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Baseball Jonze

Arizona D-Backs 2013 Outlook

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

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Does he still have his rapping business from last year? Also, I don't blame the D-Backs for trading him. He really is arrogant and I like the move because now they don't have to put up with it.

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

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Does he still have his rapping business from last year? Also, I don't blame the D-Backs for trading him. He really is arrogant and I like the me because now they don't have to put up with it.

Don't care how insufferable he is, this is an AWFUL deal for them. One of the worst I've seen in years.

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

I'm one of those who can't say a whole lot that's good for KC or Moore in the other trade - and yup, I cannot believe Towers made this one.

I realize they must have some major concerns on Bauer, but the whole take-home message from the TB-KC trade is that pitching is like platinum on the trade market.

Unbelievably poor return, barring a phoenix-like ascension of Gregorius (no way I can see Anderson or Sipp breaking out after this much time - I suppose Anderson's not quite done yet, but at 1B, such limited ceiling anyways, ESPECIALLY with Goldy at 1st..... WOW.) I thought Towers was nuts to consider Asdrubal & a prospect for Bauer - wow, it's like he got shell-gamed by a streetside hustler...

FWIW, Choo in that bandbox and lineup, hitting leadoff, moving to NL (and playing @ home in CIN, @ MIL, @ STL, @Wrigley...). Well, that sound you hear is the Choo hype train taking off. ;)

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What do people know about Didi? Is he a major league ready bat or does he still need some seasoning? What are some reasonable projections of what he can do with everyday playing time in AZ?

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

There is a difference between the two trades. KC gave up a top hitting prospect AND a top pitching prospect for 2 years of a meh pitcher. Arizona gave up a talented pithcing prospect with huge maturity issues for a solid reliever and 2 solid prospects. This trade is better than the KC one.

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I don't think I've ever seen two top five prospects traded within the same week.

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

There is a difference between the two trades. KC gave up a top hitting prospect AND a top pitching prospect for 2 years of a meh pitcher. Arizona gave up a talented pithcing prospect with huge maturity issues for a solid reliever and 2 solid prospects. This trade is better than the KC one.

Tony Sipp is a reliever with a huge HR rate, terrible fit in AZ. Lars Anderson isn't a prospect, he's been struggling in AAA the last few years.

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What do people know about Didi? Is he a major league ready bat or does he still need some seasoning? What are some reasonable projections of what he can do with everyday playing time in AZ?

REALLY solid glove, arm, footwork.

MAYBE solid contact skills.

Very little power, or speed.

And.. he's 23 this year - so hard to see him suddenly becoming a mega-talent offensively.

I mean, half your games in ARI, you could pull a Yuniesky Betancourt, I suppose, or best-case, Yunel Escobar - but that's his ceiling IMO.

As you can tell, I hate this deal the more & more I read about this from the Snakes' perspective.

I'm almost afraid to think what Towers was considering for the J-Up trade rumors. :blink:

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

There is a difference between the two trades. KC gave up a top hitting prospect AND a top pitching prospect for 2 years of a meh pitcher. Arizona gave up a talented pithcing prospect with huge maturity issues for a solid reliever and 2 solid prospects. This trade is better than the KC one.

Tony Sipp is a reliever with a huge HR rate, terrible fit in AZ. Lars Andersen isn't a prospect, he's been struggling in AAA the last few years.

To further emphasize the point - the reason why TB got a great haul for their pitching is because in real-life, pitching is just way more valuable and scarce on the trade market. For ARI to get this mediocre array of talent for a pitcher with 6 more years of team control and borderine ace ceiling (and SP2 is still a huge ceiling in real-life, even if you don't see him as a future ace), is just terrible. Sorry, I can't really see it any other way. Unless the Snakes know something about Gregorius that we don't, this looks like an awful deal - not because Bauer is a sure thing, but that keeping him and letting him pitch half a season and dominate AAA or in the bigs was more likely to get a MUCH bigger return. Barring a report that his shoulder is hanging by a thread, this is literally the sell-low scenarios we advise all owners to avoid making with their players - only to have Towers pull the move in real-life.

