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mjb03003

IDP Scoring Format Central -- Questions, Concerns, etc.

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Greetings fellow IDP players.

I'm generally curious about the scoring format your leagues use.

I'm hoping to gain some ideas/suggestions for how to revise my league's IDP scoring format. We've become really tackle heavy, and I want to adjust things to reward big plays (sacks, turnovers) more, and make the league less about who is in position to make tackles.

Here's my scoring format:

Tackle Solo - 2

Tackle Assits - 1

Sack - 3

Interception - 3

Fumble Force - 2

Fumble Recovery - 2

Defensive TD - 6

Safety - 2

Pass Defended - 1

Block Kick - 2

I'm thinking of going to 1 point for solo tackles, 0.5 for assists, and bumping sacks, interceptions, and fumbles forced/recovered, but I'm not sure how much is too much or how it will impact the players who are owned.

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Solo Tackle - 1

Assisted Tackle - 0.5

Sack - 5

INT - 5

Forced Fumble - 3

Fumble Recovery - 2

TD - 6

Blocked Kick - 2

Safety - 4

50+ Yard INT Return TD Bonus - 2

50+ Yard Fumble Return TD Bonus - 2

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Tackle Solo - 2

Tackle Assits - 1

Sack - 3

Interception - 3

Fumble Force - 2

Fumble Recovery - 2

Defensive TD - 6

Safety - 2

Pass Defended - 1

Block Kick - 2

I'm thinking of going to 1 point for solo tackles, 0.5 for assists, and bumping sacks, interceptions, and fumbles forced/recovered, but I'm not sure how much is too much or how it will impact the players who are owned.

You're essentially giving 5 points per sack with the current setup, and it favors Linebackers over any other position (when including the tackle totals). Your setup also tends to devalue defensive backs, with the 3 pts per pick and 1 pt per PD.

In my league, Sacks are worth 3 points (making them 4 point plays), Interceptions are 4, and PD's are 2. That way, there's a little more balance between positions. I also give more for Fumble Forces than Recoveries; I've discussed this before, and rather go on at length (again), I'll summarize by saying that it is intended to reward the skill that led to the turnover.

I also give more for Safeties and Blocked Kicks (4 and 5, respectively). They're rare plays and if you are lucky enough to have someone do it, it should really mean something.

The net result is that we have about a dozen players averaging 10 pts per game for the season, with Willis leading the way at 12.30. There's a healthy mix of LB's and DB's in the top 25, but like most formats, I still haven't figured out how to get DE's more value. I could fatten up Sack points, but then that will really throw things out of whack in favor of LB's. As it is, Allen is a top-10 player, and Calais Campbell is in the top 30, and there's only two others in the top 100, JPP and Peppers.

Anyone have thoughts on how to build up D-linemen?

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You're essentially giving 5 points per sack with the current setup, and it favors Linebackers over any other position (when including the tackle totals). Your setup also tends to devalue defensive backs, with the 3 pts per pick and 1 pt per PD.

In my league, Sacks are worth 3 points (making them 4 point plays), Interceptions are 4, and PD's are 2. That way, there's a little more balance between positions. I also give more for Fumble Forces than Recoveries; I've discussed this before, and rather go on at length (again), I'll summarize by saying that it is intended to reward the skill that led to the turnover.

I also give more for Safeties and Blocked Kicks (4 and 5, respectively). They're rare plays and if you are lucky enough to have someone do it, it should really mean something.

The net result is that we have about a dozen players averaging 10 pts per game for the season, with Willis leading the way at 12.30. There's a healthy mix of LB's and DB's in the top 25, but like most formats, I still haven't figured out how to get DE's more value. I could fatten up Sack points, but then that will really throw things out of whack in favor of LB's. As it is, Allen is a top-10 player, and Calais Campbell is in the top 30, and there's only two others in the top 100, JPP and Peppers.

Anyone have thoughts on how to build up D-linemen?

thanks for posting, and I like all of your suggestions.

I don't think there is any way to boost DL without giving a similar boost to LBs and DBs. Maybe add tackles for loss as a category, since DLs tend to blow up running plays in the backfield and it's nearly as valuable in real life as a sack.

One other thing - I could have had this wrong all along but I was always under the impression that a sack was just a sack... Not a tackle plus a sack. If I've been wrong all along (definitely possible) then does a sack also count as a tackle for a loss? if that's the case wouldn't every sack count as a sack, a tackle for loss, and a regular tackle all at once? I feel like that would be really silly if the stat services didn't treat them as separate events.

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One other thing - I could have had this wrong all along but I was always under the impression that a sack was just a sack... Not a tackle plus a sack. If I've been wrong all along (definitely possible) then does a sack also count as a tackle for a loss? if that's the case wouldn't every sack count as a sack, a tackle for loss, and a regular tackle all at once? I feel like that would be really silly if the stat services didn't treat them as separate events.

