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tj_drum

Ethics Question??

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Is it wrong if you are winning close going into MNF and your opponent doesnt have any players left playing to bench a player to avoid a negative effort?

Situation:

I am winning by .4 of a point and have the Arizona D playing MNF and he is out of players. Is it wrong for me to bench my D to avoid a negative out come or is it just good "coaching"??

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Is it wrong if you are winning close going into MNF and your opponent doesnt have any players left playing to bench a player to avoid a negative effort?

Situation:

I am winning by .4 of a point and have the Arizona D playing MNF and he is out of players. Is it wrong for me to bench my D to avoid a negative out come or is it just good "coaching"??

not wrong at all, but remember there could be a scoring adjustment and you lose. .4 is close i would probably play the D

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Nothing wrong about it but it could bite you in the a**. What if there's a stat correction later in the week that takes a point or two away from your team. Chances of ARI getting negative points against SF have to be pretty slim.

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too close to bench the D...stat corrections could kill you. Play the Defense

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Is it wrong if you are winning close going into MNF and your opponent doesnt have any players left playing to bench a player to avoid a negative effort?

Situation:

I am winning by .4 of a point and have the Arizona D playing MNF and he is out of players. Is it wrong for me to bench my D to avoid a negative out come or is it just good "coaching"??

What's your scoring system for defense?

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Earlier this season I was up 5 points in a competitive league where points for are the tiebreak...same situation...had the Giants D & he was done. Unfortunately, it was the Cleveland/Giants game & I lost by 2 (-7 points for 35+ points with no sacks or turnovers)...I'd bench them, you never know & it sucks terribly to lose that way...though a stat correction would suck

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I think it depends on your leagues scoring system...In my league id bench the defense b/c there is more of a likelyhood of a defense getting neg. points then a stat correction adversly effecting me

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Is it wrong if you are winning close going into MNF and your opponent doesnt have any players left playing to bench a player to avoid a negative effort?

Situation:

I am winning by .4 of a point and have the Arizona D playing MNF and he is out of players. Is it wrong for me to bench my D to avoid a negative out come or is it just good "coaching"??

There are tons of directions in which to take this question.

First: Folks, we are talking ethics, not rules. Anything that violates the spirit of the game is unethical.

tj_drum: Team D/ST is a part of your roster. You are talking about removing that part of your roster in order to preserve a Win (hopefully in your case) only because you have the fortune of:

1. Being in a league that allows pre-game changes

2.Have a lead going into Monday Night.

Altering your roster now means not playing a piece of it as created. Any gamer who got negative points for his D yesterday doesn't get to take it back.

You have an inkling of suspicion that this is unethical even though the league rules or the site allows you to do it otherwise you wouldn't be asking. You're inkling is right.

You should also heed the counsel of those reminding you of scoring changes and a** bites. Your lead is nowhere near comfortable enough for you to sit back and enjoy.

Anyway, while hardly a Turnover Machine, assuming you get some positive scoring for Sacks Arizona will plant Shaun Hill on the turf frequently enough tonight for them not to turn in a negative number.

Besides: The Cardinals are honoring the great Aeneas Williams tonight and Adrian Wilson is rounding back into All-Pro Form. A celebration of one of my all time favorite DBs has to bode well for the Cardinals D.

It just has to.

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Is it wrong if you are winning close going into MNF and your opponent doesnt have any players left playing to bench a player to avoid a negative effort?

Situation:

I am winning by .4 of a point and have the Arizona D playing MNF and he is out of players. Is it wrong for me to bench my D to avoid a negative out come or is it just good "coaching"??

It's not unethical to do it. Not at all. At first glance it would seem like a sound policy. However, as someone else pointed out, stat corrections are a killer. How many times does a defense score negative points in your league? Probably not a lot , particularly when the 49ers offense is involved. How many times is there a slight tweak in stats? Several times a game in my league. Keep the D in, collect the points.

