Jump to content

Visit Rotoworld.comRotoworld Forums  
Rotoworld: MLB | NFL | NBA | NHL | NASCAR | CFB
Sports Talk Blogs: PFT | HBT | PBT | CFT | PHT
  Visit NBCSports.com

- - - - -

Joaquin Benoit 2013 OutlookWah-KEEN Ben-WAH


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 Rabbit Maranville

Rabbit Maranville

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 199 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ouagadougou

Posted 16 July 2013 - 11:41 PM

Bout time this guy get's his own thread.

One thing I really don't understand is why everyone and his mom thinks the Tigers are in desperate need of an elite closer-- they have one who is currently pitching the 9th!

Check out some stats:

Overall: 1.64 ERA 1.04 WHIP 4.17 K:BB

14% Swinging Strike

wOBA vL: .255
wOBA vR: .253

Low Leverage wOBA: .306
Medium Leverage wOBA: .276
High Leverage wOBA: .151

So not only has this guy been lights out on the surface, he gets a ton of swinging strikes, get guys out from both sides of the plate, and he's at his best when it counts.

Is the media, as well as the rotoworld population concerned with his workload, track record, or are we just being stubborn with this guy?
7-team Dynasty H2H
------------------------------
C-  Ossee Schreckengost
1B- Hee-Seop Choi
2B- Bo Hart  
3B- Doug Strange
SS- Matt Stairs
OF- Quinton McCracken
OF- Nemo Leibold
OF- William Beane
UTIL- Kevin Young
BN- Tony Womack, Abner Dalrymple
SP- Luis Tiant, Dustin Nippert, Rick Ankiel, Charles Radbourn, Bea Arthur, Bob Walk
RP- Mike Fetters, The Hamburglar, Byung-Hyun Kim, Joe Table

DL- Mark Prior

#2 el_Mantico

el_Mantico

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,329 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 July 2013 - 11:48 PM

Got totally dissed by Buck and McCarver tonight, who cried about how "no team in baseball needs to trade for a closer more than the Tigers"
Yahoo 10-team mixed H2H playoffs - AVG, OPS, R, RBI, HR, SB / W, K, ERA, WHIP, SV, QS
C - McCann, 1B - Moss, 2B - Phillips, SS - Desmond, 3B - Encarnation, OF1 - Trout, OF2 - Bautista, OF3 - Cruz, OF4 - K Davis, Util - Rasmus, CI - Aram, MI - Gordon

SP: Strasburg, Tanaka, Teheran, Cashner, Masterson, Burnett, Kazmir, E Santana,
RP: Holland, Rosenthal, Chapman, Frieri, Santos


Yahoo 12-team mixed roto -  AVG, OPS, R, RBI, HR, SB / W%, K, ERA, WHIP, SV, HLD - 1225 Max IP
C - Rosario, 1B - Ortiz, 2B - Wong, SS - Desmond, 3B - Donaldson, OF1 - CarGo, OF2 - Gomez, OF3 - Soriano, OF4 - Hunter, Util - D. Gordon, IF - Moss

Bench - Gattis

SP: Tanaka, Cobb, Cingrani, Ventura
RP: Jansen, Grilli, Henderson, Soria, Clippard, W. Davis, Ogando

#3 grimsfield

grimsfield

    On the Ballot

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,731 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LosAngeles

Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:43 AM

View Postel_Mantico, on 16 July 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Got totally dissed by Buck and McCarver tonight, who cried about how "no team in baseball needs to trade for a closer more than the Tigers"

those guys that do national broadcasts are some of the worst baseball analysts out there.
"The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault."

#4 motown magic

motown magic

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,830 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:38 AM

But what they say is true. He is NOT a closer . Small sample size. If they told him he was their guy for ROS he would pull a Valverde. he can't take the pressure and can't go back to back. I really see the Tigers going out and getting somebody. Benoit and the Tigers are more comfortable with him in the 8th inning. IMO

#5 StuPitt

StuPitt

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,336 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:03 AM

Benoit is sitting on our leagues wiaver wire because no one has faith he will stay as closer.  I am hanging onto Huston Streey rather than grab him.

