sending an email to the other owner saying "I have some interest in trading for [PLAYER X], if you want to trade him please look at my roster and let me know if you're interested." This way you avoid the bad feelings that start when you make an offer to the other manager that isn't up to snuff.

I generally just flat reject lopsided incoming trade requests unless we've previously discussed the deal. If you can't be bothered to contact me and try to work something out, it's not worth my time.

This is pretty much exactly what I do.  Also, I usually respond to trade offers in a very similar fashion.  I do not beat around the bush.  I know what is and isn't good for my team so I will be straight forward with my response.  I will let the other owner know if the player of interest is available and which players on his roster would have to be involved for any deal to move forward.

[jayreyd]

If I got that I would counter if you wrote a note like that but emailing first is prob better. Then the problem I run into is dudes don't email back. Viscious cycle lol

[crazy47larry]

Yeah I also like to send out an actual offer to gauge interest levels. Those who decline quickest often care the most.

I was thinking about just adding something positive or funny in any offer to get the subliminally thinking that the offer itself is positive or funny. Something like that Dikembe Mutumbo game. They get my offer, play that game, smile, laugh, have fun, then they associate my offers with similar thoughts.

And by "I was thinking about just adding..." I mean I literally just thought of this now.

[Denbo32]

It depends on how crazy your offer is.  Like, I have interest in Durant,  but you send a offer of bimbo Coles then it won't go further, but if you start with Lillard and David West, how far apart are we.  That will normally determine if it continues further or not.

[darkyume]

Sometimes, I just spam low-ball offers.  If it gets rejected, I'd come up with a better offer and send it if I feel like it.  Rinse and repeat.  

If I have a specific target in mind, I start off with a low-ball offer, but prepare a realistic deal in my mind beforehand.  If it gets rejected or if the other person gets offended, I just send the realistic deal and maybe add a comment saying "This is the actual deal I had in mind."

Low-ball offers do get accepted from time to time for whatever reason, so my philosophy in trading is: It doesn't hurt to ask.  If the other person gets offended, just earn their respect back by sending a decent offer - if they reject an offer that would benefit them, it's their loss.  

Spamming trades has gotten me a Kenneth Faried, Gordon Hayward, Robin Lopez for Anthony Davis early in the season (before Davis got injured).  The other owner impatiently ended up dropping Hayward and Lopez, so I think I did quite well.

[Tarheels_2433]

I'll even take this a step further (and address the subtitle question, how do you get a deal done?)

I think a lot of owners looking to trade make the initial mistake of becoming enamored with one player.  Whether it's a guy who's hot that catches their attention or possibly a buy-low candidate.  I do not think this is the best way to approach improving your team, which should be the purpose of making a trade.

Rather than focusing on a specific player right off the bat, look at what those statistical contributions that player offers and why they help your team(basically the reason you want to trade for said player).  Next, look through every team in your league to identify potential players that could fit this bill and as a result help improve your team.  Now this next part is the key.

You need to evaluate the potential trade partners roster, identify their weaknesses and how you could potential address them through a trade with yourself.  Basically you shift the conversation from how you want to make a trade to improve your team to how this trade will benefit their team.  The more you expose and explain why their team could use a trade to upgrade their situation will greatly improve your chances of that owner making a move(because why would they make a trade if it doesn't benefit their roster).

Of course you'll need that part or parts to fix their weakness, but that's why you need to do some research by evaluating every team in your league, as well as your own.

I've always found this to be the best and most successful approach to getting deals done.