It counts as both a Solo Tackle and as a Sack. It doesn't count as a TFL.

I don't remember TFL's being available in Yahoo. I'll have to check that out next season.

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It counts as both a Solo Tackle and as a Sack. It doesn't count as a TFL.

I don't remember TFL's being available in Yahoo. I'll have to check that out next season.

interesting that they would make that distinction that a sack is a tackle but not a tackle for loss.

I'll have to look into it in greater depth, I never used TFL before but I was looking at my settings earlier today and I did see it is an option (Yahoo league).

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Mine is very complex.

2 pts per solo tackle

1 pt for assisted tackle

12 pts for sack by DL

10 pts per sack by LB

8 pts per sack by DB

4 pts per PD by DB

3 pts per PD by LB

2 pts per PD by DL

6 pts per TD

6 pts per FR

6 pts per INT

2 pts per FF

.1 per return yards

2 pts for safety

6 pts for blocked kick (FG or punt)

Abraham 55 pts last night

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I played in a league that rewarded return yards the same as passing yards. the idea was that it would make every part of the game important, including special teams. It did change the way I looked at the game. suddenly punt situations weren't so boring anymore. Patrick Peterson was my IDP MVP. Ted Ginn and Randall Cobb were also solid contributors in this format

It also had:

1 point per tackle

6 per sack

4 per fumbles forced

3 per fumble recovered

6 per inception

6 for a safety

6 for a blocked kick

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Number of Punt Return TDs 6 points each

Punt Return Yards 1 point for every 25

Number of Kickoff Return TDs 6 points each

Kickoff Return Yards 1 point for every 25

Fumbles Lost (to Opponent) -3 points each

Fumble Recoveries (from Opponent) 3 points each

Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery TDs 6 points each

Forced Fumbles 3 points each

Interceptions Caught 3 points each

Passes Defensed 1 point each

Number of Blocked Field Goal TDs 6 points each

Blocked Field Goals 3 points each

Number of Missed Field Goal Return TDs 6 points each

Number of Blocked Punt TDs 6 points each

Blocked Punts 3 points each

Blocked Extra Points 3 points each

Tackles 1 point each

Sacked a QB 4 points each

Safeties 6 points each

Number of Defensive TDs 6 points each

TD = 6pts (even for offense), and everything works off that

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Anyone have thoughts on how to build up D-linemen?

Sites like MyFantasyLeague allow you to enter your scoring settings by position, so you can give DLs slightly more pts per tackle than LBs and DBs. Here's a league I played in last season that had this type of scoring system.

As for the scoring systems listed in this thread, it really depends on what you want for your league. Some prefer a tackle heavy system, while others weight scoring towards big plays like sacks and interceptions. My preference is for a system that strikes a balance between the two.

One thing I did notice is the devaluing of blocks and safeties in the systems mentioned. Considering that safeties occur on roughly .05% of snaps and blocked kicks happen .1% of the time, they should not be equal to of even lass than sacks, which occur on 3.2% of snaps. I tend to value blocks at 6-8 pts and safeties at 8-10 pts. I know it sounds crazy, but the data is really eye-opening, and supports this scoring. I also tend to value forced fumbles at roughly double that of fumble recoveries. Forcing a fumble is a skill, while recovering one is much more random. I prefer something like 1.5-2 pts per FR, and 3-4 pts per FF.

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I'm trying to figure out how to make D players more valuable. I had a thought or two about it and am looking for feedback.

1. Raise pt values for plays

2. Add more D positions to the roster

* Currently we run D, D, DL, DL, DB, DB (6 positions)

Rising pt values to me seemed logical but it really doesnt make the players more valuable because pts are raised across the board for everyone

Adding more positions will put more emphasis on D during draft because positions will be more scarce to get.

I'm trying to figure out a way to make fantasy football more like fantasy baseball where Pitchers/hitters are drafted closer together. Pitchers = Defensive players in football the way I compare it.

Thoughts and feedback are greatly appreciated!

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So are you saying you want your IDPs drafted in early rounds of the draft? If so, that may be a bit of a stretch. Even in the most competitive IDP leagues, the offensive players will always go first. I'm currently running a series of IDP mocks on MFL. Here's a link to the scoring system. It's a fairly balanced system, but I'm actually a little light on the tackles, and could easily bump it up to 2 pts per. Here's a link to the draft for that same mock.