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It's not unethical to do it. Not at all. At first glance it would seem like a sound policy. However, as someone else pointed out, stat corrections are a killer. How many times does a defense score negative points in your league? Probably not a lot , particularly when the 49ers offense is involved. How many times is there a slight tweak in stats? Several times a game in my league. Keep the D in, collect the points.

100% agree. This isn't an ethics situation. If you were doing this to somehow change the standings so you have a better chance of playing a lesser team in the playoffs, then ethics can be brought into question. But, since this effects you and only you, then do what you have to do. But, as others have pointed out, murphy's law will probably come into play. Don't mess with Murphy.

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Your kidding right? This is fantasy football, its suppose to be fun, play your defense tonight and cheer for them, honestly if you bench them i hope there is a stat correction and you lose its not life or death its a game.....

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100% agree. This isn't an ethics situation. If you were doing this to somehow change the standings so you have a better chance of playing a lesser team in the playoffs, then ethics can be brought into question. But, since this effects you and only you, then do what you have to do. But, as others have pointed out, murphy's law will probably come into play. Don't mess with Murphy.

Yes it is.

Yes it does affect the standings (though overall that is an awfully weird and narrow definition of what "ethics" means as applied to Fantasy Football/Sports).

No it doesn't.

No Gamer is allowed to retroactively take back a ZERO or NEGATIVE.

Right now TJ is looking to prevent having a NEGATIVE in order to preserve a win.

If his D/ST played yesterday he would not have a chance to do that.

So- He wants to completely nullify a position that he is supposed to fill in order to help his record, which I do believe would have an impact on the standings.

That is unethical.

I am sorry if that's the way you play and want to play. It's unethical. (Calling people's gaming habits unethical in Threads like this is how I "earned" my 3 star rating.)

It isn't against the rules, apparently in his league. In most leagues it would be: He would be failing to have a valid roster by pulling out a required unit. (BTW- The reason that rule exists in most leagues is to avoid the temptation of unethical acts like this one.)

This is not like Roto or any aggregate/accumulative scoring Min/Max limits scenario. The minimum has not been reached. He is taking advantage of a hole in the rules in order to intentionally not field a full team.

That is unethical. And as has already been said could bite him come THURS, the day most Fantasy Sites adjust scores after the league issues any changes on WED.

He only has this advantage due to scheduling times. That's not the way a true gamer chooses to exercise an advantage over his opponent.

Sorry, but there is a big difference between what is within the rules and what is ethical.

And that is all I have answered here as well. It's always up to the Gamer how he wants to win. But TJ asked and I answered.

Look- I was once p*ssed at a guy and used an exploit myself to make sure I won that league. What I did was unethical- one of only 2 times I have KNOWINGLY committed an unethical act in Fantasy Sports. FTR- I would have won anyway. But I took the insurance. It was bush and I never have and never will do it again.

But I did it then. And it was unethical.And I'm not going to pretend it wasn't.

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Yes it is.

Yes it does affect the standings (though overall that is an awfully weird and narrow definition of what "ethics" means as applied to Fantasy Football/Sports).

No it doesn't.

No Gamer is allowed to retroactively take back a ZERO or NEGATIVE.

Right now TJ is looking to prevent having a NEGATIVE in order to preserve a win.

If his D/ST played yesterday he would not have a chance to do that.

So- He wants to completely nullify a position that he is supposed to fill in order to help his record, which I do believe would have an impact on the standings.

That is unethical.

I am sorry if that's the way you play and want to play. It's unethical. (Calling people's gaming habits unethical in Threads like this is how I "earned" my 3 star rating.)

It isn't against the rules, apparently in his league. In most leagues it would be: He would be failing to have a valid roster by pulling out a required unit. (BTW- The reason that rule exists in most leagues is to avoid the temptation of unethical acts like this one.)

This is not like Roto or any aggregate/accumulative scoring Min/Max limits scenario. The minimum has not been reached. He is taking advantage of a hole in the rules in order to intentionally not field a full team.

