Sign in to follow this  
My Dinner With Andre

CTE could end the game of Football as we know it

Recommended Posts

It is impossible to throw legal blame on the NFL for one suffering from CTE, one would need a controlled test that does not exist.

Did playing in the NFL contribute? ...of course. Does the NFL have a responsibility to care for the future well-being of former players? ...well, that's a moral/ethical question that it will continually have to address.

I think any institution, when faced with medical evidence that has been verified, that working conditions contribute to a health detriment have an obligation to report that finding to their employees.

Wouldn't you agree?

I do not remember the NFL ever tellling its players it was safe to take the field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would the players be happy with a 3-strike Concussion You're Out Health Rule?

Imagine OBJ getting ready to cash-in on his next contract, then he gets tagged with his 2nd concussion.

What say you-??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is impossible to throw legal blame on the NFL for one suffering from CTE, one would need a controlled test that does not exist.

Did playing in the NFL contribute? ...of course. Does the NFL have a responsibility to care for the future well-being of former players? ...well, that's a moral/ethical question that it will continually have to address.

I think any institution, when faced with medical evidence that has been verified, that working conditions contribute to a health detriment have an obligation to report that finding to their employees.

Wouldn't you agree?

I do not remember the NFL ever tellling its players it was safe to take the field.

So employers are only obligated to report potential health concerns if they were otherwise considered safe?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is impossible to throw legal blame on the NFL for one suffering from CTE, one would need a controlled test that does not exist.

Did playing in the NFL contribute? ...of course. Does the NFL have a responsibility to care for the future well-being of former players? ...well, that's a moral/ethical question that it will continually have to address.

I think any institution, when faced with medical evidence that has been verified, that working conditions contribute to a health detriment have an obligation to report that finding to their employees.

Wouldn't you agree?

I do not remember the NFL ever tellling its players it was safe to take the field.
So employers are only obligated to report potential health concerns if they were otherwise considered safe?

They are obligated to provide an environment that is as safe as possible, which in my opinion the NFL does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would the players be happy with a 3-strike Concussion You're Out Health Rule?

Imagine OBJ getting ready to cash-in on his next contract, then he gets tagged with his 2nd concussion.

What say you-??

My guess is that the Players' Union would strike against the motion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is impossible to throw legal blame on the NFL for one suffering from CTE, one would need a controlled test that does not exist.

Did playing in the NFL contribute? ...of course. Does the NFL have a responsibility to care for the future well-being of former players? ...well, that's a moral/ethical question that it will continually have to address.

I think any institution, when faced with medical evidence that has been verified, that working conditions contribute to a health detriment have an obligation to report that finding to their employees.

Wouldn't you agree?

I do not remember the NFL ever tellling its players it was safe to take the field.

So employers are only obligated to report potential health concerns if they were otherwise considered safe?

They are obligated to provide an environment that is as safe as possible, which in my opinion the NFL does.

Well, I think it's fairly obvious to most everybody that in this instance, they didn't. They had an obligation to report Dr. Omalu's findings instead of trying to discredit them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is impossible to throw legal blame on the NFL for one suffering from CTE, one would need a controlled test that does not exist.

Did playing in the NFL contribute? ...of course. Does the NFL have a responsibility to care for the future well-being of former players? ...well, that's a moral/ethical question that it will continually have to address.

I think any institution, when faced with medical evidence that has been verified, that working conditions contribute to a health detriment have an obligation to report that finding to their employees.

Wouldn't you agree?

I do not remember the NFL ever tellling its players it was safe to take the field.

So employers are only obligated to report potential health concerns if they were otherwise considered safe?

They are obligated to provide an environment that is as safe as possible, which in my opinion the NFL does.

Well, I think it's fairly obvious to most everybody that in this instance, they didn't. They had an obligation to report Dr. Omalu's findings instead of trying to discredit them.

Are you 100% familiar with the methodology of Dr. Omalu's study? Have you scrutinized the published paper? I haven't, therefore have no comment on whether or not the NFL's efforts were warranted...nor will I let a movie sway me to conspiracy. But if the study cannot show a specific threshold of stress that needs to be crossed in order for CTE to start showing, then Dr. Omalu cannot point his finger at the NFL alone. You say "impossible to show"-? I agree, it's been what I've been saying all along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would the players be happy with a 3-strike Concussion You're Out Health Rule?

Imagine OBJ getting ready to cash-in on his next contract, then he gets tagged with his 2nd concussion.