[patentboy23]

Step 1: Offer a teaser deal, a deal that is below what your max price is for a player but don't low ball, always have counters in mind already.  This also gives the other owner less time to think and more likely to sell on impulse, if you are quick to fire the next deal out.
*Trade example: my Joakim Noah + Mo Williams for Stephen Curry + Pau Gasol

Step 2: Gauge the owner, after his counter, decline, etc. and proceed to retool the deal and negotiate if possible.  
*Scenario 1: Mo Williams/Noah is the deal breaker Scenario 2: Curry/Gasol is the deal breaker

Step 3: Set your limits and re-submit your next best offer.  
*Jennings is your best PG and that's the most you're willing to give up, or you will settle for a lesser player than Curry, e.g. Ty Lawson
*New offer examples: Noah + Jennings for Curry + Gasol; Noah + Williams for Lawson + Gasol

Step 4: Wait for a response.  Consider throwing a low end piece/ filler to entice, if owner declines.
* Noah + Williams+ Aaron Brooks (filler) for Curry + Gasol

Step 5: Rinse/ repeat steps 1-4, or pat yourself on the back for being the next Mitch Kupchak
Hope this helps

Edited by patentboy23, 03 December 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[brockpapersizer]

I think another tactic that I have found successful is the smoke screen trade.  If the other team has Player X. Try really hard to negotiate a trade for Player Y (who is slightly better than player X.... or at least has much better name value).  Let the other owner know how good Player Y is and how bad you want him.  When you increase Player Y's perceived value thus stiffening the price, act mad and say  "fine.....I guess I could settle for Player X instead if you want to make a deal...I just really need (insert stat) anyway"

A little dirty, but it works pretty well if you choose the right players for X/Y.

Edited by brockpapersizer, 03 December 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[patentboy23]

One of the most important rules: always sell high and buy low, when possible.

[brockpapersizer]

patentboy23, on 03 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Step 1: Offer a teaser deal, a deal that is below what your max price is for a player but don't low ball, always have counters in mind already.  This also gives the other owner less time to think and more likely to sell on impulse, if you are quick to fire the next deal out.
*Trade example: my Joakim Noah + Mo Williams for Stephen Curry + Pau Gasol

Step 2: Gauge the owner, after his counter, decline, etc. and proceed to retool the deal and negotiate if possible.  
*Scenario 1: Mo Williams/Noah is the deal breaker Scenario 2: Curry/Gasol is the deal breaker

Step 3: Set your limits and re-submit your next best offer.  
*Jennings is your best PG and that's the most you're willing to give up, or you will settle for a lesser player than Curry, e.g. Ty Lawson
*New offer examples: Noah + Jennings for Curry + Gasol; Noah + Williams for Lawson + Gasol

Step 4: Wait for a response.  Consider throwing a low end piece/ filler to entice, if owner declines.
* Noah + Williams+ Aaron Brooks (filler) for Curry + Gasol

Step 5: Rinse/ repeat steps 1-4, or pat yourself on the back for being the next Mitch Kupchak
Hope this helps

patentboy23, on 03 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

One of the most important rules: always sell high and buy low, when possible.

I like that your initial trade was fair, but if the owner is simply not willing to make that original deal. Going back and forth and settling on the original trade plus a flier isn't realistic in my opinion.  My friends often come to me for advice in trades in their other league, and when they tell me about trades they are offering people with a "throw in" or "flyer", I tell them not to do it unless they've expressed interest in that player. You just end up making that trade look weaker, even by adding a player.   "Aaron Brooks is garbage, I dont want him... decline".   From my experience....

As for buying low and selling high.  These terms have less meaning in today's fantasy sports with every player getting detailed updates on their player card and sites like rotoworld... its just not really possible outside of the most amateur leagues.  In fact I think both statements tend to hurt people more often than they don't when people go out of their way to trade Varajeo because you "have to sell him high". Unless you're absolutely desperate for a position or a stat, you should always be seeking trades but never forcing them just because someone is a glaring buy low or sell high.

Edited by brockpapersizer, 03 December 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[patentboy23]

This is why I mentioned in step 2 to gauge the other owner.  For instance, I was able to trade my Conley + Hickson + A. Brooks for Dragic + Hibbert.  I sized up the owner and got him to accept the deal on the first try, because I noticed right away that he had Isaiah Thomas.  That being said, I knew he must be frustrated with Thomas and wished he owned his handcuff, my Brooks.  He said himself, he wanted Conley who's currently better than Dragic and Hickson was outperforming an inconsistent Hibbert, and "he would sleep better at night," having Brooks and Thomas in his lineup.  Some deals will go back/forth sometimes, depending on how tight fisted the other owner is, but that's why there's multiple ways to approach trading.