I live in Detroit.  Putting Benoit as the closer leaves a huge hole at set-up man.  Detroit has two guys in their bullpen that can pitch.  Leyland prefers Benoit as the 8th inning guy.   Detroit will get a closer...may be a low key guy.   A few years ago the Tigers were in this same boat.  The closer they acquied was Kyle Farnsworth.  So could be a low end closer.

#6 mjb03003

mjb03003

    Hall of Famer

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,337 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:45 AM

View PostStuPitt, on 17 July 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Benoit is sitting on our leagues wiaver wire because no one has faith he will stay as closer.  I am hanging onto Huston Streey rather than grab him.

I live in Detroit.  Putting Benoit as the closer leaves a huge hole at set-up man.  Detroit has two guys in their bullpen that can pitch.  Leyland prefers Benoit as the 8th inning guy.   Detroit will get a closer...may be a low key guy.   A few years ago the Tigers were in this same boat.  The closer they acquied was Kyle Farnsworth.  So could be a low end closer.

Smyly has been dominant in the setup role. Benoit has been dominant in the closer role. Since the Tigers started using those two at the end of games, they've been lights out. Why mess with a good thing?

I've probably made a half dozen posts about this in various closer threads this season, but the notion that Benoit CAN'T pitch back-to-backs is completely false. He pitched back to back on June 27-28, and again on July 2-3. He gave up 3 hits and 1 walk in those 4 scoreless innings, striking out 7 and picking up a pair of saves. I know Leyland doesn't WANT to use Benoit on back-to-backs regularly if he can avoid it, but he still does it and it's not like Benoit implodes every time. In fact, if you look at the game log, he hasn't allowed a single run when pitching the 2nd day of a back-to-back all season.

#7 MiggyRunsTings

MiggyRunsTings

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,707 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:48 AM

View Postmotown magic, on 17 July 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

But what they say is true. He is NOT a closer . Small sample size. If they told him he was their guy for ROS he would pull a Valverde. he can't take the pressure and can't go back to back. I really see the Tigers going out and getting somebody. Benoit and the Tigers are more comfortable with him in the 8th inning. IMO

do you know how many times he's gone back to back this year?? what are you talking about..

also his last 4 years have been lights out. pretty much his career as a reliever. I'm not sure how big of a sample size you need to see. the guy needs to be given his shot. he has all the tools and stuff to succeed and IS doing exactly that so far.
12-team Mixed H2H 5x5 (OBP) Keeper League (6 keeps)

C: Joe Mauer $18 (K)   
1B: Anthony Rizzo $12 (K)
2B: Brian Dozier FA
SS: Andrelton Simmons $4
3B: Miggy Cabrera $41 (K)
IF: David Wright $29
OF: Matt Kemp $27
OF: Brett Gardner $15
OF: Hunter Pence $13 (K)
OF: Dexter Fowler $8
U: Adam Eaton $3
B: Justin Smoak FA

SP: Jose Fernandez $5 (K), Cole Hamels $17, Julio Teheran $11 (K), Clay Buchholz $5, Alex Wood $5, Jake Peavy $1, Michael Pineda $1. Juan Nicasio FA, Brandon Morrow FA
RP: Jason Grilli $8, Ernesto Frieri $10, J.J. Hoover FA
ML: Kevin Gausman $1, Brad Miller $1
DL: Jurickson Profar $8, Matt Moore $11

#8 Oriole Way

Oriole Way

    Hall of Famer

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,315 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Baltimore, MD

Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:03 AM

View Postmotown magic, on 17 July 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

But what they say is true. He is NOT a closer . Small sample size. If they told him he was their guy for ROS he would pull a Valverde. he can't take the pressure and can't go back to back. I really see the Tigers going out and getting somebody. Benoit and the Tigers are more comfortable with him in the 8th inning. IMO

Lots of false info and misconceptions here.  First four sentences are completely untrue.

Tigers should get a setup man who can potentially close if Benoit gets hurt or struggles.  But they don't really have any prospects for a great closer unless they decide to pay most of someone's salary, like a Papelbon.  If he's available for money, they should get him, but otherwise, Benoit has done a great job and there's no legitimate reason not to expect that to continue unless you believe some of the myths above that idiots like Jim Leyland have propagated.

