Do you think PT can be studly in NO since Bush isn't the RB PT is? Do you think PT can sustain long term success as well? I just read he bulked up 10 pounds to be the power back that NO is looking for.

I dunno where he'll be projected in this year's draft, but if I could grab him as my RB3 or 4 I'd be overjoyed. Bush is bound to get dinged up and he def could be a stud then. Even with Bush healthy I'd imagine he'll get enough carries & goal line opps to be valuable.

I'm kinda of hoping no one talks about him until my draft is over. I'd love to have him as a RB3/Flex player.

I can see him having some value this year but after that I doubt he has much value with the Saints. Sean Payton has made it pretty obvious that he wants a power back and with a guy like Reggie Bush already on the roster he would more than likely be the change of pace back.

I actually see Reggie Bush as the change of pace back in this backfield.
Sure, the offense does run through him significantly, but more catches than carries.
PT will be a steal if you can get him on the cheap... check out the last 5-6 games last year and see if he's a capable RB.
You'll see some good stats... Now throw in the fact he's motivated and the fact that it is always a matter of when, not if, Reggie gets hurt... good times ahead for PT owners.

He'll be a good player but beware that there is absolutely no truth to the fact that he is as strong as the Rotoworld blog states. They always over-glorify the strength abilities of the players they cover. He cannot Squat that much. So that leads me to believe he put on a fair amount of fat.

Average talent in a great offense so he'll get his stats in 2009. For this year, he'll be a steal but long-term I'd have my doubts as New Orleans is obviously looking for an upgrade... They'll eventually pull the trigger on one.

Do you have any, you know, proof to back up this claim?

How much did they say he squats?

675 lbs... or two Julius Peppers' and 100 lbs to spare...

I agree with the idea that Pierre Thomas is a very average talent in an incredible offense with limited competition. I think both Bush and Thomas can be very good this year. Bush could be unbelievable great, evidenced by being the best RB in fantasy last year until he got hurt. But until Bush can stay healthy for a full season, he is a very hard guy to trust. I think Pierre could be a decent RB #2 this year....He will get goal line carries and probably get the majority of the regular carries. Bush will get his carries and obviously a ton of catches. As far as long term, I don't think the Saints brain trust love Pierre Thomas so I think they will always be looking for an upgrade. This year, like him a lot, in the future, not so much

A 675 pound Squat is a great Squat for a heavyweight powerlifter who does steroids, not for a 230 pound NFL running back. There is definitely some exaggeration to this story. There is no way someone can add almost 200 pounds to a lift like a Squat in 4.5 months.

I don't think it's that far fetched. I could see a guy who's been lifting in sports since middle school getting in 675 no problem.

No offense man, but have you ever lifted a weight in your life?

So... that's an opinion. Yours, specifically. Still waiting on proof that:

A) There's no truth to Rotoworld's claim he can squat that much.
B) Rotoworld overglorifies the strength abilities of the players they cover.
C) Pierre Thomas put on a fair amount of fat.

I mean, these are bold statements. Surely you have some information besides your own opinion about what a player you've never seen work out is capable of, right?

Out of curiosity I looked up world record squats. The most in a drug free federation is a 1,008.8 pound squat. The most period is a 1,235 pound lift. This is from wikipedia so take it for what it's worth. While it would be quite an impressive feat, I can believe an NFL RB could come within 330 pounds of a drug free record. That said, the squat really doesn't have a whole lot to do with how I see him going forward.

As others have stated the Saints have been involved in several rumors about power backs. Most notably Wells in the draft. I think they see Thomas as adequate, but possibly not as a long-term solution. As I stated numerous times last season, there's two distinct roles in the Saint offense. Bush who's used almost primarily as a receiver and outside runner will not effect the number of carries the guy that has the between the tackle role gets. Even if Bush stays healthy all year there's plenty of room for another successful RB in that backfield. Thomas is looking at the goal line carries and most likely a good amount of first and second down carries as well. If you figure 20 carries at 4+ per he could easily get to a 1,000 yard season. With the goal line looks I'd say 8 TD's isn't unlikely. Considering he also gets some targets out of the backfield, he's definitely got a good amount of value as it stands for this season. If he does great, maybe the Saints stop thinking about bringing in another back. He's definitely an intriguing guy to watch.