Quote

I like that your initial trade was fair, but if the owner is simply not willing to make that original deal. Going back and forth and settling on the original trade plus a flier isn't realistic in my opinion.  My friends often come to me for advice in trades in their other league, and when they tell me about trades they are offering people with a "throw in" or "flyer", I tell them not to do it unless they've expressed interest in that player. You just end up making that trade look weaker, even by adding a player.   "Aaron Brooks is garbage, I dont want him... decline".   From my experience....

Edited by patentboy23, 03 December 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[brockpapersizer]

patentboy23, on 03 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

This is why I mentioned in step 2 to gauge the other owner.  For instance, I was able to trade my Conley + Hickson + A. Brooks for Dragic + Hibbert because I gauged the owner and got him to accept the deal on the first try, because I noticed right away that he had Isaiah Thomas.  That being said, I knew he must be frustrated with Thomas and wished he owned his handcuff, my Brooks.  He said himself, he wanted Conley who's currently better than Dragic and Hickson was outperforming an inconsistent Hibbert, and "he would sleep better at night," having Brooks and Thomas in his lineup.

I think the most important lesson from this situation is to look at the other team's roster and view their needs more than anything else. This is probably the MOST important rule in fantasy trading.  You saw that he busted on Thomas and were able to add in the Sac PG which he didnt have.

[aaa1]

I've made 5 major trades this year already, and it was a mixture of what these guys described. If I had to crystallize it, the basics would be A) always make offers that address the other owners team needs, B.) never start with the deal you want because nearly every trade needs to be retooled, and C) send out a lot of offers, even multiple packages for the same player(s) to that owner.

But I agree most with these points:

Tarheels_2433, on 03 December 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

You need to evaluate the potential trade partners roster, identify their weaknesses and how you could potential address them through a trade with yourself.  Basically you shift the conversation from how you want to make a trade to improve your team to how this trade will benefit their team.  The more you expose and explain why their team could use a trade to upgrade their situation will greatly improve your chances of that owner making a move(because why would they make a trade if it doesn't benefit their roster).

Of course you'll need that part or parts to fix their weakness, but that's why you need to do some research by evaluating every team in your league, as well as your own.

patentboy23, on 03 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Step 1: Offer a teaser deal, a deal that is below what your max price is for a player but don't low ball, always have counters in mind already.  This also gives the other owner less time to think and more likely to sell on impulse, if you are quick to fire the next deal out.
...
Step 3: Set your limits and re-submit your next best offer.  
*Jennings is your best PG and that's the most you're willing to give up, or you will settle for a lesser player than Curry, e.g. Ty Lawson
*New offer examples: Noah + Jennings for Curry + Gasol; Noah + Williams for Lawson + Gasol

brockpapersizer, on 03 December 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I think another tactic that I have found successful is the smoke screen trade.  If the other team has Player X. Try really hard to negotiate a trade for Player Y (who is slightly better than player X.... or at least has much better name value).  Let the other owner know how good Player Y is and how bad you want him.  When you increase Player Y's perceived value thus stiffening the price, act mad and say  "fine.....I guess I could settle for Player X instead if you want to make a deal...I just really need (insert stat) anyway"

A little dirty, but it works pretty well if you choose the right players for X/Y.

Edited by aaa1, 03 December 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[aaa1]

Also, I often show Basketballmonster trade analysis to the other owner when it's advantageous. It's hard to ignore the numbers and gives you objective talking points.

Psychologically, I think it's just important to get the other owner in the mindset to deal. Very few people are willing to part with good players on a whim, you really have to warm people up to dealing. It's a process, the more offers you send, the more you talk and discuss trades with owners, the more you will put them in that trading mindset.