What say you-??

That's a really great question. But if the NFL was truly concerned about the well being of it's enployees they'd institute a rule like that one.

But as you said, the NLFPA would probably be against it which really calls their bluff as well.

Great question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you 100% familiar with the methodology of Dr. Omalu's study? Have you scrutinized the published paper?

Yes, I am. Yes, I have. I am very familiar with that journal and what it takes to go through the peer-review process.

The problem was never with Omalu's paper -- the only problem is that his findings weren't what the NFL (or you, apparently) wanted to hear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another question...

Because the medical data that suggests CTE is triggered in one who has received multiple concussions, maybe even as little as one major concussion - Should the NFL prevent ALL collegiate prospects who have had more than one documented concussion from entering the NFL, in order to protect their future health?

This is another great question.

After thinking about it I lean towards saying that the NFL should require a waiver saying they are not liable for any future brain related injuries for such players.

Probably could apply to the 3 strikes and your out candidates as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a question...

exhibit A is Borland, who retired after his 1st year because of the "newly learned" risks.

exhibit B is Welker, who has continued to play against the advice of doctors because of multiple concussions, even though he is privy to the same information as A.

Q: Should the NFL cover the future medical care of B should he be troubled by the onset of CTE?

Make Welker sign a waiver that does not allow him funds for future care related to CTE. It's pretty insane that he's playing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you 100% familiar with the methodology of Dr. Omalu's study? Have you scrutinized the published paper?

Yes, I am. Yes, I have. I am very familiar with that journal and what it takes to go through the peer-review process.

The problem was never with Omalu's paper -- the only problem is that his findings weren't what the NFL (or you, apparently) wanted to hear.

So the paper expressed a specific threshold of brain trauma that a player must endure in order to bring about CTE - can you share this with us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another question...

Because the medical data that suggests CTE is triggered in one who has received multiple concussions, maybe even as little as one major concussion - Should the NFL prevent ALL collegiate prospects who have had more than one documented concussion from entering the NFL, in order to protect their future health?

This is another great question.

After thinking about it I lean towards saying that the NFL should require a waiver saying they are not liable for any future brain related injuries for such players.

Probably could apply to the 3 strikes and your out candidates as well.

Failed Drug tests in college carry over as a 1st strike in the NFL...let's be honest, do you want a concussion in college to have an effect on the length of time your team's 1st rd draft pick can actually play for your team? Does that player want it to affect his draft status?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you 100% familiar with the methodology of Dr. Omalu's study? Have you scrutinized the published paper?

Yes, I am. Yes, I have. I am very familiar with that journal and what it takes to go through the peer-review process.

The problem was never with Omalu's paper -- the only problem is that his findings weren't what the NFL (or you, apparently) wanted to hear.

So the paper expressed a specific threshold of brain trauma that a player must endure in order to bring about CTE - can you share this with us?

How is that relevant to what the NFL did with the findings once they had them?

Again, the content isn't the issue here. The issue is what the NFL did with it when they had it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you 100% familiar with the methodology of Dr. Omalu's study? Have you scrutinized the published paper?

Yes, I am. Yes, I have. I am very familiar with that journal and what it takes to go through the peer-review process.

The problem was never with Omalu's paper -- the only problem is that his findings weren't what the NFL (or you, apparently) wanted to hear.

So the paper expressed a specific threshold of brain trauma that a player must endure in order to bring about CTE - can you share this with us?
How is that relevant to what the NFL did with the findings once they had them?

Again, the content isn't the issue here. The issue is what the NFL did with it when they had it.

Josh can, since he is familiar with medical journals, he can explain how often/frequently a paper will be discredited/refuted by another study if a doctor, school or organization does not agree with its methods or conclusions. It is std. modus operandi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the real issue is...

How many concussions should force mandatory retirement from this dangerous sport, run by the Evil Empire?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a question...

exhibit A is Borland, who retired after his 1st year because of the "newly learned" risks.

exhibit B is Welker, who has continued to play against the advice of doctors because of multiple concussions, even though he is privy to the same information as A.

Q: Should the NFL cover the future medical care of B should he be troubled by the onset of CTE?

Now we're getting to the nuts and bolts.... Great questions Psy.

I would think a "3 strikes and you're out" rule would encourage underhanded tactics. "OBJ has a neck injury. Or a sinus injury." You would have to really ferret out the truth sometimes. We can't even get a decent injury report from many teams.