That is unethical. And as has already been said could bite him come THURS, the day most Fantasy Sites adjust scores after the league issues any changes on WED.

He only has this advantage due to scheduling times. That's not the way a true gamer chooses to exercise an advantage over his opponent.

Sorry, but there is a big difference between what is within the rules and what is ethical.

And that is all I have answered here as well. It's always up to the Gamer how he wants to win. But TJ asked and I answered.

Look- I was once p*ssed at a guy and used an exploit myself to make sure I won that league. What I did was unethical- one of only 2 times I have KNOWINGLY committed an unethical act in Fantasy Sports. FTR- I would have won anyway. But I took the insurance. It was bush and I never have and never will do it again.

But I did it then. And it was unethical.And I'm not going to pretend it wasn't.

I disagree with you. It's not a "loophole". In my ten years of FF i've never heard it described as unethical. I bitch about everything. I spent a season writing to Yahoo about how screwed up it was that Colston was listed as a TE (the eventual champ started him in the TE slot every week, hey Tim...).

I've vigorously monitor trades in my leagues to make sure no collusion is taking place. I'm the first one to cry foul. This is not an occasion for that.

NFL teams are constantly resting players for playoff runs. Preseason games? Unethical? Nope, the only people that bitch are the fans, not the other competitors.

I watched the Eagles clinch a division after the first series. They pulled Westbrook, Garcia, most of the OL, Stallworth, and most of the Def. Did the Falcons cry about ethics?

Is it unethical for an NFL team to run the ball out with a huge lead? No, it's called preserving a win.

What you call unethical another might call playing it smart. All my leagues, by DEFAULT SETTINGS, allow you to change your starting lineup. Yahoo allows me to simply bench Anquan Boldin tonight if I chose to. Sportsline allows me to bench Tim Hightower only if I put another play who hasn't played in his place, a bye week Santana Moss, for example. No different than the NFL.

There's people with empty starting positions in most leagues. You'd be salivating if you were going against that guy, not trying to bring him up on charges.

The goal is to win the game for yourself. It has an impacts on STANDINGS because this guy is trying to win a game. Only when YOU give back a win you've had against a guy that had an open roster slot will you be able to even begin to truly weigh in.

As I stated previously: It's not something I would do since scoring changes seem more prevalent than ever. I reserve the term "unethical" for deceptive practices such as collusion and commissioner manipulations.

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I disagree with you. It's not a "loophole". In my ten years of FF i've never heard it described as unethical.

Then we disagree.

It is an exploit any time you can seal a victory by fielding an incomplete roster or find a way to play more than the allowed amount of players.

And I have played Fantasy Sports at least as long, Kerr, and at a pretty high level with some of the best in the business. (And, yes- I never won. But as long as I outfinished Brad my season was a success.)

Your analogies make no sense. No team goes up 20 points in a game and then rests their entire Defense, Kerr. That's ridiculous. This isn't even a "tanking" or dumping situation we're talking about: It's mid-game roster altering.

Furthermore, the games are not stretched over a 2 day period. All teams must submit and play their rosters at one time, not piecemeal

Also- We don't need to keep our players healthy for the playoffs. How absolutely lunatic is that particular analogy? That makes no conceivable sense at all.

And again- Your definition of ethics is too narrow. You are bringing RULES and LAWS into an ETHICS discussion.

NOW- Every league I play in, every league of which I am Commissioner has a LEGAL/VALID ACTIVE LINE-UP Rule.

Every legitimate league does.

You have to submit a valid or legal line-up and removing anyone would mean a big fat ZERO. That is how all the expert leagues I was ever in played out and I won't play in any league where people think submitting less than a full line-up is ethical. You CAN dump games still, but you'd have to put in BYE week or INJURED players prior to Deadline. And then you'd get caught dumping and have to find a new league to play in next year.

The positions are there for a reason. They complete the Line-Up. They are not suggestions.