It all depends on what you want to do here. But I did notice that you don't have a spot designated for just LBs. I'd definitely do that. So something like: 2 DL, 2 LB, 2 DB, and 1 D FLEX

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Interesting thank you for the feedback. I'm not saying to draft defensive in the first two rounds, but giving enough value to draft within rd 3 or 4 ? Seems like D positions don't go until at least rds 6 or 7

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I've seen JPP go as early as the 4th this year, but there's no reason to go IDP that early. In fact, you really sacrifice value by doing so. If you have IDPs starting to go in the 6th to 7th rounds, then your league is set up the right way.

Of course, if you want IDPs to go very early, you can always put together an IDP only league. That's not for the faint of heart, thought. B)

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I use:

16-team league:

7 total IDP

4 LB max

1 DL min

1 DB min

DL's are boring unless you own a Top 8 guy. Once you get past there, it's all junk.

There are thousands of DB's. You could literally pick guys off the wire each week.

Reducing those positions and increasing LB's forces team to acquire a stable of quality, steady linebackers.

It's worked for years in my league.

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I would definitely second jeff's suggestion about adding lb, regardless of what else you do.

I'm not sure what difference the rounds make, but you are looking at basically 2 components to manipulate -- scarcity and absolute point value.

I don't have any particular yen to equate points between idp and offense , but that's obviously something you could do.

what you'd want to do is go to whatever site where you can enter your league's scoring, pull up lists of the various positions, and tweak until they come out similar.

the key thing I think people overlook, though, is the scarcity angle, which is also why you see so many rb taken in the first round, traditionally.

so, if it bubbles up the rb position, break it down and apply it to idp.

our league uses a similar idp roster, but with lb, and I really don't think that's enough to create scarcity of idp position.

if you think about it this way, there are maybe 3 productive w/r/t on the field for each nfl team.

11 guys - 1 qb - 5 ol - 1 blocking player - 1 crummy 2nd receiver = 3 guys

this is obviously oversimplified, but it's just an illustration to show how the 5 o-linemen can really impact scarcity of offensive players.

on defense, you don't have 5 wasted linemen, although the dt isn't all that productive, if you don't split out dt, and there are so many 3-4 teams in the league the accounting gets tricky.

I'll say half the league runs 3-4, and of the front 7 players, there might be 3.5 that are in useful positions.

there are 4 more guys in the secondary, and I'll say that 2 of those might be drafted, leaving us with nearly 6 useful guys on defense, by position, as compared with only 3 on offense.

again, vastly oversimplified, but illustration of a point.

I think my team played about 7 w/r/t and 7 idp last year, but the idp player pool is maybe twice as deep, which cheapens the players drafted --- they are much more fungible because there are ready replacements, whereas every rb down to kick returners got hogged up in my league.

pull up a list of idp by position in your scoring system, figure how many are playable, and build your roster to create an equivalent scarcity to offensive players.

also, if you really want to bubble them up, you might need to tweak up scoring.

I'll give an example from my league ----

given a 12 teamer (ppr) starting 2 rb + flex, I'll call this 36 rb

the 36th rb in my league scored 33% of the top guy's score

meanwhile, although starting 2 lb + 1 flex also gives 36 lb, my 36th lb was equal to 61% of the top guy.

you actually have to go through nearly 100 lb to find a guy who came in at 33% of the top guy.

look at it that way, or just lump all w/r/t together and do the same comparison with all idp..

if you doubled your idp roster, just as example, I think you'd find the real studs and hypes going much earlier, but it's also dependent on scoring.

if each idp scored in a 1-3 range, while my offensive players scored in a 1-50 range, I probably don't give a crap about drafting stud idp over offense.

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wondering how you guys would look at your draft strategy with this scoring, and also if anyone sees a problem with the scoring in general? Should I bump any categories up or down? tia really appreciate any feedback

sacks, ints, forced fumbles - 4pts

all TDs, blocked kicks, safeties - 6pts

solo tackles, fumbles recovered - 2pts

asst tackles, passes defended - 1pt

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That's pretty close to my league, which means it's slightly slanted in the tackle heavy direction. Whether that is a problem is your preference. I like it this way as tackles are the only thing that is slightly easy to predict for IDP anyhow.

For reference, MLBs were 6 of the top 10 defenders overall and 11 of the top 20 overall in my league. There were 3 (non pass rushing) OLBs in the top 20, as well as 2CB, 3 Safeties, and 1 DE.

If you want to balance it out make an 8-10 tackle day equal a 2 tackles, 1 sack/INT day.

You'd need to make sacks/INTs around 10pts, (but that would make DBs slightly overvalued since they get a few more tackles than pass rushers) or you could cut your tackle points in half to 1pt for a tackle and .5 for an assist.

Hope I helped and didn't just confuse you... LOL

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If you're looking for draft strategy, I have a column in the RotoWorld draft guide on that very subject. The draft guide gets release tomorrow.