Aside from following competitive powerlifting, no, I have no proof. But it doesn't take an idiot to know that it is not possible to increase a Squat by close to 200 pounds in a matter of one offseason. This leads me to believe that Rotoworld either has non-credible sources or over-exaggerates their blurb details greatly. But this is another topic.

Just out of curiosity, how heavy was the holder of the world Squat record?

I can't seem to find it anywhere, but it's definitely safe to say that he's significantly bigger than Pierre Thomas.

Okay, that's what I was looking for.

Also, heil Ian Kinsler!

But I like Pierre a lot this year. I've heard nothing but good news about him for the entire offseason, and as long as Payton's man crush is not in the way, he should be solid. I think he holds more value in the short term though, because I still think NO would like to bring in someone better/ with more pedigree.

Come on man, I wouldn't ignore you if you asked for my autograph. Yes, I lift five times a week. And since I lift, I realize that lifting big weights doesn't always mean you have to weigh a lot. Body type has just as much of an effect as your weight. Smaller body types mean a shorter squat. Barry Sanders supposedly had a 600 pound squat, and he was 3" shorter (and didn't weigh as much as PT). And the article doesn't say what type of time period he's increased the squat in. I interpreted it that he was at 495 last offseason. I could see him adding 180lbs to that considering he really has nothing else to do but go to the gym. He has had more than enough time on his hands since the beginning of January to increase the strength in his legs if that's his goal.

Here's a link to the article by the writer who had the conversation with PT

http://blog.nola.com/jeffduncan/2009/05/_f...vations_fr.html

Well, anyone who read this board last year knows I'm an unabashed PT fan without any remorse, plus I own him for this year plus the next two in my dynasty league. A couple comments come to mind after reading the above thread:

1) Average talent? Go look up his numbers in games he's touched the ball 15 times or more and tell me thats average talent. More like Ladanian numbers. Please, you're welcome to your opinion but if you want it to be highly regarded around here, back it up with some knowledge.

2. 9 TD's and over 100 ypg in his last 7 games last year, 3 of those games splitting carries with Bush, one of those games the Lions debacle where the Saints had the ball inside the 5 on 5 straight possessions and PT didn't get the ball, Payton channeling Shanahan or some s---.

3. PT had 12 TD's last year, good for 8th in the league. He was the #10 scoring RB in my money league, on 129 carries and 31 receptions. Average talent? WTF?

4. He's a free agent at the end of this season? Think he's motivated to flat out kill it this year? He might not be in NO long term plans but if he plays to 80% of his effectiveness last year, he'll be the starting RB somewhere. Bring him to Seattle or San Diego in '10 and I love his long term outlook.

5. PT will be a top 10 fantasy scoring RB if Bush gets hurt again late, top 15 if Bush doesn't get hurt, and top 5 if Bush gets hurt early. 43 of his 129 carries went for first downs, top percentage in the league by far. 6 of his 8 carries insde the 2 went for TD's, 2nd best rate in the NFL. Only 6 of his 129 carries resulted in Stuffs (No gain or negative yards), again tops in the league.

Stats aside, he runs like a fvcking stud, hard and elusive. He'll be better than you think this year and in the future.

I interpret that it was 495 at the end of the season. 180 is still hard as hell to do in a year. My beef with this is my credibility with the reporter and the blurbs that RW publishes. I still think Pierre is a great player so I guess this is just a moot point.

Yes, average talent. As mentioned above that you fail to account for, he's playing in one of the league's top offenses. Do you think that a player would have a difficult time amassing stats when you have a passing game featuring Drew Brees, Marques Colston, Lance Moore, Reggie Bush, etc.? Any REAL student of this hobby knows that opinions on "talent" is less about box score watching and more about reading between the lines, understanding pedigrees, understanding contracts, etc. Speaking of being highly regarded, you've lost any and all credibility you might have had in my eyes by comparing an undrafted player like Pierre Thomas to a future HOFer in LaDainian Tomlinson. Please.

Is it possible for an undrafted player in a high-octane offense to actually be the real deal? Sure, but explain to me why it is then the team has an incredible chubby to replace him (rhetorical question, I already know the answer)? It's been highly documented up to and during the draft, free-agency, and still now with them talking about signing James. Edge is well into the twilight of his career and won't threaten Thomas in the short-run, but clearly the team is looking to upgrade. They eventually will... Bottom line, I'll trust the player evaluation and subsequent opinion(s) of a NFL head coach and GM over a random message board poster who can't do any better than regurgitate stats and subsequently conclude that he's on par with LaDainian Tomlinson. LOL.

