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colepenhagen

Greatest Players in Each Sport

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i know its very early in both their careers but could we be watching the best position player and starting pitcher to ever play the game?

ik its a stupid argument considering no one will even know but what kershaw and trout have done in their first couple years in the big league is amazing and dont know of anyone who has been this great, this young, consistently to start their careers (let me know if you can think of anyone)

kershaw after this year will have 3 cy youngs and probably and mvp... he could have 4 cy youngs if he got more run support considering he had better numbers than dickey

trout could have 3 mvps before he was 23 if miggy isnt there (i value trouts defense and think he should have won mvp)

not just numbers and awards just how dominate they look is crazy

just hope both have long healthy careers

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well you could almost argue they are the best since 2000 which is about 10% of baseball history but then when you see what Randy Johnson and Barry Bonds did in the 2nd half of their careers 2000-2004 even that is a tough sell

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Please someone post a couple of babe Ruth's stats, it'll blow your mind. There are several people I think are better statistically

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well you could almost argue they are the best since 2000 which is about 10% of baseball history but then when you see what Randy Johnson and Barry Bonds did in the 2nd half of their careers 2000-2004 even that is a tough sell

bonds peds doesnt matter

maybe later in his career but kershaw dominate the units number first 6 years in the league by about a whole 2 points lower in era

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Please someone post a couple of babe Ruth's stats, it'll blow your mind. There are several people I think are better statistically

sorry but i bet there are 20-30 current major league players better than ruth

remember ruth was seeing 85mph not consistent 95 not to mention seeing the same guy 4 -5 times a night theres so much more i could go into

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well you could almost argue they are the best since 2000 which is about 10% of baseball history but then when you see what Randy Johnson and Barry Bonds did in the 2nd half of their careers 2000-2004 even that is a tough sell

the unit only had a sub 3 era 7 times in 22 years

kershaw has a sub 3 era in all 6 of his full years in the MLB

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No where did it mention better players/ better competition. The better competition has nothing to do with this forum, if you look statistically there are several players that blow trout out of the water. And more to the point if you look at better competition you'd have to throw out every year prior to 10 years ago. The competition is better today then it has ever been. So please don't use competition for your reasoning.

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Please someone post a couple of babe Ruth's stats, it'll blow your mind. There are several people I think are better statistically

The competition back then had to really suck compared to now.

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No where did it mention better players/ better competition. The better competition has nothing to do with this forum, if you look statistically there are several players that blow trout out of the water. And more to the point if you look at better competition you'd have to throw out every year prior to 10 years ago. The competition is better today then it has ever been. So please don't use competition for your reasoning.

fair enough but considering the competition back then compared to today the stats are skewed

considering ruth didnt become a position player until he was 24

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If you guys are using competition as part of the measuring stick, which I agree with, then you need to recognize how unreal it was that guys like Maddux & Pedro were putting up sub-2 ERAs in the middle of the steroid era.

Kershaw is great, but he's not in their class. Not yet, anyway.

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No where did it mention better players/ better competition. The better competition has nothing to do with this forum, if you look statistically there are several players that blow trout out of the water. And more to the point if you look at better competition you'd have to throw out every year prior to 10 years ago. The competition is better today then it has ever been. So please don't use competition for your reasoning.

fair enough but considering the competition back then compared to today the stats are skewed

considering ruth didnt become a position player until he was 24

But here's the thing if hitting was so easy back than and everyone raked because pitchers were throwing meatballs 24/7 then how come some pitchers were able to post some of the greatest pitching seasons in history back then Babe Ruth himself was an amazing pitcher but like Walter Johnson was insane

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If you guys are using competition as part of the measuring stick, which I agree with, then you need to recognize how unreal it was that guys like Maddux & Pedro were putting up sub-2 ERAs in the middle of the steroid era.

Kershaw is great, but he's not in their class. Not yet, anyway.

agree to a point theres still juicers today braun arod melky a bunch more that get around it

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No where did it mention better players/ better competition. The better competition has nothing to do with this forum, if you look statistically there are several players that blow trout out of the water. And more to the point if you look at better competition you'd have to throw out every year prior to 10 years ago. The competition is better today then it has ever been. So please don't use competition for your reasoning.

fair enough but considering the competition back then compared to today the stats are skewed

considering ruth didnt become a position player until he was 24

But here's the thing if hitting was so easy back than and everyone raked because pitchers were throwing meatballs 24/7 then how come some pitchers were able to post some of the greatest pitching seasons in history back then Babe Ruth himself was an amazing pitcher but like Walter Johnson was insane

theres going to be dominate pitchers in every era and dominate hitteres in every era just cause a handful of guys like walter johnson doesnt mean alot to me

dont get me wrong babe ruth was the best of his time and era hands down but compared to how the game has evolved today its hard to argue against todays competition not being head and shoulders better than ruths

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well you could almost argue they are the best since 2000 which is about 10% of baseball history but then when you see what Randy Johnson and Barry Bonds did in the 2nd half of their careers 2000-2004 even that is a tough sell

the unit only had a sub 3 era 7 times in 22 years

kershaw has a sub 3 era in all 6 of his full years in the MLB

This is flawed reasoning because of the inflated offensive stats in the steroid era. For his career, The Big Unit had a 135 ERA+, and he didn't even become really good until age 29. Right now, Kershaw is at a career 152 ERA+, which is insane, but he's also already thrown a lot of innings and he's only 26 years old, so who knows how long he'll be so dominant. A few years ago, it looked like Johan Santana would become an all-time great, and he's already toast. So let's enjoy Kershaw and Trout while they're at the top of their game and see where things are a few years from now.