I understand this was likely the best deal out there - but honestly, this was selling Bauer at his absolute lowest value. Sipp & Anderson don't look to be difference makers at all, and Gregorius looks to be a great glove guy with league-average ceiling, barring a huge spike in tools (which at 23, WAY less likely than at 20, for example). Again, much like in the KC deal - Bauer doesn't even have to be an ace to make this a bad deal - because the potential return had they waited (barring an injury that no one sees right now), I don't see it being any lower, and the potential for it to be WAY higher, is, well, staggering.

I repeat - I worry for what Towers might have been considering in the J-Up talks. :o

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What do people know about Didi? Is he a major league ready bat or does he still need some seasoning? What are some reasonable projections of what he can do with everyday playing time in AZ?

REALLY solid glove, arm, footwork.

MAYBE solid contact skills.

Very little power, or speed.

And.. he's 23 this year - so hard to see him suddenly becoming a mega-talent offensively.

I mean, half your games in ARI, you could pull a Yuniesky Betancourt, I suppose, or best-case, Yunel Escobar - but that's his ceiling IMO.

As you can tell, I hate this deal the more & more I read about this from the Snakes' perspective.

I'm almost afraid to think what Towers was considering for the J-Up trade rumors. :blink:

Thanks RRF!

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

There is a difference between the two trades. KC gave up a top hitting prospect AND a top pitching prospect for 2 years of a meh pitcher. Arizona gave up a talented pithcing prospect with huge maturity issues for a solid reliever and 2 solid prospects. This trade is better than the KC one.

Tony Sipp is a reliever with a huge HR rate, terrible fit in AZ. Lars Andersen isn't a prospect, he's been struggling in AAA the last few years.

To further emphasize the point - the reason why TB got a great haul for their pitching is because in real-life, pitching is just way more valuable and scarce on the trade market. For ARI to get this mediocre array of talent, is just terrible. Sorry, I can't really see it any other way. Unless the Snakes know something about Gregorius that we don't, this looks like an awful deal - not because Bauer is a sure thing, but that keeping him and letting him pitch half a season and dominate AAA or in the bigs was more likely to get a MUCH bigger return.

I understand this was likely the best deal out there - but honestly, this was selling Bauer at his lowest. Sipp & Anderson don't look to be difference makers at all, and Gregorius looks to be a great glove guy with league-average ceiling, barring a huge spike in tools (which at 23, WAY less likely than at 20, for example).

I repeat - I worry for what Towers might have been considering in the J-Up talks. :o

I agree completely RRF. It's beyond awful. How anyone could defend this deal is beyond me.

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

There is a difference between the two trades. KC gave up a top hitting prospect AND a top pitching prospect for 2 years of a meh pitcher. Arizona gave up a talented pithcing prospect with huge maturity issues for a solid reliever and 2 solid prospects. This trade is better than the KC one.

Tony Sipp is a reliever with a huge HR rate, terrible fit in AZ. Lars Andersen isn't a prospect, he's been struggling in AAA the last few years.

To further emphasize the point - the reason why TB got a great haul for their pitching is because in real-life, pitching is just way more valuable and scarce on the trade market. For ARI to get this mediocre array of talent, is just terrible. Sorry, I can't really see it any other way. Unless the Snakes know something about Gregorius that we don't, this looks like an awful deal - not because Bauer is a sure thing, but that keeping him and letting him pitch half a season and dominate AAA or in the bigs was more likely to get a MUCH bigger return.

I understand this was likely the best deal out there - but honestly, this was selling Bauer at his lowest. Sipp & Anderson don't look to be difference makers at all, and Gregorius looks to be a great glove guy with league-average ceiling, barring a huge spike in tools (which at 23, WAY less likely than at 20, for example).

I repeat - I worry for what Towers might have been considering in the J-Up talks. :o

I agree completely RRF. It's beyond awful. How anyone could defend this deal is beyond me.

Brutal deal, no matter what type of issues Bauer had, he was worth far more than what they got back. I mean honestly, is the upgrade from Pennington worth losing Bauer over? It sure doesnt seem like it and their bullpen was already in good shape so it seems like bullpen additions were a luxury, not a need at all.

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

There is a difference between the two trades. KC gave up a top hitting prospect AND a top pitching prospect for 2 years of a meh pitcher. Arizona gave up a talented pithcing prospect with huge maturity issues for a solid reliever and 2 solid prospects. This trade is better than the KC one.