Because YOU want to treat them as suggestions because there is no safeguard to such wanton roster manipulation does not make it ethical within the intent of gaming.

So your DEFAULT settings allow you to change your active roster before all games. Now, are you really trying to suggest that player substitution is the same as benching a player/position to preserve a win?

Again- The only thing you are demonstrating is that you know how to manipulate an exploit. The fact that your opponent can't step through a wormhole and take back a negative score but you can prevent getting one by benching a position should be a clue to you that what you are doing is tilting the playing field by redefining the game itself. He/she does not have that opportunity only because of the passage of time.

If you can't see that, yeah, we disagree.

And, I don't use Yahoo!

And AND- I know every damn exploit, Kerr. Every damn one. I'll never be at a loss. I know the difference between strategy, questionable strategy and cheating.

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I believe I am going to start my D/ST. Our scoring starts a D/ST with 8 points and it takes away points at a rate of .4 per point so 49ers would need to score 21+ and my defense not record any sacks/FR/INT (1point/2point/2Point) to go negative.

I play for a money league and Pride. I dont want a win if its in the least bit tarnished so I am going to play it out and see how it falls.

Go Cards!!! B)

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what was the exploit you took advantage of, titman?

I don't see ethics as having anything to do w/it ---- it's just a strategy question.

given the example mentioned, I'd play the def to avoid getting beat on stat corrections, but that's about it.

I do something similar, occasionally, when I leave an idp slot open pending monday's game.

that bit about being unfair since other teams don't get to retroactively subtract a negative is really off the mark, as he isn't doing anything retroactively, either.

those others had just as much chance to sit their def and avoid a possible negative.

another thing you might want to bear in mind, is that come playoff time you might wish you had those few extra points for a tiebreaker.

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I believe I am going to start my D/ST. Our scoring starts a D/ST with 8 points and it takes away points at a rate of .4 per point so 49ers would need to score 21+ and my defense not record any sacks/FR/INT (1point/2point/2Point) to go negative.

I play for a money league and Pride. I dont want a win if its in the least bit tarnished so I am going to play it out and see how it falls.

Go Cards!!! B)

Good for you.

They'll do fine.

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I don't really do this because the leagues I play in have total points as tiebreakers, and I think the extra points you'll rack up are worth the risk, unless your defensive settings make it really easy to go negative. However, I have to strongly disagree that it's unethical. You say it's an unfair advantage for him to be able to bench his D on Monday, but the guy he's playing has the same ability. If his opponent has any players going tonight he can change his lineup however he sees fit. I think it's just personal preference whether or not a league wants to allow it. I've never played in a league where it was required to field a complete roster so I don't think it's fair to say most leagues operate that way.

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what was the exploit you took advantage of, titman?

I don't see ethics as having anything to do w/it ---- it's just a strategy question.

given the example mentioned, I'd play the def to avoid getting beat on stat corrections, but that's about it.

I do something similar, occasionally, when I leave an idp slot open pending monday's game.

that bit about being unfair since other teams don't get to retroactively subtract a negative is really off the mark, as he isn't doing anything retroactively, either.

those others had just as much chance to sit their def and avoid a possible negative.

another thing you might want to bear in mind, is that come playoff time you might wish you had those few extra points for a tiebreaker.

But they are not in the position to KNOW that at the time EOM. That's where "retroactive" figures into the reasoning because he only has the ability to practice that strategy NOW because the way the other games played out, games that the opponent can't pick or choose whom he starts or doesn't.

Exploiting an advantage created only by the passage of time is not strategy. It's simply quitting. Quitting while you're ahead- and it carries risk. But quitting nonetheless.

You have for the week offered up an unfinished line-up intentionally in order to win the game.

You get out of having to field the same positions as your foe. You get to take one risk less than he HAD to, simply because of time.

Guys- That is an exploit. That is unethical.