You kind of have to go all inception and plant ideas in their head, ideas like "why it helps me to trade", "why player X helps me in category Y," or "player X is on the verge of a breakout." Use your jedi mind tricks.

[Timmah!]

brockpapersizer, on 03 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

patentboy23, on 03 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

This is why I mentioned in step 2 to gauge the other owner.  For instance, I was able to trade my Conley + Hickson + A. Brooks for Dragic + Hibbert because I gauged the owner and got him to accept the deal on the first try, because I noticed right away that he had Isaiah Thomas.  That being said, I knew he must be frustrated with Thomas and wished he owned his handcuff, my Brooks.  He said himself, he wanted Conley who's currently better than Dragic and Hickson was outperforming an inconsistent Hibbert, and "he would sleep better at night," having Brooks and Thomas in his lineup.

I think the most important lesson from this situation is to look at the other team's roster and view their needs more than anything else. This is probably the MOST important rule in fantasy trading.  You saw that he busted on Thomas and were able to add in the Sac PG which he didnt have.

Absolutely.  I made an offer yesterday and did by first checking out the other team's record in the categories and then looking at what I have extra that could help.  The result was a 1:1 offer for a player that offers help in a cat he's winless in.  It may still get rejected, but at the very least, I feel it's something at least worth considering.

Nothing turns me off more quickly than an offer that either doesn't offer an apparent improvement to my team, or even worse, creates a negative net impact (e.g. leaving me short-handed at a position).  It implies that the other owner isn't trying to deal with me, but rather to use me.

[Tarheels_2433]

aaa1, on 03 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Also, I often show Basketballmonster trade analysis to the other owner when it's advantageous. It's hard to ignore the numbers and gives you objective talking points.

Psychologically, I think it's just important to get the other owner in the mindset to deal. Very few people are willing to part with good players on a whim, you really have to warm people up to dealing. It's a process, the more offers you send, the more you talk and discuss trades with owners, the more you will put them in that trading mindset.

You kind of have to go all inception and plant ideas in their head, ideas like "why it helps me to trade", "why player X helps me in category Y," or "player X is on the verge of a breakout." Use your jedi mind tricks.

I love the inception reference.  This builds off my earlier post and is absolutely a technique I use often.  The problem is it's hard to employ this through online only leagues.  I am able to pull this off because my leagues consist of very close real life friends that I hang out with regularly.  

(And to those in similar situations, it's incredibly easy to do because if you haven't realized, everyone loves talking about their own fantasy teams.  All you have to do is listen, which most people don't like to do , steer them towards their weaknesses over time, then finally point out how you have this guy on your roster that will solve all their problems .)   Ok, the last part was a bit of an exaggeration, but seriously, if you simply listen, you can easily implant the idea that someone on your roster is desirable.

[SundayKindofLove]

Tie up their wife and children. Gun. Point. Videotape and send via skype.

[aaa1]

Completed a trade today that serves as a good example of how to get a deal done. Since the beginning of the season I've been pestering the Batum owner with offers, he naturally declined all of them while Batum was tearing up the first few weeks. I sent probably 3 offers a week and discussed deals with him even more.

Eventually we came to an impasse and I moved on in my head, but continued to talk to the owner about Batum and potential deals. Low and behold, after all my 50+ declined offers, HE sent me an offer. It wasn't good, but it showed we were getting closer and after retooling for about 48 hours, we made a deal.

Moral of the story, it takes time for some deals to happen. Talk to owners and keep dialogues about players open throughout the season. You never know when someone will change their mind about a player, you need to have a finger on the pulse of the other teams in your league. If you don't want to invest time in your deals, your chances of getting them done are much lower. I would've never been able to make this deal without the legwork of offering and discussing potential packages, and that can be a slow developing thing.

On a side note, I used brockpapersizer's dirty trick to my advantage. I told the owner that I coveted Zach Randolph and it was my goal to get him, when in reality I had my sights set on a lesser player and got to "settle" for him.

Trading is like mental warfare, I love it.

Edited by aaa1, 03 December 2012 - 09:09 PM.