Here's an idea: Once a team finalizes their roster and practice squad before the season- every player gets a thorough concussion risk eval. If you score below a certain threshold, you're required to sign off your future rights of medical care. Maybe even attend a league seminar on brain trauma.

Welker now has to decide if the money is worth the loss of coverage, and the NFL has clearly presented the gravity of that decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you 100% familiar with the methodology of Dr. Omalu's study? Have you scrutinized the published paper?

Yes, I am. Yes, I have. I am very familiar with that journal and what it takes to go through the peer-review process.

The problem was never with Omalu's paper -- the only problem is that his findings weren't what the NFL (or you, apparently) wanted to hear.

So the paper expressed a specific threshold of brain trauma that a player must endure in order to bring about CTE - can you share this with us?

How is that relevant to what the NFL did with the findings once they had them?

Again, the content isn't the issue here. The issue is what the NFL did with it when they had it.

Josh can, since he is familiar with medical journals, he can explain how often/frequently a paper will be discredited/refuted by another study if a doctor, school or organization does not agree with its methods or conclusions. It is std. modus operandi.

Read and understand.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-doctor-the-nfl-tried-to-silence-1448399061

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh can, since he is familiar with medical journals, he can explain how often/frequently a paper will be discredited/refuted by another study if a doctor, school or organization does not agree with its methods or conclusions. It is std. modus operandi.

Its not frequent at all...this is the point of the peer-review process. Usually 2-3 doctors review a submitted paper and provide suggestions for change; once those suggestions are met, the paper is accepted. The vast majority of papers submitted (>85%) are not accepted for publication.

The issue with Omalu's original publication wasn't the quality of the study -- it passed the peer-review process even though Neurosurgery made him go through 18 (!!) different reviewing doctors (remember that more than 95% of accepted papers are reviewed by fewer than 5 doctors). The issue was that once the paper was accepted, people started to pick up on the implications, and the NFL tried to strong-arm Omalu into recanting the paper.

Once Omalu refused to recant -- his original study involved 2 patients with CTE -- he became blacklisted by Neurosurgery (which was at the time a shill for the NFL because its editor-in-chief, Dr. Michael Apuzzo was in the NFL's pocket) and many other journals because the scientific community realized that once you have 3 patients published in the peer-reviewed literature with a particular condition, that condition can no longer be ignored as simply chance; his next publication would have surpassed this threshold which the NFL desperately didn't want to happen. This is why Omalu had to spend years trying to get published elsewhere in lesser known journals.

Fortunately once light was shed on this shady behavior, Apuzzo was fired and Omalu's work was no longer blacklisted, able to be judged purely on its merit. After that, it was published everywhere -- the NFL's worst nightmare, because now everyone KNOWS that CTE is real in the NFL.

BTW, while the NFL was blacklisting Omalu, they were publishing their own bogus studies that newer helmets produced by Riddell prevented long-term brain injury -- this was later found to be totally false and the primary person responsible for these bogus studies (Dr. Joseph Maroon -- who was being paid by Riddell while writing these articles) was discredited as well -- he happened to be the treating physician for some of the NFL players who initially died after CTE.

There is a lot more to this than I'm telling, but I hope that people will at least get some sense of the corruption and cover up the NFL actively engaged in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh can, since he is familiar with medical journals, he can explain how often/frequently a paper will be discredited/refuted by another study if a doctor, school or organization does not agree with its methods or conclusions. It is std. modus operandi.

Its not frequent at all...this is the point of the peer-review process. Usually 2-3 doctors review a submitted paper and provide suggestions for change; once those suggestions are met, the paper is accepted. The vast majority of papers submitted (>85%) are not accepted for publication.

The issue with Omalu's original publication wasn't the quality of the study -- it passed the peer-review process even though Neurosurgery made him go through 18 (!!) different reviewing doctors (remember that more than 95% of accepted papers are reviewed by fewer than 5 doctors). The issue was that once the paper was accepted, people started to pick up on the implications, and the NFL tried to strong-arm Omalu into recanting the paper.

Once Omalu refused to recant -- his original study involved 2 patients with CTE -- he became blacklisted by Neurosurgery (which was at the time a shill for the NFL because its editor-in-chief, Dr. Michael Apuzzo was in the NFL's pocket) and many other journals because the scientific community realized that once you have 3 patients published in the peer-reviewed literature with a particular condition, that condition can no longer be ignored as simply chance; his next publication would have surpassed this threshold which the NFL desperately didn't want to happen. This is why Omalu had to spend years trying to get published elsewhere in lesser known journals.