And EOM- If you play NO IDP player come Monday, you too are playing with an incomplete line-up. I doubt you do because negative IDP performances are rare.

I hope that some of you can understand what I am trying to explain here. I have done my best and attacked it from every angle which I think has relevance and have tried to avoid "My apple can beat up your orange". For that I hope you can respect me despite that what you might feel is a legitimate strategy is not in my learned opinion that has as much to do with Fantasy Sports as ethics in every walk of life.

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You have for the week offered up an unfinished line-up intentionally ***in order to win the game***.

dude, that's the goal.

all you're taking advantage of here is the simple luck of good timing, which everyone will get throughout the course of a season.

or, if you want to get really carried away, maybe you benefit from the maniacal scheming of having a monday def, which is just a kind of insane strategy.

I don't leave a spot open very often, but it has come up occasionally.

I'm not trying to avoid any negatives, but sometimes I'm really roster crunched and would rather gamble on being disadvantaged one idp then have to cut a guy just for that week, so I'll roll dice on it and maybe pick up a late sunday or monday guy if I think it's really going to be close.

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Exploiting an advantage created only by the passage of time is not strategy. It's simply quitting. Quitting while you're ahead- and it carries risk. But quitting nonetheless.

a football team has gained a lead through playing four quarters and has a four point lead. they stop the opponent on the their own 6 yard line with one minute left after the opposing team has failed to tie the game with a pass to the endzone. the team with the lead now has the ball and the losing team has zero time outs. what do you do?

as you are quoted above, this seems to fall into your definition of 'exploiting an advantage created only by passage of time'.

is taking a knee unethical?

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It's not unethical because your team has put you in the position where you can do it, so you have won that luxury.

TitaniumMan is falsely comparing this to another team retroactively removing a negative performance after the fact but that is a bad comparison since you aren't removing the team knowing it was negative, you are hedging your bets by taking away an opportunity to score more points, which can hurt you in the long run.

I'm usually the first to cry foul over ethics violations, but this is definitely part of the game and in no way unethical, same as benching pitchers in baseball. Your team has earned you that right by putting you in this position.

That being said, start the cards since there's a better chance that a stat correction occurs than they score negative points.

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a football team has gained a lead through playing four quarters and has a four point lead. they stop the opponent on the their own 6 yard line with one minute left after the opposing team has failed to tie the game with a pass to the endzone. the team with the lead now has the ball and the losing team has zero time outs. what do you do?

as you are quoted above, this seems to fall into your definition of 'exploiting an advantage created only by passage of time'.

is taking a knee unethical?

Gee- I don't know: Are there suddenly less than 11 players on the field? Have you suddenly changed the roster restrictions? Did the team play all night without a Defense, go one light on Offense, without a QB in order to avoid any Interceptions?

C'mon. Use your head. The main point is that TJ would be altering the make-up of his ROSTER with knowledge only attainable AFTER THE FACT.

No football team walks out onto the field and says "Well, I guess we don't need a Defense tonight." C'mon.

And EOM Someone recently posted something akin to "Cheating helps you win? Wow- That's great, let's all do it!"

LOOK- Let me flip this around.

All of you who feel that this is ethical, you have to explain to me....

How is allowing roster restrictions to differ from team to team fair?

How is that ethical?

Should not every team have to play, be required to play with the same complete complement of players?

And if not, why?

Why no standard required*?

Variances are allowed team-to-team because of what day of the week it is?

If your answer is "Because it might interfere with your ability to win" that is the wrong answer.

TJ and apparently the great bulk of you can play with less than the full complement of a full roster and stay within your league's rules. It is still not fair for the reasons I have tried to explain, in vain, judging from all the hypothetical analogies that don't apply with which I have been met.

I am not trying to be a fascist. I am trying to keep a little something in the world of gaming that seems to be slipping away more and more each year as popularity grows.

*Again, that's why most leagues- outside of Yahoo! apparently- have rules regarding what constitutes a legal active line-up.

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