Sign in to follow this  
elite

Colin Kaepernick 2017 Season Outlook

Recommended Posts

This thread has.....unraveled. We are discussing everything, but Kaep lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, pikerbkb said:

This thread has.....unraveled. We are discussing everything, but Kaep lol. 

Yeah well....it was teetering dangerously close to mod intervention so this is an improvement

 

I will say...the Kaep to Seattle narrative is interesting.  Can run the same offense Wilson does

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TX Babe Ruth said:

In fantasy, he's top 5(except 4 two seasons), but in real life he is top 10-15..still not bad, but I go beyond the numbers.

I look at his weapons.

I look at his leadership skills.

Does Cam make the guys around him better? 

He was the NFL MVP.

3 Pro-bowl appearances.

He made an appearance to the SB in his 5th season.

 

Elite, Great, Good are all subjective adjectives in my humble opinion...

 

After much thought, I reluctantly agree. He may not be an elite passer by today's standards, but he is a great QB. There is really no one like him. If Kaepernick had a big brother, it would be Cam. Statistically he has some very good totals and averages, but you really can't measure his overall effectiveness with normal QB metrics. In a way, Cam is kind of a cross between a throwback, old school QB and a genetically engineered alien giant. His completion percentage might be borderline by today's standards, but he simply has the the physical tools and skills to will a team to victory.....except in Super Bowls..... hyperbole/

 

 

Edited by pikerbkb
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

 

Does he?  I don't watch him enough to argue it but I don't recall hearing that said all that often.  I know he's pretty good but is he that type of talent?  Did he really make Woodhead or Gates better?  I'm not sure honestly.

 

No he didn't. He's been surrounded by elite talent his entire career. Few franchise QBs have done less with more (Tomlinson, Gates, Sproles, Turner, Vincent Jackson all in their primes + an elite OL the first 7 years of his career). Even with the injuries he's faced the past 2-3 years, that rosters isn't lacking for talent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, joshua18 said:

 

No he didn't. He's been surrounded by elite talent his entire career. Few franchise QBs have done less with more (Tomlinson, Gates, Sproles, Turner, Vincent Jackson all in their primes + an elite OL the first 7 years of his career). Even with the injuries he's faced the past 2-3 years, that rosters isn't lacking for talent. 

 

I didn't think it was really lacking talent but I don't pay too much attention to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, joshua18 said:

 

No he didn't. He's been surrounded by elite talent his entire career. Few franchise QBs have done less with more (Tomlinson, Gates, Sproles, Turner, Vincent Jackson all in their primes + an elite OL the first 7 years of his career). Even with the injuries he's faced the past 2-3 years, that rosters isn't lacking for talent. 

What are you talking about Joshua??? That's like saying Dan Marino didn't raise the level of play from his teammates. Rivers is an artist with the football.

 

 

 

Edited by pikerbkb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, pikerbkb said:

What are you talking about Joshua??? That's like saying Dan Marino didn't raise the level of play from his teammates. 

 

Name a HOF skill position player in his prime that Marino played with. Marino did a ton with virtually nothing around him. Imagine what he would have done with prime Gates and prime Tomlinson to work with. 

 

Rivers cant hold Marino's jockstrap...as we've seen the past 2 years, he can't even lead his team to victory more than Kaepernick. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jbshaw said:

Remarkably average in completion percentage, and not great in YPA (3 of his seasons fall into the top 100 since he joined the league, none in top 40 [among QBs with at least 100 attempts]). His MVP year he was elite in TD percentage, but he hasn't been great across the rest of his career.  His MVP year is his only appearance with above average interception percentage (as in lower than average, ie good).  

 

So when you ask what has he been average or failed at?  He's been average, with an outlier season, in his passing metrics.  His rushing makes him a better QB than your garden variety average passer. Someone saying he's not elite has numbers on their side outside of his MVP season.  Someone saying he is elite either has a VERY loose definition of elite, or focuses more on the upside he's shown and assuming 2015 is close to status quo and that 2016 is the outlier.  

 

Now, what he does he does well.  His YPA is very high for his completion percentage, so that suggests he's a pretty good deep passer.  While he wasn't nearly as efficient as his comparables (at least in stats) last year, he is a great rushing QB. But when I'm building a QB, those are added bonuses, not the core of the position.  So I don't value that nearly as much as others might. 

Again,

 

Wrapped around the passer stats axle. We can talk about any QB and frame it any way we want when we start to frame/emphasize and discount specific stats.

 

It isn't worth discussing if we're looking at him, discounting all phases of the game, and trying to simply compare him to what people think are the conventions of QB. 

 

It is irrelevant how you would build your team. Just as it would be irrelevant for me to introduce how I'd hypothetically build mine.