Fortunately once light was shed on this shady behavior, Apuzzo was fired and Omalu's work was no longer blacklisted, able to be judged purely on its merit. After that, it was published everywhere -- the NFL's worst nightmare, because now everyone KNOWS that CTE is real in the NFL.

BTW, while the NFL was blacklisting Omalu, they were publishing their own bogus studies that newer helmets produced by Riddell prevented long-term brain injury -- this was later found to be totally false and the primary person responsible for these bogus studies (Dr. Joseph Maroon -- who was being paid by Riddell while writing these articles) was discredited as well -- he happened to be the treating physician for some of the NFL players who initially died after CTE.

There is a lot more to this than I'm telling, but I hope that people will at least get some sense of the corruption and cover up the NFL actively engaged in.

Pretty clear what was going on- thanks Josh. I think we can put that issue to bed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh can, since he is familiar with medical journals, he can explain how often/frequently a paper will be discredited/refuted by another study if a doctor, school or organization does not agree with its methods or conclusions. It is std. modus operandi.

Its not frequent at all...this is the point of the peer-review process. Usually 2-3 doctors review a submitted paper and provide suggestions for change; once those suggestions are met, the paper is accepted. The vast majority of papers submitted (>85%) are not accepted for publication.

The issue with Omalu's original publication wasn't the quality of the study -- it passed the peer-review process even though Neurosurgery made him go through 18 (!!) different reviewing doctors (remember that more than 95% of accepted papers are reviewed by fewer than 5 doctors). The issue was that once the paper was accepted, people started to pick up on the implications, and the NFL tried to strong-arm Omalu into recanting the paper.

Once Omalu refused to recant -- his original study involved 2 patients with CTE -- he became blacklisted by Neurosurgery (which was at the time a shill for the NFL because its editor-in-chief, Dr. Michael Apuzzo was in the NFL's pocket) and many other journals because the scientific community realized that once you have 3 patients published in the peer-reviewed literature with a particular condition, that condition can no longer be ignored as simply chance; his next publication would have surpassed this threshold which the NFL desperately didn't want to happen. This is why Omalu had to spend years trying to get published elsewhere in lesser known journals.

Fortunately once light was shed on this shady behavior, Apuzzo was fired and Omalu's work was no longer blacklisted, able to be judged purely on its merit. After that, it was published everywhere -- the NFL's worst nightmare, because now everyone KNOWS that CTE is real in the NFL.

BTW, while the NFL was blacklisting Omalu, they were publishing their own bogus studies that newer helmets produced by Riddell prevented long-term brain injury -- this was later found to be totally false and the primary person responsible for these bogus studies (Dr. Joseph Maroon -- who was being paid by Riddell while writing these articles) was discredited as well -- he happened to be the treating physician for some of the NFL players who initially died after CTE.

There is a lot more to this than I'm telling, but I hope that people will at least get some sense of the corruption and cover up the NFL actively engaged in.

Josh,

How was Omalu able to discount the other contributing/confounding variables to get to his Brain + Football = CTE finding?

R,

Psy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many concussions do pro athletes get to endure before they are locked out, Josh & Faulk?

Give your #

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many concussions do pro athletes get to endure before they are locked out, Josh & Faulk?

Give your #

How many cigarettes can you smoke before you're locked out of smoking tobacco?

How many times can you tear your knee before you're locked out of skiing?

How many bipasses can you have before you're locked out of ordering Big Macs?

What's important is not that you're "locked out" IMO. What's important is that you are allowed access to unfettered information about the specific consequences to your health. What you do from there is your choice.

But if you're not allowing the sum total of the information to be released to the end user, you're not really giving them the choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now with the benefit of taking a neurophysiology & neuropsychology class in undergrad (Go IU)...I did notice that it is near impossible to show causal pathology without a controlled twin-study, which in itself is near impossible. Which is why many studies go back n forth when it comes to the enigma of the brain & its functions.

The general media isn't necessarily aware of this and will run with anything they come across that will catch an ear.

For nobody else but Josh;

You said he had 2 subjects in his original paper...one being Mike Webster, yes/no? Did he acknowledge Webster's family history of depression/Alzheimer's/suicide, along with his known steroid & alcohol abuse? ...and if so, did he just consider the other subject his "control"-?

