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Potential alternatives to standard leagues


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#1 VeganZombies

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:17 AM

It's well documented the flaws associated with standard 9cat and 8 cats. The biggest obvious flaw is the amount FT% skews value of players. Dwight, one of the best in the league, is almost unusable in roto leauges and overdrafted in H2H leagues due to his 200+ overall ranking.

FT% has almost no bearing on players worth. If anything FTM has a bigger impact as the more you get to the line the better player you are and dwight still gets punished his ft%.

Using this format, we get Lebron, Durant, Harden, Howard, CP3, Wade, Kobe, Carmelo, Duncan Curry, Westbrook and Anderson Varejao as the top overall players in fantasy.

Someone like Kawhi is a more realistic 4th round.

It's a shame that TS% isn't a category in fantasy leagues as it should be a vast improvement over FG% and also potentially Opponent FG% difference from average (as a way to measure "players defensive abilities"

#2 tricas

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:02 AM

"FT% has alomst no bearing on players worth."


I disagree.

#3 EatPrayLove

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:05 AM

It's well documented the flaws associated with standard 9cat and 8 cats. The biggest obvious flaw is the amount FT% skews value of players. Dwight, one of the best in the league, is almost unusable in roto leauges and overdrafted in H2H leagues due to his 200+ overall ranking.

FT% has almost no bearing on players worth. If anything FTM has a bigger impact as the more you get to the line the better player you are and dwight still gets punished his ft%.

Using this format, we get Lebron, Durant, Harden, Howard, CP3, Wade, Kobe, Carmelo, Duncan Curry, Westbrook and Anderson Varejao as the top overall players in fantasy.

Someone like Kawhi is a more realistic 4th round.

It's a shame that TS% isn't a category in fantasy leagues as it should be a vast improvement over FG% and also potentially Opponent FG% difference from average (as a way to measure "players defensive abilities"


FT% has almost no bearing on players worth - disagree, it makes you a liability especially during crunch time.

FTM has a bigger impact as the more you get to the line the better player you are - disagree, I would agree on efficient volume FT shooters like Harden and Durant but for guys like Howard, its more detrimental to your team especially during crunch time.

The biggest obvious flaw is the amount FT% skews value of players. - disagree, in fact, it just goes to show that bad FT shooters are incredibly damaging in fantasy leagues.

Edited by EatPrayLove, 09 April 2013 - 07:11 AM.


#4 Tom Chambers

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:41 AM

In total agreement with the OP. Free throw percentage is fantastic for measuring how well a player shoots free throws. As far as being weighted as equally as the other cats I'm assessing how good a basketball player is? Horrible. FTM is a better option.

Everything I say is from the viewpoint of the following:
ESPN, 12 Teams, 15 players each, not including one IR spot people might or might not be using at any time. Weekly H2H. Two year keepers, in the position you drafted them:
 


#5 johnd2442

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

I'd have to agree with you, Vegan. It was partly for this reason that I stopped playing with categories and went to a more overall style of play. That is why I love H2H points based scoring so much. That is one alternative. Another, which I've mentioned on the board a little is hoops.sports.ws. It involves points based scoring as well, but not by games played. Instead, it is done by minutes played. If you're intrigued about an alternative to standard scoring and standard leagues, I think it is well worth your time to read how the scoring is actually done. It is a heck of a lot more equitable than with games played I think.
High Above Courtside fantasy basketball league
  • 12 franchises, starting its 4th season in 2013-14
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#6 B.Winslow

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

We've all seen hack-a-Shaq and hack-a-Dwight, as well as poor FT shooters getting benched down the stretch of important games. It hurts a players real life value and should hurt their fantasy value as well. If you have 2 versions of Dwight, and the second version shoots a better FT%, obviously the latter is more valuable in real life and fantasy.

#7 Tom Chambers

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:58 PM

Okay? Is Dwight not a superstar?

The arbitrary inclusion of fg% means he's not one in fantasy basketball. It's just kinda silly. We could all have leagues where turnovers, fouls, and team wins are the only cats and it could still be fun and competitive and interesting, but it wouldn't have much correlation to actual basketball.

Everything I say is from the viewpoint of the following:
ESPN, 12 Teams, 15 players each, not including one IR spot people might or might not be using at any time. Weekly H2H. Two year keepers, in the position you drafted them:
 


#8 B.Winslow

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

Okay? Is Dwight not a superstar?

The arbitrary inclusion of fg% means he's not one in fantasy basketball. It's just kinda silly. We could all have leagues where turnovers, fouls, and team wins are the only cats and it could still be fun and competitive and interesting, but it wouldn't have much correlation to actual basketball.


Is he? And if you say he is, would he or would he not be much more valuable if had a better FT%. In a game where every possession counts (playoff time/big games) he becomes a liability.

#9 binhdvu83

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

I still prefer FT% over FTM, if you want an alternative to standard leagues try playing in a 20-30 team league. More depth/strategy involved
30 team (9-cat) H2H NBA dynasty league 1st year
G: CP3, J. Butler, J. Jack, S. Livingston, P. Prigioni
F: T. Harris, C. Frye, B. Diaw, M. Miller
C: M. Gasol, B. Wright

30 team (8-cat) H2H NBA dynasty league 6th year
PG: M. Chalmers, G. Vasquez, P. Prigioni
SG: A. Bradley, D. Harris
SF: N. Batum, J. Johnson, Q. Pondexter
PF: D. Nowitzki, T. Gibson
C: Anthony Davis, C. Bosh

#10 rocko

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:05 PM

Well if you're trying to make it as realistic as possible then wouldn't points be the only category that matters? If you score more than your opponent you should win. But that would be lame.