#9 W74

W74

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,056 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:07 AM

It seems like all these Tigers' fans are masochists and want some "low-end" closer to close over Benoit... I will laugh when they trade for someone like Gregg and he pulls a Valverde

Edited by W74, 17 July 2013 - 09:08 AM.


#10 UVA_Drew

UVA_Drew

    On the Ballot

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,230 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia, PA

Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:07 AM

View Postmotown magic, on 17 July 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

But what they say is true. He is NOT a closer . Small sample size. If they told him he was their guy for ROS he would pull a Valverde. he can't take the pressure and can't go back to back. I really see the Tigers going out and getting somebody. Benoit and the Tigers are more comfortable with him in the 8th inning. IMO

So let me get this straight...

He is only pitching so lights out right now (AS THE FULL-TIME CLOSER) because he thinks it's only a temporary position?

And once he is told that it's not a temporary position, he will completely collapse and start sucking (even though he's been lights out for years now, no matter what spot they've used him in)?

Interesting opinion there...one that makes absolutely no logical sense at all, and is backed up without absolutely no evidence.
10 Team Auction Draft: OBP & SLG league (dominated the draft, sexiest OF ever)

C:   Wilin Rosario
1B: Albert Pujols
2B: Jose Altuve
3B: Todd Frazier
SS: Jean Segura
CI: Adrian Gonzalez
MI: Brad Miller
OF: Jay Bruce, Shin-Soo Choo, Justin Upton, Jose Bautista, Mark Trumbo
Util: Jose Abreu
Bench: George Springer, Emilio Bonifacio, Wilson Ramos (DL)

SP: Max Scherzer, Chris Sale, Anibal Sanchez, Homer Bailey, Chris Archer, Jon Lester, Scott Kazmir, Corey Kluber
RP: Ernesto Frieri, Grant Balfour, Tommy Hunter, Jonathon Papelbon

#11 9703

9703

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,217 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:02 AM

View Postmotown magic, on 17 July 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

But what they say is true. He is NOT a closer . Small sample size. If they told him he was their guy for ROS he would pull a Valverde. he can't take the pressure and can't go back to back. I really see the Tigers going out and getting somebody. Benoit and the Tigers are more comfortable with him in the 8th inning. IMO

Lol

#12 Backdoor Slider

Backdoor Slider

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,347 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:12 PM

View PostW74, on 17 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

It seems like all these Tigers' fans are masochists and want some "low-end" closer to close over Benoit... I will laugh when they trade for someone like Gregg and he pulls a Valverde

Please don't judge us all. You're right, some are. But not all of us.
Facts:
Leyland did say he wasn't comfortable going to Benoit on back-to-backs....in the preseason.

Benoit also said himself that he preferred the 8th inning to the 9th. I believe that was late April.

All that being said, there's some important points to make, since a lot has changed since then that SOME Detroit fans refuse to acknowledge.

*A lot was said in the preseason about Leyland being bugged with Dombrowski that he was going to be asked to win a WS and they were going in with hopes that a rookie would take over closing duties. If you hear all his quotes, he had knocks on everyone. He was talking to Dombrowski through the media, basically saying "I've been giving nothing to work with."
No idea why we're still harping on this quote when Benoit has gone Back-to-back multiple times now.

*Benoit's quote was when Valverde was signed and coming up. Easily could've been him trying not to rock the boat.

Benoit has been an elite MR. And even if there was hesitation, either from Leyland or Benoit, it's gone now. It's July. Things have changed. Benoit is closing and dominating. I have no idea why some are holding onto these false narratives.

I mentioned in the closer thread that at this point I wouldn't be shocked if they acquired a Gregg or Cishek type but continue to use Benoit as closer. He has shown he can handle all it entails.