Also, he's not going to be a free agent next year. He's going to be a restricted free agent which will be even worse for him as the CBA rules are changing as the league goes uncapped. It's going to take him longer to qualify for unrestricted free agency, barring an agreement on a new CBA. So, your pipe dream of an undrafted RB signing some big-money contract with San Diego or Seattle next year is just that, a dream. If Thomas plays well this year (which I've already stated I believe he will), New Orleans will tender him at a 2nd or even 1st round level, both of which are dirt cheap. There's not a dang thing Thomas can do about that and no team will pony-up a big contract offer knowing that they'll lose the draft pick he's tendered at... Way to know the situation.

So that would make Bush a below average talent, considering he averages over a yard less per carry and almost 3 yards less per reception?



Pedigree? Like Terrel Davis? Kurt Warner? Joe Montana? Tom Brady? 6th round, undrafted, 3rd round, 6th round. Please. Also, I find talent by watching football, not reading box scores. Pierre is a talented NFL running back, the stats just back up what he's shown on film.



And I'm sure if anyone had the audacity to compare a lowly regarded 6th round draft choice (Brady) with Manning, they would have lost all credibility in your esteemed opinion. A young LTII is who PT most reminds me of when running with the ball, especially after the catch. Obviously the body of work doesn't back up the comparison but I keep coming back to Dane when watching PT run. Perhaps you have a more apt comparison?



Watch the film from Week 17, 2007 and the last 6 games of 2008. And then let's discuss average talent and the fact that sometimes, even professional "talent evaluators" just plain screw up. It happens. Kurt Warner. Ryan Leaf. We could play this game forever.



Word, shouldn't post after multiple beers. I meant 2011 but that was assuming they tendered him this year and then couldn't the next year, but really, I don't care about a big money contract for Pierre, I just want him toting the rock in an offense that suits his skill set. He can stay in NO for the rest of his career, as long as Payton pulls his head out of his ass and gives him the damn ball.

Bush is used as a receiver more than a RB. Fact is, per my point, that teams have to respect his speed and receiving ability which opens up running opportunities for whatever between-the-tackles RB is in the game, be it Pierre Thomas, Deuce McAllister (at that time), Mike Bell, etc. A different discussion entirely, but Bush considering being a #2 overall pick is a bust. He does, however, have a particular skill-set that the Saints exploit and Thomas will benefit.



There are always exceptions to the rule as everyone knows. Montana, being a 3rd round pick, was expected to be good and contribute so that's a stretch there. Obviously a steal though based on how good he really was. A big difference with all of these guys, which you have yet to even start to dispute, is that the respective teams of these surprise players didn't seek out a replacement as the Saints have. Clearly, they don't think they've got a gem as the Broncos, Rams, and 49ers did.



Once again, another exception to the rule. Besides, I'll safely say that Pierre Thomas won't ever come close to what LaDainian Tomlinson has done. Further, I would say anyone who compared Brady to Peyton Manning after six good games would be silly to do so as well. I'd also bet that no one would make that comparision at that time... As for a more apt comparision, not really. He's no different to me than the hundreds of other average RBs that have played in the league. He's not special; he's just benefiting statistically from playing on a top offense.



The bolded comment further makes your position suspect. Are you really going to point towards stats in a week 17 game (against Chicago) between 2 teams with nothing to play for as evidence of "talent"? It's scary to think of how many big week 17 games I can find of guys that you've probably never heard of... Give me a break! Why, if Thomas presumably should have opened everyone's eyes during this game, did the Saints go out of their way to re-do McAllister's contract the ensuing off-season to keep him with the team? McAllister, a guy who has had countless knee surgeries including another micro-fracture job earlier in the year, was a target to be retained by the Saints, despite the stat line Pierre Thomas gave in week 17 of the previous year. Hmm... As for the last six weeks of 2008, great, he played well and I didn't dispute that. Fresh legs had nothing to do with that I'm sure... I mean, we've never seen RBs with fresh legs play well in the second half of seasons in the NFL. It's always because they've got LT-like talent and ability.