Again, I have read Omalu's method/conclusions, you have, please share his exact conclusion...how straight of a line did he paint his findings?

Edited by psygolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are the abstracts for the initial Omalu publications in Neurosurgery (2 NFL players). Keep in mind that these papers started the NFL backlash against Omalu both personally and professionally. Feel free to look at the methods and conclusions and judge for yourself.

Neurosurgery. 2005 Jul;57(1):128-34; discussion 128-34.
Chronic traumatic encephalopathy in a National Football League player.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

We present the results of the autopsy of a retired professional football player that revealed neuropathological changes consistent with long-term repetitive concussive brain injury. This case draws attention to the need for further studies in the cohort of retired National Football League players to elucidate the neuropathological sequelae of repeated mild traumatic brain injury in professional football.

METHODS:

The patient's premortem medical history included symptoms of cognitive impairment, a mood disorder, and parkinsonian symptoms. There was no family history of Alzheimer's disease or any other head trauma outside football. A complete autopsy with a comprehensive neuropathological examination was performed on the retired National Football League player approximately 12 years after retirement. He died suddenly as a result of coronary atherosclerotic disease. Studies included determination of apolipoprotein E genotype.

RESULTS:

Autopsy confirmed the presence of coronary atherosclerotic disease with dilated cardiomyopathy. The brain demonstrated no cortical atrophy, cortical contusion, hemorrhage, or infarcts. The substantia nigra revealed mild pallor with mild dropout of pigmented neurons. There was mild neuronal dropout in the frontal, parietal, and temporal neocortex. Chronic traumatic encephalopathy was evident with many diffuse amyloid plaques as well as sparse neurofibrillary tangles and tau-positive neuritic threads in neocortical areas. There were no neurofibrillary tangles or neuropil threads in the hippocampus or entorhinal cortex. Lewy bodies were absent. The apolipoprotein E genotype was E3/E3.

CONCLUSION:

This case highlights potential long-term neurodegenerative outcomes in retired professional National Football League players subjected to repeated mild traumatic brain injury. The prevalence and pathoetiological mechanisms of these possible adverse long-term outcomes and their relation to duration of years of playing football have not been sufficiently studied. We recommend comprehensive clinical and forensic approaches to understand and further elucidate this emergent professional sport hazard.

Neurosurgery. 2006 Nov;59(5):1086-92; discussion 1092-3.
Chronic traumatic encephalopathy in a national football league player: part II.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

We present the second reported case of autopsy-confirmed chronic traumatic encephalopathy in a retired professional football player, with neuropathological features that differ from those of the first reported case. These differing pathological features underscore the need for further empirical elucidation of the pathoetiology and pathological cascades of long-term neurodegenerative sequelae of professional football.

METHODS:

A psychological autopsy was performed with the next-of-kin and wife. Medical and hospital records were reviewed. A complete autopsy was accompanied by a comprehensive forensic neuropathological examination. Restriction fragment length polymorphism analysis was performed to determine apolipoprotein-E genotype.

RESULTS:

Pertinent premortem history included a 14-year span of play in organized football starting from the age of 18 years. The subject was diagnosed with severe major depressive disorder without psychotic features after retirement, attempted suicide multiple times and finally committed suicide 12 years after retirement by ingestion of ethylene glycol. Autopsy revealed cardiomegaly, mild to moderate coronary artery disease, and evidence of acute ethylene glycol overdose. The brain showed no atrophy, a cavum septi pellucidi was present, and the substantia nigra showed mild pallor. The hippocampus and cerebellum were not atrophic. Amyloid plaques, cerebral amyloid angiopathy, and Lewy bodies were completely absent. Sparse to frequent tau-positive neurofibrillary tangles and neuropil threads were present in all regions of the brain. Tufted and thorn astrocytes, as well as astrocytic plaques, were absent. The apolipoprotein-E genotype was E3/E4.

CONCLUSION:

Our first and second cases both had long careers without multiple recorded concussions. Both manifested Major Depressive Disorder after retirement. Amyloid plaques were present in the first case and completely absent in the second case. Both cases exhibited neurofibrillary tangles, neuropil threads, and coronary atherosclerotic disease. Apolipoprotein-E4 genotypes were different. Reasons for the contrasting features in these two cases are not clear. Further studies are needed to identify and define the neuropathological cascades of chronic traumatic encephalopathy in football players, which may form the basis for prophylaxis and therapeutics.

PMID: 17143242 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.