Last week I was looking to pick up Spencer Havner in my yahoo leagues and he is not available. If I had gotten him I would have won this week. Why is he not a even listed?

he's an IDP in yahoo

he is available in both my idp leagues as a linebacker...not sure what the requirement is for yahoo to add him at TE... but if finley comes back this week havner goes back to special teams back up player...

I should have been savvy enough to consider playing Havner as a high risk high reward IDP. I still won but Eric Barton got me two whole points.

just to clarify...if i play havner as an IDP I get the points he scores catching passes correct?

yahoo is terrible at player-pool management, in all sports

yes, you get the points.

He won my matchup for me, ha

See the IDP Thread comments regarding Havner.

I'm not trying to judge anyone, and that's true when I point out any ethics demarcation. People on these boards take it far too personally, make it personal, when I simply speak from a perspective of experience and applied principles. (Then I take it personally and that's never a good thing.)

Using a player at a position at which he does not play is an "exploit". An "exploit" is something built into a site or program that allows you to play outside the boundaries of the leagues rules or parameters (positional gaffes, limits glitches, trading windows).

As a Commissioner I would not allow a gamer to use Havner at LB in the leagues where I have total league rosters control. He has never played Linebacker in the NFL and getting points for him at that position is an "exploit". He is a Special Teams player and a Tight End, and a Backup Linebacker.

But I really don't care what the rest of you do. Really. Just letting you know that it is an ethics issue and the rest of the league might not dig you so much if you utilize the exploit. (Also, if you have a league constitution or if there is any clause in your rules prohibiting the use of "exploits" in any of their myriad forms then you will indeed run afoul of actual, written down rules. The league site might also have something covering "exploits" in their site rules.)

FYI, I'm not offended at all. I played him expecting him to get no points and I had no idea about the Finley situation. This in fact is the first piece of luck I've had all season, after choosing not to pick up Mike Wallace, Sidney Rice, Shonn Greene, or this week, Moats. Instead stuck with J. Harrison and Massaquoi.

I'd be lying if I said I was unhappy he scored me 15pts, but after the fact I'm not too pleased and would probably have started someone else instead.

There's no clause in our league about exploits, although I'm sure there will be after this week. And I don't think Yahoo has one (it was their fault). Anyway, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, since my Commish hasn't condemned the action and the person I beat organised an unfair trade with his roommate (also in the league) to make him unstoppable, except this week.

while i don't like TE's being played at LB, you can not change the rules mid-season, exploit or not. it is something to be handled in the off-season if your league/commish chooses.

this issue arises in baseball every year.

Well, if the trade was grossly unbalanced and you could reasonably conclude collusion THAT is worse than an exploit.

I just wish he was available at TE. Having just lost Owen Daniels I'd rather not rely on Todd Heap for the balance of the season. Bubba Francks circa 2001 numbers would work just fine for me.

Avoiding or nullifying "exploits" is not changing the rules. It is enforcing them. You aren't allowed to play Tom Brady at TE because he's not a TE. If some glitch in the program allowed such a high profile exploit you can bet your a$$$ gamers everywhere would be protesting. Loudly.

I would check the Yahoo! rules, I really would. They have an entire compendium that covers many situations not addressed specifically in league rules. In my opinion using such an exploit is wrong. He isn't a Linebacker. Period.

i can see your side, but i respectfully disagree.

the tom brady comparision is not appropriate.

Havner made his name as a linebacker. it was not until this preseason that he switched to TE. had injuries befallen the LB unit and not the TE unit, we may not be having this discussion.

this situation is like those in baseball. often, players in baseball spend their time in the minors at a difficult position, then switch to an 'easier' one when they get to the show. for that one season, they are still eligable to be played at the 'harder' position. the next season that eligibility is gone.

Yeah they had Colston eligible as a TE his rookie year. That was annoying.

that situation is similar. he was a WR all his senior year. but since some nfl person mentioned around the time he was drafted that he could be used as a TE in the nfl, he got, and retained, TE eligibility in fantasy.

in baseball, it all stems from whatever the elias sports bureau labels a players position as.

And I most strenuously, and just as respectfully, disagree.

Spencer Havner has never played Linebacker in the NFL. Ever. Ergo, he had no name as far as we were concerned, Bo.