Of course talent evaluators screw up but less often than not. You're free to think as you wish, but as a general rule I'll trust the competency of a NFL front office over a message board poster who uses week 17 games as support to suggest someone is a great player. As I said, I think he'll be good this year because of the offense around him but he's an average talent IMO. Average, by definition meaning not good but not bad either. Middle of the road, average. Put him with Cincinnati, Cleveland, etc. without the offensive support and he's just another player on the roster. That's my opinion, seemingly shared by the Saints themselves based on their comments/actions since January.

Fair enough, at least you've got some solid justification behind your opinions. I'm too lazy to point/counterpoint you again but a couple thoughts:

1. Payton admitted that the Bernie Wells thing was a smokescreen. They were taking Cushing if Jenkins wasn't there. And the Saint's GM (name eludes me right now) said that they were only doing their "due diligence" in the Edge situation.

2. Gruden called PT "one of the most underrated players in the NFL" during the draft. He seems like a decent "talent evaluator" to me.

3. Even if he's an "average talent" I hope he continues to put up LT like #"s in the games he carries the ball more than 15 times. And I hope he carries the ball more than 15 times every game for the next three years.

Cheers!

It's all good... Just opinions either way. Although, do you have a source to the team indicating taking Wells was a smoke screen? I buy that as their pressing needs on defense far outweighed any need to upgrade at RB so I would have been shocked to see them go RB regardless, but the report post-draft was that they were trying to trade back into the back-half of the first round to take Wells as he was falling in addition to the possibilty pre-draft of them taking him at #14... I never read anything that indicated it was all BS later, but I wouldn't be surprised (I have just never seen it).

As for Edge, sure, they (and others) are probably kicking the tires there and even if they sign him it doesn't mean a whole lot to me in the grand scheme of things. However, from a pure negotiating standpoint, there's probably not much upside in publicaly indicating you want a guy as that'll invite the agent to drive the price up. They're acting like they can live with or without him (regardless of how they really feel) so he can be had as cheap as possible, if in fact they elect to extend a contract offer.

I love Jon Gruden. I think it's a GD travesty that he's not a head coach right now as he's one of the top-5 best in the business IMO. So, his opinion certainly means a lot to me. That said, we all know Grudes loves everyone and hell, he'd probably indicate I've got some ability to play RB if I make a couple of changes to my game. Secondly, what vested interest does he have in really saying he likes or dislikes anyone? I watched the NFLN coverage during the draft and recall when he said that. I can't remember *exactly* what he said, but he alluded to the fact that he'll surprise a lot of people, which I agree with. Long-term though, eh, I'm not so sure.

I'm in a large handful of dynasty leagues and I'm married to a lot of Saints in most of them so believe me, I'm hoping the running game gets on track as that'll just help my vested interest in Brees, Colston, etc. In my redraft leagues, PT probably won't be on any of my teams as he's this year's Thomas Jones in that he's the trendy sleeper and the ADP value will be gone by August.

Anyways, thanks for the banter.

I like Pierre Thomas for this season. If the Saints had brought in another back, then I would be very skeptical as Thomas is nothing more than a decent back in a great offense. How often do the Saints' back face unfavorable numbers? They often face a light box, so, like with Denver in the past (not the present), you want their running back.

As for Bush and how he and Thomas relate to each other... It might not matter a whole lot. They should both be viable with Bush healthy and Thomas would maybe be a shade or two better with Bush out. Still, even with Bush in, Thomas should get 15 plus carries and should get in-close scores AND 4th quarter carries with the lead.

Lastly, don't discount the x factor. I don't know much about Lynell Hamilton, but I know he's bigger than Pierre and he's stuck on the team after a year on their practice squad and seems like he could replace Deuce as Thomas' competition. Ryan Grant spent a year on a practice squad recently. I'd want Hamilton if I had Thomas.

For Bush, there is no back-up. There's no other player that replicates his part in the game plan. They'll redistribute his 10-12 carries, but that's about it, and at least half of them would go to Thomas, who is already in somebody's lineup.

I like both players for fantasy, but it's very debatable where you take either one of them. Both have high upside and very weak floors. Bush with injury and Thomas as a medium talent that drafts behind a great system.