Tony Sipp is a reliever with a huge HR rate, terrible fit in AZ. Lars Andersen isn't a prospect, he's been struggling in AAA the last few years.

To further emphasize the point - the reason why TB got a great haul for their pitching is because in real-life, pitching is just way more valuable and scarce on the trade market. For ARI to get this mediocre array of talent, is just terrible. Sorry, I can't really see it any other way. Unless the Snakes know something about Gregorius that we don't, this looks like an awful deal - not because Bauer is a sure thing, but that keeping him and letting him pitch half a season and dominate AAA or in the bigs was more likely to get a MUCH bigger return.

I understand this was likely the best deal out there - but honestly, this was selling Bauer at his lowest. Sipp & Anderson don't look to be difference makers at all, and Gregorius looks to be a great glove guy with league-average ceiling, barring a huge spike in tools (which at 23, WAY less likely than at 20, for example).

I repeat - I worry for what Towers might have been considering in the J-Up talks. :o

I agree completely RRF. It's beyond awful. How anyone could defend this deal is beyond me.

Brutal deal, no matter what type of issues Bauer had, he was worth far more than what they got back. I mean honestly, is the upgrade from Pennington worth losing Bauer over? It sure doesnt seem like it and their bullpen was already in good shape so it seems like bullpen additions were a luxury, not a need at all.

Don't forget - Anderson is a 1B - and his power ceiling is limited, and he's still in the MILB at age 25, with a SLG. in the 400's (only in 2008 did he hit the .500+ mark, and the other years, it was uggggly).

Plus, they have Goldy at 1B - more power, higher ceiling, same age...

Again, to be clear - Bauer doesn't even need to be an ace or SP2 to make this a horrible deal. The return was so unspectacular, staggering is the word that keeps coming back to me.

I am convinced Walt Jocketty and Chris Antonetti cashed in their incriminating photos of Towers at last week's GM meetings. :blink:

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Good haul for Indians - Choo for Stubbs and Bauer. I don't know what Az was thinking is Gregorius even a highly thought of prospect?

Everyone killed Dayton Moore for the Myers-Shields trade, but this move by Towers is much worse. Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, and Lars Andersen? While giving up a potential top of the rotation pitcher. I'd be furious if I were an Arizona fan. Bauer must be incredibly insufferable if Towers was willing to give him away for this package. I think Francona may be able to manage his personality a bit better than a harda** like Gibson.

There is a difference between the two trades. KC gave up a top hitting prospect AND a top pitching prospect for 2 years of a meh pitcher. Arizona gave up a talented pithcing prospect with huge maturity issues for a solid reliever and 2 solid prospects. This trade is better than the KC one.

Calling Shields a Meh pitcher is pretty silly.

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What I find interesting is that Cincy could have gotten Bauer directly but chose Choo.....think he will be awesome with the reds....but would have loved the pitcher

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What I find interesting is that Cincy could have gotten Bauer directly but chose Choo.....think he will be awesome with the reds....but would have loved the pitcher

With Stubbs gone, CIN looking to be a WS winner now & 2014 - Choo going to CF, and high-contact, OBP, 20/20 guy to replace the high K, low OBP Stubbs (leadoff was a huge weakness for that lineup) - also signed cheaply for 2 more years.

Exact contrast to KC argument - CIN is a clear contender, so they see their window as now - so they don't want to develop Bauer this year & next (because most SP's need 1-2 full years in bigs), but get better right now. And with Cozart and Billy Hamilton (who I think ends up in CF anyways, replacing Choo by 2014/2015 (Ludwick gone after 2014 too), they had zero need for Gregorius, and no need for a 1B/LHP RP. Again, not to derail the thread, but with a known contender, I see this move totally from CIN's perspective (and of course CLE's).

Still waiting for the incriminating-pics-on-Towers angle to gather steam. :lol:

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Bauer didn't even make BA's midseason top 50. his star has really dimmed.

Gregorius was named here: http://www.fangraphs...tstops-of-2012/ as the post-season #7 SS. apparently he is a fantastic defensive SS.