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well you could almost argue they are the best since 2000 which is about 10% of baseball history but then when you see what Randy Johnson and Barry Bonds did in the 2nd half of their careers 2000-2004 even that is a tough sell

the unit only had a sub 3 era 7 times in 22 years

kershaw has a sub 3 era in all 6 of his full years in the MLB

This is flawed reasoning because of the inflated offensive stats in the steroid era. For his career, The Big Unit had a 135 ERA+, and he didn't even become really good until age 29. Right now, Kershaw is at a career 152 ERA+, which is insane, but he's also already thrown a lot of innings and he's only 26 years old, so who knows how long he'll be so dominant. A few years ago, it looked like Johan Santana would become an all-time great, and he's already toast. So let's enjoy Kershaw and Trout while they're at the top of their game and see where things are a few years from now.

exactly kershaw has been so dominate right out the gate its hard not to talk about him like this

and johan was never talked about as an all time great check his numbers not that impressive at all

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If you guys are using competition as part of the measuring stick, which I agree with, then you need to recognize how unreal it was that guys like Maddux & Pedro were putting up sub-2 ERAs in the middle of the steroid era.

Kershaw is great, but he's not in their class. Not yet, anyway.

I saw this tweet from Joe Sheehan:

Joe Sheehan @joe_sheehan

Five lowest-scoring seasons since Deadball II ended ('68): 1972, 1971, 1976, 1981*, 2014.

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If you guys are using competition as part of the measuring stick, which I agree with, then you need to recognize how unreal it was that guys like Maddux & Pedro were putting up sub-2 ERAs in the middle of the steroid era.

Kershaw is great, but he's not in their class. Not yet, anyway.

I saw this tweet from Joe Sheehan:

Joe Sheehan @joe_sheehan

Five lowest-scoring seasons since Deadball II ended ('68): 1972, 1971, 1976, 1981*, 2014.

is this total runs for mlb?

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Please someone post a couple of babe Ruth's stats, it'll blow your mind. There are several people I think are better statistically

sorry but i bet there are 20-30 current major league players better than ruth

remember ruth was seeing 85mph not consistent 95 not to mention seeing the same guy 4 -5 times a night theres so much more i could go into

So what. And back then nobody knew how to train. Nowadays, batters look like football players whereas back then they looked like regular people. Every single at bat a player has ever taken and every single pitch a pitcher has ever thrown can be reviewed and studied by video. Guys in Ruth's era were lucky to know what a pitcher looked like, much less what he threw.

Anyway, people just want to feel like they are experiencing something special, so obviously they unfairly weight the players they are watching. Happens all the time, and in everything from movies to music to politics and everything in between.

In reality, it makes little sense to compare players across generations because the contexts are irrevocably incomparable. Society is so hung up on naming somebody or something "the best". It's a futile pursuit, IMO.

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Oh, and one more thing. There's no such word as "dominate" in the context that people in this forum keep using it. The word is "dominant".

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well you could almost argue they are the best since 2000 which is about 10% of baseball history but then when you see what Randy Johnson and Barry Bonds did in the 2nd half of their careers 2000-2004 even that is a tough sell

the unit only had a sub 3 era 7 times in 22 years

kershaw has a sub 3 era in all 6 of his full years in the MLB

This is flawed reasoning because of the inflated offensive stats in the steroid era. For his career, The Big Unit had a 135 ERA+, and he didn't even become really good until age 29. Right now, Kershaw is at a career 152 ERA+, which is insane, but he's also already thrown a lot of innings and he's only 26 years old, so who knows how long he'll be so dominant. A few years ago, it looked like Johan Santana would become an all-time great, and he's already toast. So let's enjoy Kershaw and Trout while they're at the top of their game and see where things are a few years from now.

exactly kershaw has been so dominate right out the gate its hard not to talk about him like this

and johan was never talked about as an all time great check his numbers not that impressive at all

I disagree on Johan. Short career and made it to 50 bWAR anyway, 136 ERA+ including a quite impressive peak. He was on his way to being among the best pitchers who had their prime during the tail end of the steroid era/bridge to this deadfall era, but injuries did him in.

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dee bess player to ever play dee game is Sammy Sosa. beisbol haz been beddy beddy gud 2 heem

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Adjusted ERA+ from Baseball Reference is one of the better stats around, as it controls for league offense levels and park effects. Kershaw is having a nice season -- 25th best all-time not counting today's start. Too bad for him that Pedro had *three* seasons better than Kershaw's current year ('97, '99, '00). Maddux, two. Clemens, two. Oh, and Walter Johnson had four better seasons than Kershaw 2014.

I don't see any recent MLB pitcher close to Walter Johnson. 14 years leading the league in Ks. 7 years leading the league in FIP. 5 years leading the league in IP. Two MVP awards (only Hal Newhouser and Carl Hubbell did that). A few pitchers had similar peaks (Koufax, Pedro, Maddux), but nobody had the sustained dominance that he had.

Look at Johnson's 10-year run from 1910-1919. His *worst* totals in any year:

290 IP (led the league 5 times in 10 years)

20 wins (led the league five times in 10 years)

147 Ks (Led the league 9 times in 10 years.

2.21 ERA (led the league 4 times in 10 years)

120 ERA+ (led the league 7 times in 10 years)

Three top-5 MVP ballots

If Kershaw keeps up his 2011-2014 numbers for another six seasons, then we can start saying that he's better than The Big Train. Until then, I don't think anyone even comes close.

I'm not going to get into the "talent was different then" argument. So was training. So was Dr. Frank Jobe. So was the slider and the split-finger, which didn't exist until the 1960s. You can only judge players in their own context.

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If you guys are using competition as part of the measuring stick, which I agree with, then you need to recognize how unreal it was that guys like Maddux & Pedro were putting up sub-2 ERAs in the middle of the steroid era.

Kershaw is great, but he's not in their class. Not yet, anyway.

Was going to post this...beat me to it...

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