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That's pretty close to my league, which means it's slightly slanted in the tackle heavy direction. Whether that is a problem is your preference. I like it this way as tackles are the only thing that is slightly easy to predict for IDP anyhow.

For reference, MLBs were 6 of the top 10 defenders overall and 11 of the top 20 overall in my league. There were 3 (non pass rushing) OLBs in the top 20, as well as 2CB, 3 Safeties, and 1 DE.

If you want to balance it out make an 8-10 tackle day equal a 2 tackles, 1 sack/INT day.

You'd need to make sacks/INTs around 10pts, (but that would make DBs slightly overvalued since they get a few more tackles than pass rushers) or you could cut your tackle points in half to 1pt for a tackle and .5 for an assist.

Hope I helped and didn't just confuse you... LOL

lol no that was great thanks

I was kind of liking the idea that it was a little tackle heavy (MLB is my favorite position in football)

would you guys say that it's important to go LB early and often, especially in my scoring format because of their value? or go DL early because of the drop off after Allen/JPP?

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Im really thinking of trying to take my league to IDP next season, having the old standard Defense/Special Teams especially when everyone takes them late, streams them, etc.

I think by adding more starting players, you increase the odds that those owners with knowledge, etc will do better, take out more randomness that seems to prevail in FF. I know you can never completely eliminate it, but seems more things you give people to think about, spend their draft picks on, will help the better prepared owner.

So here is my question:

1. How many IDP spots do you normally have and play each week? I was thinking 2 Front 7 Guys and 2 Secondary guys, this would add 5 starters to normal QB, RB, RB, FL, WR WR WR/TE K. Is that enough to have difference makers where you value them where people might actually pay something for certain guys?

2. In leagues where you have IDP, how do they fall in the draft? Im hoping more than defenses do now.

3. How do you equate scoring, a good tackler will tackle more than a good WR catches passes.

4. I listed Front 7 because you have a lot of the hybrid guys in the 3-4, like Ware, etc. So I didnt want to go DL, LB, etc.

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1. I play in three IDP leagues. One has 3 LB, 3 DB, 1 DL, and 1 DP (any Defensive Player) and does NOT have D/ST. The second has 1 LB, 1 DL, 1 DB and retains D/ST. The third has 3 DP's and no D/ST. In your example, I would go 2 LB, 1 DL, and 2 DB. People may actually pay something, but in my experience that, like drafting kickers and defenses early, is a mistake. However, in the first IDP I am in, they have instituted a scoring system that makes defensive players valuable enough that you see LB for RB or WR trades. However, I still employ a strategy of IDP's after all offense for most part (Going for 3Peat in that league). 2. People will reach for IDPs, but it all depends on scoring setup. In the score-heavy league I have seen them go as high as 2nd round (actually 6th round since we keep 2 offense, 2 defense). In the other leagues, I would say still comparable to where D/ST start to go. There is still a guy in one league that reaches for Ray Lewis every year just because he likes him. 3. Really depends on what your goal is... 4. I am unsure if you can differentiate Front Seven. I know my leagues have always been LB DB DL. Those hybrid guys can sometimes be steals because of this (for example a couple years back Thomas Davis was DB eligible even though he was playing LB... hope that helped, feel free to message me as I do not check on IDP Forum very often

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It all depends on what you and your league feels comfortable with, but typically we don't divide up positions by front-7 and DBs. Instead, you'll have defensive linemen, linebackers, and defensive backs. The really in-depth leagues even sub-divide the DLs into DEs and DTs, and the DBs into CBs and Ss.

For a new league that wants to dive into IDP, I'd recommend starting 2 DLs, 3 LBs, and 2 DBs. There's a ton of depth at LB, so you're going to want that extra starting spot. This would give you seven offensive spots, seven IDP, and a kicker.

In terms of draft strategy, I actually have a column on IDP draft strategy that will be available as part of the Rotoworld Draft Guide content. I break down all the pre-draft considerations you need to make and then run you through a simulated draft, telling you when to consider going IDP and giving you players to target in those spots.

IDP scoring is a can of worms, and you can go in many directions. I'd recommend a balanced system where you award 1.5 pts for solo tackles, .75 pts for assisted tackes, 3-4 pts for sacks, 4-6 pts for interceptions, 1-2 pts for tackles for a loss, 1-1.5 pts for passes defensed, 6 pts for TDs, 8-10 pts for safeties and blocked kicks. Notice I put a range there for most categories. The lower end of the range will favor tackle producing players, and the higher will give more value to big play guys (like rush OLBs). And yes, 8-10 pts for safeties and blocked kicks. These are extremely rare, and any player who records one should be rewarded handsomely.

Good luck with your league, and welcome to the dark side. :ph34r:

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