I don't claim to be a talent evaluator nor did I watch any of Bauer's milb starts, but sometimes when one guy's stock is heading up, and another's is heading down, our perceptions lag behind the true reality. we could look at this in 3 years as the D'Backs selling off Bauer while he was still worth something. not saying it's going to happen, just that things change fast with prospects.

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how about drew stubbs? is he now undraftable in 10 teamers? guy is so streakey he's hard to roster from start to finish, even in a 12 team h2h he could be waiver wire material? i gotta look more in depth at the pool of OFs this year to see where he'd rank, but i know he was cut for periods in at least two of my 12 teamers last year. Take him off the Reds and I dunno, it's not gonna help.

As for the indians, no choo would hurt carlos santana and asdrubal a bit. not sure where they are gonna get the consistent offense from.

i also kinda like how everyone is calling bauer a douche. you don't have to be such a crazy iconoclast to get that kinda label in baseball. anyone in baseball who has an opinion or unique way of doing things is outcast. so im rooting for the kid.

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Bauer didn't even make BA's midseason top 50. his star has really dimmed.

Gregorius was named here: http://www.fangraphs...tstops-of-2012/ as the post-season #7 SS. apparently he is a fantastic defensive SS.

I don't claim to be a talent evaluator nor did I watch any of Bauer's milb starts, but sometimes when one guy's stock is heading up, and another's is heading down, our perceptions lag behind the true reality. we could look at this in 3 years as the D'Backs selling off Bauer while he was still worth something. not saying it's going to happen, just that things change fast with prospects.

BA kept him off the top 50 list because he was called up a week prior, and likely assumed he'd hit the 50+ IP to lose rookie status. FWIW, the major sources still have Bauer in the overall top 10 (including BA, if I recall their chat from a while back).

As collateral evidence - BA's Take on Trade. Badler still considers him an elite SP prospect with ace potential, posted just this past hour . Yikes.

BTW, fantastic write-up on why CIN took Choo as their target - http://www.fangraphs...-shin-soo-choo/

EDIT: 1st link failed, re-trying now, it's not paid content that I can see...

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Posted · Hidden by RotoRaysfan, December 12, 2012 - No reason given · Report post

Bauer didn't even make BA's midseason top 50. his star has really dimmed.

Gregorius was named here: http://www.fangraphs...tstops-of-2012/ as the post-season #7 SS. apparently he is a fantastic defensive SS.

I don't claim to be a talent evaluator nor did I watch any of Bauer's milb starts, but sometimes when one guy's stock is heading up, and another's is heading down, our perceptions lag behind the true reality. we could look at this in 3 years as the D'Backs selling off Bauer while he was still worth something. not saying it's going to happen, just that things change fast with prospects.

BA kept him off the top 50 list because he was called up a week prior, and likely assumed he'd hit the 50+ IP to lose rookie status.

As collateral evidence - http://www.baseballa...2/2614454.html.

Badler still considers him an elite SP with ace potential. Yikes.

BTW, fantastic write-up on why CIN took Choo as their target - http://www.fangraphs...-shin-soo-choo/

I don't have a subscription to BA. was that in the "further analysis" link?

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Bauer didn't even make BA's midseason top 50. his star has really dimmed.

Gregorius was named here: http://www.fangraphs...tstops-of-2012/ as the post-season #7 SS. apparently he is a fantastic defensive SS.

I don't claim to be a talent evaluator nor did I watch any of Bauer's milb starts, but sometimes when one guy's stock is heading up, and another's is heading down, our perceptions lag behind the true reality. we could look at this in 3 years as the D'Backs selling off Bauer while he was still worth something. not saying it's going to happen, just that things change fast with prospects.

BA kept him off the top 50 list because he was called up a week prior, and likely assumed he'd hit the 50+ IP to lose rookie status. FWIW, the major sources still have Bauer in the overall top 10 (including BA, if I recall their chat from a while back).

As collateral evidence - BA's Take on Trade. Badler still considers him an elite SP prospect with ace potential, posted just this past hour . Yikes.

BTW, fantastic write-up on why CIN took Choo as their target - http://www.fangraphs...-shin-soo-choo/

okay wow, all this time I thought they really dinged him this summer. thanks for setting me straight.

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