 

Ultimately, I think this argument where we over-focus on things like completion percentage/YPA (and implying that is somehow "more core" to the position) really falls apart when we look at the success Cam has had, some "conventionally" sound QBs, and compare the two. I don't think it shakes out in their favor. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, joshua18 said:

 

Not true. Many were propping up the false narrative that he was inferior to Archie Manning and was only good because of his supporting cast. 

 

You are trying too hard to prove me wrong..."he was not over-rated 35-40 years ago" = not considered the best of his time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

Name a HOF skill position player in his prime that Marino played with. Marino did a ton with virtually nothing around him. Imagine what he would have done with prime Gates and prime Tomlinson to work with. 

 

Rivers cant hold Marino's jockstrap...as we've seen the past 2 years, he can't even lead his team to victory more than Kaepernick. 

 

No one said Rivers = Marino.  But Rivers is a lot closer to Marino than to Kaep.   

He has a lot to do with Gates and LT being who they are.    

 

Marino played with 3 pro bowl WRs Clayton, Duper, and Irving Friar.   Rivers had only V Jax to work with.   

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Impreza178 said:

 

No one said Rivers = Marino.  But Rivers is a lot closer to Marino than to Kaep.   

He has a lot to do with Gates and LT being who they are.    

 

Marino played with 3 pro bowl WRs Clayton, Duper, and Irving Friar.   Rivers had only V Jax to work with.   

 

 

 

Rivers also had Keenan Allen. Interesting you leave out his HOF RB and TE that he could never even take to a SB. Marino at least made one in a much more difficult era for QBs. 

 

The MIA WRs did nothing without Marino. VJax was still very good after leaving SD, and Tomlinson/Gates were All-Pros while Rivers was at NC State. 

 

 

Edited by joshua18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

Rivers also had Keenan Allen. Interesting you leave out his HOF RB and TE that he could never even take to a SB. Marino at least made one in a much more difficult era for QBs. 

 

The MIA WRs did nothing without Marino. VJax was still very good after leaving SD, and Tomlinson/Gates were All-Pros while Rivers was at NC State. 

 

 

Keenan Allen...really?   lol

Let's just call it a handful of talented role players for each.  But stiff competition for both. 

Marino had to deal with Montana/Aikman/Elway/Bradshaw

Rivers had to deal with Big Ben/Manning/Brady/Tebow

 

But sadly neither had a top 10 defense...which is the overriding theme of championship teams

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, joshua18 said:

 

Name a HOF skill position player in his prime that Marino played with. Marino did a ton with virtually nothing around him. Imagine what he would have done with prime Gates and prime Tomlinson to work with. 

 

Rivers cant hold Marino's jockstrap...as we've seen the past 2 years, he can't even lead his team to victory more than Kaepernick. 

Oh really? Last 2 years? Can you skew your "facts" any more? You're high. LT okay, give you that, but Gates definitely benefited from Rivers forming a bromance with him, as did VJ (overrated). Rivers>Marino>Krapernick

 

Also if we use muttonwasmyfavorite's QB stat axle Rivers compares very favorably with Marino, while Kaep comps out nicely Big Bird.

Edited by pikerbkb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, pikerbkb said:

Rivers>Marino

I think joshua is DRASTICALLY understating Rivers' performance, but the quote above is about 50 times worse.  Marino is one of the best QBs to ever play the game.  Rivers is just a good QB. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Impreza178 said:

Keenan Allen...really?   lol

Let's just call it a handful of talented role players for each.  But stiff competition for both. 

Marino had to deal with Montana/Aikman/Elway/Bradshaw

Rivers had to deal with Big Ben/Manning/Brady/Tebow

 

But sadly neither had a top 10 defense...which is the overriding theme of championship teams

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not true. SD had the #1 defense in 2006 and 2010. Rivers couldn't even get them to the playoffs in 2010, and we know what happened in the 06 playoffs. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jbshaw said:

I think joshua is DRASTICALLY understating Rivers performance, but the quote above is about 50 times worse.  Marino is one of the best QBs to ever play the game.  Rivers is just a good QB. 

 

Completely agree, although Rivers is often treated as a great QB, which he isn't. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

Not true. SD had the #1 defense in 2006 and 2010. Rivers couldn't even get them to the playoffs in 2010, and we know what happened in the 06 playoffs. 

 

Fair enough. 

Again though-  ran into greatness like Marino did so often

 

06- Manning 

10- Manning/Brees

 

Marino is definitely> Rivers 

lets not get carried away

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

Completely agree, although Rivers is often treated as a great QB, which he isn't. 

 

 

Rivers > Eli.

 

Fight me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Impreza178 said:

Fair enough. 

Again though-  ran into greatness like Marino did so often

 

06- Manning 

10- Manning/Brees

 

Marino is definitely> Rivers 

lets not get carried away

 

 

No excuse for Rivers not even making the playoffs in 2010 with the #1 defense that season. 

 

2006 was the playoff game they choked away at home to Brady and company. 

 

I know I helped derail this thread by comparing Kaepernick's superior record to Rivers over their last 32 starts, but I'm going to focus more on Kaep for the rest of this thread. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, predator_05 said:

 

Rivers > Eli.