**Poster Formerly Known as 2Balls

Keep up to 7 (Lose round per keeper):

Votto
JFernandez
Bryce
Kipnis
CGomez
Beltre
Bogaerts

#13 midi24

midi24

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 164 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:17 PM

3 outs are 3 outs.  8th or 9th inning doesnt make a lick of difference.  The whole "closer mentality" thing is total bullshit, as proven by Benoit and Uehara this season.

#14 Backdoor Slider

Backdoor Slider

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,347 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:25 PM

View Postmidi24, on 17 July 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

3 outs are 3 outs.  8th or 9th inning doesnt make a lick of difference.  The whole "closer mentality" thing is total bullshit, as proven by Benoit and Uehara this season.

Those two prove it? How about Dave Robertson last year? Elite, next in line closer who faltered once given the job.
Fact is neither is 100% true. But these guys are human and there are some guys who may shrivel in the spotlight.
I also heard Mitch Williams talking about how he succeeded in the 9th because hitters were more aggressive (down to last couple outs) and he would've walked a ton more than he did if he pitched the 7th or 8th.
So there are differences. Or can be for some pitchers. But I think Benoit is showing he can handle the 9th just fine.
**Poster Formerly Known as 2Balls

Keep up to 7 (Lose round per keeper):

Votto
JFernandez
Bryce
Kipnis
CGomez
Beltre
Bogaerts

#15 9703

9703

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,217 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:56 PM

View PostBackdoor Slider, on 17 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

View Postmidi24, on 17 July 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

3 outs are 3 outs.  8th or 9th inning doesnt make a lick of difference.  The whole "closer mentality" thing is total bullshit, as proven by Benoit and Uehara this season.



Those two prove it? How about Dave Robertson last year? Elite, next in line closer who faltered once given the job.
Fact is neither is 100% true. But these guys are human and there are some guys who may shrivel in the spotlight.
I also heard Mitch Williams talking about how he succeeded in the 9th because hitters were more aggressive (down to last couple outs) and he would've walked a ton more than he did if he pitched the 7th or 8th.
So there are differences. Or can be for some pitchers. But I think Benoit is showing he can handle the 9th just fine.

David Robertson was given like 2 save opportunities. That's like saying that Papelbon no longer has the closer's mentality due to all of his blown saves recently. It's a small sample size. Any elite setup guy can close. It's been proven over and over and over again.

Edited by 9703, 17 July 2013 - 02:58 PM.


#16 Backdoor Slider

Backdoor Slider

    Superstar

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,347 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:22 PM

View Post9703, on 17 July 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

View PostBackdoor Slider, on 17 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

View Postmidi24, on 17 July 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

3 outs are 3 outs.  8th or 9th inning doesnt make a lick of difference.  The whole "closer mentality" thing is total bullshit, as proven by Benoit and Uehara this season.



Those two prove it? How about Dave Robertson last year? Elite, next in line closer who faltered once given the job.
Fact is neither is 100% true. But these guys are human and there are some guys who may shrivel in the spotlight.
I also heard Mitch Williams talking about how he succeeded in the 9th because hitters were more aggressive (down to last couple outs) and he would've walked a ton more than he did if he pitched the 7th or 8th.
So there are differences. Or can be for some pitchers. But I think Benoit is showing he can handle the 9th just fine.

David Robertson was given like 2 save opportunities. That's like saying that Papelbon no longer has the closer's mentality due to all of his blown saves recently. It's a small sample size. Any elite setup guy can close. It's been proven over and over and over again.

No, it's not like saying that.  Papelbon is a proven closer.  
I agree that most can.  And I agree that Benoit doesn't fall into this category.  "Uehara and Benoit this year prove it" isn't a small sample size, but Dave Robertson is?
Are you telling me there are NO examples of an elite set up guy who faltered again and again as closer?  Not one?
**Poster Formerly Known as 2Balls

Keep up to 7 (Lose round per keeper):

Votto
JFernandez
Bryce
Kipnis
CGomez
Beltre
Bogaerts

#17 BobC

BobC

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 210 posts

Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:57 PM

It's pretty simple, if saves are a category in your league Benoit should be owned until he proves otherwise.  Not only is he getting saves, he's pitching lights out and is an asset in every category except wins (duh).