Case in point: Michigan Coach Nick Saban wanted Antonio Gates, a Linebacker, to play only Football. Gates, also skilled at roundball, balked and transferred to EMU before ending up playing B-Ball at Kent State. He made his name at Forward.

He was never known as a Tight End until the preseason he practiced with the Chargers.
Yet, somehow, he was never listed at Power Forward or Linebacker in my Fantasy Leagues.

With Havner, Fantasy Sites have dropped the ball. He clearly wasn't a priority to the programmers and was simply overlooked.

Colston was changed at my site from TE to WR by the 3rd or 4th week. But even if he hadn't been, come ON gentlemen, at least he was being given points from not only the correct side of the action but as a receiver of some sort. If Havner makes a tackle this season he will do it after a turnover or on special teams. The man is not a defender.

We aren't animals. Human beings have the power of reason. We also have the power of rationalization. We are equally adept at both.
In this case I opt for reason: Havner is not a defender so his points should not (cannot) count in that role. It would be a breach of ethics.
Again, I don't care what you guys do. But don't put make-up on a pig and tell me she's your sister (unless, of course, she has been legally adopted).

Havner was all-american at LB in college, up for the Butkus. that was how he made his name and was his gateway to the NFL. it's not like he was being listed for a position he isn't known for.

i agree that this is an exploit, and that fantasy leagues missed it.

but, imo, it cant be changed unless you have a precedence set from previous seasons (like colston in your league) or a rule on the books.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that yahoo has a history of messing up positions. If I remember correctly it was never changed in my league, Colston was eligible as TE and/or WR all year. And it quite pissed me off, because the guy who snagged him was basically starting a stud WR in his TE spot while the rest of us were getting crap TE pts. I wish our commish would've manually changed his position to WR only, but then the guy would've bitched about changing things midseason and there would've been a big argument, might not of even been worth it. In the end the site just screwed us

And Gates was a First Team MAC Power Forward.

The fact remains, Gates was signed as an undrafted FA, same as Havner. Havner's stock fell through the bottom when he had arthroscopic surgery on his knee. Despite his collegiate laurels and accolades Havner had no cachet in the league for 3 years.
He was presented in his current role on June 18th. Plenty of time for the programmers to realize he was not a Linebacker. Since he had never played in the NFL, the casting of Havner at LB was just a reflection of lazy group think by the brotherhood of fantasy football programmers.

Bo, "exploits" are not predictable, nor are they uniform. That's why there is so much discussion here and why you and I, experienced fantasy gamers, differ on whether Havner was ever considered "known" as a Linebacker. So, it is up to us, with a little common sense and our experience as our guides to determine what exploits exist and how best to handle them. Then it is up to how to apply this knowledge to our interpretation of ethics.

There is an old quote of Oliver Wendell Holmes that goes "This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice." Well, I prefer "justice" when I can get it. I don't think all rules need to be written in stone, especially since as we have already acknowledged "exploits" vary wildly from situation to situation.

There can be a tacit understanding amongst owners that a league will tilt towards ethics rather than hard rules. Yes, it helps if there is an authority through which all rulings outside "law" are handed down. But I think a league can take it upon its collective self to have an understanding and respect for those unwritten rules that are clearly within the bounds of good gamesmanship as logic dictates. And as it pertains to this case, it is highly illogical and bordering on shady to award a Tight End Linebacker points and designation.
Sure, Tom Brady as a Tight End is an extreme example, but disregarding what his established position may have been in college it is still an appropriate analogy. He's not a TE and never has been one at the NFL level. Havner is not an LB and has not been one in an active NFL game. His lone tackle came on Special Teams.

That's it guys. That's all I got.

I know.
The Colston argument had (has) been brought up previously, Hoke, and I was just referencing it there as a way of being inclusive. I wasn't singling out your comments in regards to Yahoo!'s mis-designations. Sandbox is usually quick at correcting exploits, so I don't know what is going on there with Havner; the Box had taken care of Colston fairly quickly.

i agree it is an exploit.

i understand what you are saying, but gates doesn't fit this discussion. there are plenty of other examples that are more to the point.

i am seeing this through baseball-colored-glasses, to make my own (butchered) idiom.

and i agree, im done!

Man I loved taking advantage of Colston his rookie year. My TE in week 1 sucked, I looked to see who scored the most at TE and it was Colston. Little did I know he was playing WR and would blow up. A couple of the owners Im close with hated me that year, but said they wish they had him starting at TE.