 

Fight me.

 

LOL. One has more TDs, yards, regular season wins, playoff wins, SB titles and SB MVPs despite playing with less talented teams (1 HOF teammate vs 3; Giants were never the #1 defense in the league). That's the better QB. 

 

Back to Kaepernick. 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

LOL. One has more TDs, yards, regular season wins, playoff wins, SB titles and SB MVPs despite playing with less talented teams (1 HOF teammate vs 3; Giants were never the #1 defense in the league). That's the better QB. 

 

Back to Kaepernick. 

 

 

 

 

smh.

 

1. Eli has played 21 games more than Rivers, and although he accumulated more yards, he comfortably trails in yards PER GAME - averaging a rather puny 239.9 ypg vs Rivers' 254.

 

2. Despite playing 21 more games, he has just SIX TDs more than Rivers. Lame.

 

3. Both have an identical win %.

 

4. Eli has thrown a whopping 59 - FIFTY-NINE!!!!!!!!! - more interceptions in his career. This, while having superior OL play, as indicated by a lower sack total.

 

5. Rivers boasts of a QB rating of 94.7, Eli's QB rating is a far inferior 83.7.

 

and last but not least, saving the best for last:

 

6. Eli'S COMPLETION PERCENTAGE ISN'T EVEN TOUCHING 60. Hall of fame, my a**. Here's a list of all time QBs ranked by completion %. Rivers is comfortably top 10, with an excellent completion % of 64.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm

 

Your boy, Mr. Can't-even-complete-60%-of-his-passes, sits in the company of Mark Brunell, Kyle Orton, Ryan Blitzpatrick and hey...speaking of the original subject...Colin Kaepernick!! right there with him, what a coincidence. Together, we shall kneel to protest Eli's hall of fame ticket, because protesting glorification of mediocrity is always a just cause.

 

And before you mention Dan Marino sub-60% rate, he played in a different era. sub-60 for a modern day QB is PITIFUL. It indicates a lack of mental fortitude and a propensity to make mistakes; which are the hall-marks of Eli's interception-filled career, bar the occasional fluke play which you myopic Giants fans insist on remembering.

 

Eli is not better than Rivers, he is in the same tier as Joe Flacco. Accept it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jbshaw said:

I think joshua is DRASTICALLY understating Rivers' performance, but the quote above is about 50 times worse.  Marino is one of the best QBs to ever play the game.  Rivers is just a good QB. 

You actually thought I was serious? I like Rivers but not that much. If I ever run a pyramid scheme I'll just post it in the forum. I'll be rich. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, joshua18 said:

 

LOL. One has more TDs, yards, regular season wins, playoff wins, SB titles and SB MVPs despite playing with less talented teams (1 HOF teammate vs 3; Giants were never the #1 defense in the league). That's the better QB. 

 

Back to Kaepernick. 

 

 

 

Kapernick who? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Talks of Kaep backing up Wilson is really heating up in Seattle. I'st weird to see Kaep backing up Wilson since they were former rivals a few years ago.

 

 

"A person that's dedicating their life to creating change, why wouldn't you want that type of leadership in your locker room? Why wouldn't you want to give (a chance to) a person that's dealt with people calling him wanting to kill him because of his choices in life? I don't know why people feel like that is a problem," Bennett said.

"I think Kaepernick getting an opportunity to be on our team would be really cool, really a good base for him because you have a coach like Coach (Pete) Carroll who's up for challenges like that, you have an owner who ... gives back to homeless, you've got players on your team that give back in the community, you've got Russell Wilson, who shows our team is built around community. So this is a perfect place for him."

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000809225/article/bennett-seattle-would-be-perfect-for-kaepernick?campaign=Ext_Email_1st10_20170517&cvosrc=Ext_Email.Epsilon.1st10_20170517

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TX Babe Ruth said:

Talks of Kaep backing up Wilson is really heating up in Seattle. I'st weird to see Kaep backing up Wilson since they were former rivals a few years ago.

 

 

"A person that's dedicating their life to creating change, why wouldn't you want that type of leadership in your locker room? Why wouldn't you want to give (a chance to) a person that's dealt with people calling him wanting to kill him because of his choices in life? I don't know why people feel like that is a problem," Bennett said.

"I think Kaepernick getting an opportunity to be on our team would be really cool, really a good base for him because you have a coach like Coach (Pete) Carroll who's up for challenges like that, you have an owner who ... gives back to homeless, you've got players on your team that give back in the community, you've got Russell Wilson, who shows our team is built around community. So this is a perfect place for him."

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000809225/article/bennett-seattle-would-be-perfect-for-kaepernick?campaign=Ext_Email_1st10_20170517&cvosrc=Ext_Email.Epsilon.1st10_20170517

 

Yeah, but what does this have to do with Philip Rivers? :-P

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this