#18 UVA_Drew

UVA_Drew

    On the Ballot

  • Established Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,230 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia, PA

Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

View Post9703, on 17 July 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

View PostBackdoor Slider, on 17 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

View Postmidi24, on 17 July 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

3 outs are 3 outs.  8th or 9th inning doesnt make a lick of difference.  The whole "closer mentality" thing is total bullshit, as proven by Benoit and Uehara this season.



Those two prove it? How about Dave Robertson last year? Elite, next in line closer who faltered once given the job.
Fact is neither is 100% true. But these guys are human and there are some guys who may shrivel in the spotlight.
I also heard Mitch Williams talking about how he succeeded in the 9th because hitters were more aggressive (down to last couple outs) and he would've walked a ton more than he did if he pitched the 7th or 8th.
So there are differences. Or can be for some pitchers. But I think Benoit is showing he can handle the 9th just fine.

David Robertson was given like 2 save opportunities. That's like saying that Papelbon no longer has the closer's mentality due to all of his blown saves recently. It's a small sample size. Any elite setup guy can close. It's been proven over and over and over again.

David Robertson was also injured...if you owned him you'd remember...I was stoked to get him when Mo went down.

After those 2 opps, he went to the DL with a lat or oblique strain, which obviously clearly affects his pitching.

That being said, I DO in fact think there is a needed mentality to be able to close, and not everyone can do it...it's just been proven in this instance that Benoit CAN do it at an elite level.
10 Team Auction Draft: OBP & SLG league (dominated the draft, sexiest OF ever)

C:   Wilin Rosario
1B: Albert Pujols
2B: Jose Altuve
3B: Todd Frazier
SS: Jean Segura
CI: Adrian Gonzalez
MI: Brad Miller
OF: Jay Bruce, Shin-Soo Choo, Justin Upton, Jose Bautista, Mark Trumbo
Util: Jose Abreu
Bench: George Springer, Emilio Bonifacio, Wilson Ramos (DL)

SP: Max Scherzer, Chris Sale, Anibal Sanchez, Homer Bailey, Chris Archer, Jon Lester, Scott Kazmir, Corey Kluber
RP: Ernesto Frieri, Grant Balfour, Tommy Hunter, Jonathon Papelbon

#19 Rabbit Maranville

Rabbit Maranville

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 199 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ouagadougou

Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:02 PM

Interesting discussion above. Thanks to everyone for their insight.

Benoit has been, objectively, one of the best relievers in the game this year. He has succeeded since taking back over the 9th-inning role from papa g.

One thing that must be stated is that a team's best reliever isn't, nor shouldn't necessarily be, that team's closer. I believe that the above poster is correct when he says that a closer needs a certain mentality to close, and that mentality is not always found in some of the top relievers. But after given this extended tryout, one has no choice to conclude that Benoit is indeed fit for the role.

Whether or not Leyland chooses to move onto the postseason with Benoit in that role is some fun speculation. Leyland is old school. Or maybe he's just old and seems old school. But one could assume that he wants someone who has closed out those types of games before.

And lastly, I must reiterate my point that the a team's best reliever should not always be the team's closer. Sabermetrics show that relievers can be much more valuable to a team when pitched in a more versatile role. I, for one, hate the assigned closer paradigm.
7-team Dynasty H2H
------------------------------
C-  Ossee Schreckengost
1B- Hee-Seop Choi
2B- Bo Hart  
3B- Doug Strange
SS- Matt Stairs
OF- Quinton McCracken
OF- Nemo Leibold
OF- William Beane
UTIL- Kevin Young
BN- Tony Womack, Abner Dalrymple
SP- Luis Tiant, Dustin Nippert, Rick Ankiel, Charles Radbourn, Bea Arthur, Bob Walk
RP- Mike Fetters, The Hamburglar, Byung-Hyun Kim, Joe Table

DL- Mark Prior

#20 Jaked2782

Jaked2782

    Double-A

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denver, CO
  • Interests:All sports, music, tv and anything mildly entertaining

Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:04 AM

Ive been hearing the same thing being said about Mujica all year, while I continue to pile up saves grinning ear to ear.. I will take Benoit all day!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users