It was on Jeff Duncan's blog on NOLA.com...it was one of the post draft posts he put up. He was referring to the "Wells @ 14" talk being a smokescreen, he did say they investigated moving back into the late first when he started to slip but didn't have the ammo (even tho they traded two picks to move up and take a punter? wtf?)



The fact that Gruden isn't coaching and guys like Childress, Del Rio and (insert OAK coach of your choice here) still have jobs is a travishamockery.



Totally agree. If I didn't have him locked in @ round 13, he wouldn't be on my draft board this year either. I saw a mock draft on sportsline.com where he went late 2nd and multiple projections in the 3rd round. While I'm positive he'll (if he stays healthy) produce to that level, that no longer makes him a value pick.



Indeed. Wish it was August and we had something real to discuss.

Saints coach Sean Payton confirmed that he is no longer looking to add a power running back.
Asked if he felt a need to add a bruising short-yardage back, Payton replied: "Not right now. I know a lot has been written about that, but I think the guy we’re looking for may already be in the building." Pierre Thomas has bulked up and is the favorite to handle lead back duties.

Pierre Thomas is definetly a guy i am looking to target this year

I don't see PT getting out of the 4th round of fantasy drafts. I think trying to grab him as a RB3/RB4 is only realistic if you plan on grabbing 3 or 4 RBs in the first 4 rounds. I love the kid, but my thoughts are that the other owners in my leagues do as well. It's only June, so it's hard to predict his ADP, but my guess is late 3rd round, early 4th. I think he will be a good value there.

I think he's a risky pick there. He's a system RB. He drafts behind a great offense and runs against a sparsely populated box. I like his upside a lot for this very reason, but you really ought to be careful about passing up on Top 48 players to take a guy like PT.

He's the classic example of a guy who goes from value to over-valued. He's a smart late grab in '08 and a guy who jumps up too high in '09.

I'm not calling it a crazy thing to do, but I'll let another owner take him that high.

Consider this scenario. PT gets dinged up early and misses a game. One of the other backs comes in and does exactly what PT did to Deuce and crew last year. Now, PT could be part of a committee that already gives up mucho touches to Reggie Bush.

Payton has some Shannahan in him. Beware.

In the 4th round, I want players who have the kind of talent that cannot be benched or marginalized by competition.

Solid #3 RB with upside potential to perform like a high quality #2.
If Reggie goes down early (never if, but when) and things click for PT he could be even better.

I think he could go as early as the 3rd round with the lack of "elite" rbs this year. outside of the top 5 rbs, you can mix any of em.

In a recent interview with WWL radio in New Orleans, Drew Brees admitted that Pierre Thomas is the Saints' lead back.
"I think that Pierre is our number one back and can do the job," said Brees. "I feel like Reggie can be able to step in and do a great job ... but certainly I think Pierre Thomas is the total package." While we've been expressing a similar sentiment since late last season, it's nice to hear that Thomas has the backing of the Saints' offensive leader.

Yes, but isn't that all the more reason to hold off and take WR's, who do have a big drop-off?

PT is on my radar this year. Gonna try and draft him in as many leagues as i can.

Yahoo has him rated at #24 overall - kind of hard to "buy him on the cheap" when they overrate him like that.

I like the guy too but I don't think I'd want to be stuck with him as my #1 or #2 back.

And you don't think Bush is overrated too?

Anyway i will be drafting PT in the second round in all drafts this year.

what does bush being overrated have anything to do with the argument that thomas is overrated... with that said, bush is actually being underrated imho...

I agree.

And, IMO, PT in round two is way too soon.

Not for me it isn't sometimes you gotta reach for certain players. Part of the game.

Bush is , he was supposed to be this great RB coming outta college with loads of hype and all. But he has not been able to play a whole NFL season and miss the rest of the year the last few seasons.

So yes he is overrated.

Missing the playoffs is part of the game too.

Pierre @ #2 is too rich for my blood. He doesn't have enough of a track record to justify that high of a pick IMO.

I do think he's talented, and he'll get his share of scores in that offense, but his opps will be much more limited than you'd like to see from a 2nd-Round back.

I'd consider taking him in the 4-5 round, depending on what my situation is...

Agreed. He's got a lot of fans, so I don't see him getting out of the 4th in most leagues.

GreatGig is right. Reaching for players like PT isn't part of the game. Sitting back and letting them fall to you at a great value is what wins championships.