I agree that ft% is weighted too heavily in standard leagues, but it has to be included. It would be an even less accurate representation of the nba if you just used ftm and didn't include ft%. It seriously hinders Dwight's real life value, so why shouldn't it seriously hinder his fantasy value? Maybe include both of them and weight them both half of every other cat. I don't know.

#11 Tom Chambers

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:15 PM


Okay? Is Dwight not a superstar?

The arbitrary inclusion of fg% means he's not one in fantasy basketball. It's just kinda silly. We could all have leagues where turnovers, fouls, and team wins are the only cats and it could still be fun and competitive and interesting, but it wouldn't have much correlation to actual basketball.


Is he?


Yeah.

And if you say he is, would he or would he not be much more valuable if had a better FT%. In a game where every possession counts (playoff time/big games) he becomes a liability.


Yeah, he would be. LeBron would be better if he averaged .5 fouls a game and shot 80% from beyond the arc, but I don't think those should be categories either. And if they were, they shouldn't be worth as much as things like points, rebounds, assists, etc.

Well if you're trying to make it as realistic as possible then wouldn't points be the only category that matters? If you score more than your opponent you should win. But that would be lame.


No, I don't think it would be. Unless you think Dennis Rodman wasn't a great basketball player or something.

Just saying, Howard is ranked 4th in 9 cat, FTM leagues according to BBM. He's 143rd in 9 cat, FT% leagues. Which one is closer to reality and which one is just some weird quirk stemming from an odd way of scoring? I understand that FT% is default, I just don't see a good reason for why, and don't understand why some people defend it other than "that's just the way it's done!" Because the arguments I usually see (and have seen here) are very arbitrary.

Everything I say is from the viewpoint of the following:
ESPN, 12 Teams, 15 players each, not including one IR spot people might or might not be using at any time. Weekly H2H. Two year keepers, in the position you drafted them:
 


#12 gsw

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

My main league is FTM instead of FT% because I personally believe that the act of getting fouls drawn against an opponent is a net positive in real life basketball (get into the bonus for other players who can shoot free throws well, the other team's defenders may be less agressive due to foul issues). If we try and mirror the fantasy impact of the a player to their real life impact, FTM is more accurate than FT% in my opinion.

Edited by gsw, 09 April 2013 - 04:33 PM.


#13 rocko

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:55 PM


Of course I think rodman was a great player. I wasn't being realistic with that statement per se, it was more my way of saying theres no way for fantasy to perfectly mirror reality. Rebounds are important, but the goal of basketball is to score more points than the other team. Bruce Bowen was a terrible fantasy player, does that mean he wasn't a good nba player?
Like I said, ft% is weighted too heavily, but it needs to be included. How many times has a teams' poor ft shooting cost them a game? Quite a bit I'd wager. If you just use ftm, that will not be reflected in fantasy leagues and will be just as unrealistic as the problem you're trying to fix.

#14 Tom Chambers

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

Of course I think rodman was a great player. I wasn't being realistic with that statement per se, it was more my way of saying theres no way for fantasy to perfectly mirror reality.


Of course not. If it wasn't a somewhat inaccurate model, it would literally just be basketball (not 'fantasy' about it). All models are like that, regardless of what they're reflecting. But there IS a way to make it better, and closer to reality. And it's what this thread is about, see: 4th vs 143rd.

How many times has a teams' poor ft shooting cost them a game? Quite a bit I'd wager. If you just use ftm, that will not be reflected in fantasy leagues and will be just as unrealistic as the problem you're trying to fix.


Probably a lot. If they hit more of those free throws they'd....of course...have....you know where this is going....more free throws made (FTM).

Everything I say is from the viewpoint of the following:
ESPN, 12 Teams, 15 players each, not including one IR spot people might or might not be using at any time. Weekly H2H. Two year keepers, in the position you drafted them:
 


#15 rocko

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:36 PM

I see your point and it's valid. I've just always thought that team ft% correlated to wins more than ftm in basketball due to the importance of them late in the game, but I've never ive never actually looked at the data to see which has a greater effect on overall team success.
Maybe it's just the fact that I've seen Dwight almost single handedly lose games down the stretch due to poor ft shooting, despite making a high volume of them throughout the game.




#16 VeganZombies

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

Dwight and Shaq are getting punished too much for FT%. Are they really 200th best player in the league? I'm going to say no. Both of them are the best Centers in the league at the time and if we're mimicing reality, FTM is a better metric for it.

It accounts for amount you get to the line while taking away for misses. Dwight getting to the line is worth almost 1/2 as much as Durant.

Plus getting the opponent in foul trouble, even by hack a dwight has a huge benefit.

#17 binhdvu83

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

BBM rankings aren't the end all and be all of fantasy players value, a lot depends on how your team is built. It's impossible to be great in all 9 standard Cat. Dwight is way underrated in BBM rankings and KLeonard is overrated. Leonard has high %s but really low volume, impacting your team very little.
30 team (9-cat) H2H NBA dynasty league 1st year
G: CP3, J. Butler, J. Jack, S. Livingston, P. Prigioni
F: T. Harris, C. Frye, B. Diaw, M. Miller
C: M. Gasol, B. Wright

30 team (8-cat) H2H NBA dynasty league 6th year
PG: M. Chalmers, G. Vasquez, P. Prigioni
SG: A. Bradley, D. Harris
SF: N. Batum, J. Johnson, Q. Pondexter
PF: D. Nowitzki, T. Gibson
C: Anthony Davis, C. Bosh

#18 gsw

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:14 PM

BBM rankings aren't the end all and be all of fantasy players value, a lot depends on how your team is built. It's impossible to be great in all 9 standard Cat. Dwight is way underrated in BBM rankings and KLeonard is overrated. Leonard has high %s but really low volume, impacting your team very little.


What are you talking about? The volume of percentages are taken into account with BBM and most other rating systems.