Gauthmann44

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. - 3B TOR

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And with that, Vlad Jr Watch 2018 comes to a conclusion. See you in April my big beautiful man child.

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How depressing. The kid deserved to be called up weeks ago with his other young counterparts who got the call, deservedly. 

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I am very suspicious of this, I feel the organization just made this up secretly just so there is no more buzz about calling him up. Laugh at me but think about it.

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1 hour ago, DJSatane said:

I am very suspicious of this, I feel the organization just made this up secretly just so there is no more buzz about calling him up. Laugh at me but think about it.

Well there is one major flaw with your conspiracy theory- there is a 0% chance Vlad or Vlad’s agent would ever go along with this. 

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And Vlad is going along with this conspiracy? Maybe they kidnapped his dad to keep him from talking. Think about it 

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Blue Jays management's prayers were answered, they didn't want to promote him this year see you in the last week of April 2019

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6 hours ago, meh2 said:

Well there is one major flaw with your conspiracy theory- there is a 0% chance Vlad or Vlad’s agent would ever go along with this. 

 

Again I'm gonna ask, has there ever been a precedent where a minor leaguer/agent/the PA went toe-to-toe with a team over a injury/service time/arbitration time decisions etc?  Not saying that's the case with Vlad I'm just having a hard time remembering a precedent in professional baseball, especially compared to other sports.  Could be wrong, just can't think of one.

Edited by Baur10

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This thread has gone fully into tinfoil hat territory.

17 minutes ago, Baur10 said:

 

Again I'm gonna ask, has there ever been a precedent where a minor leaguer/agent/the PA went toe-to-toe with a team over a injury/service time/arbitration time decisions etc?  Not saying that's the case with Vlad I'm just having a hard time remembering a precedent in professional baseball, especially compared to other sports.  Could be wrong, just can't think of one.

There are two issues here.

 

First of all, I don't see how a player is ever going to go along with a "phantom DL" stint unless it somehow benefits them. When we see it at the MLB level, it's going on with guys who can use breaks to cover for injury histories. E.g., your Rich Hill's of the world. Would Vlad benefit from this?

 

Second, as many "phantom DL" stints as there are, these reports are still checked and reviewed by medical professionals at multiple levels. Given Vlad's elevated status, there's next to zero chance that any DL stints involving him aren't being double and triple checked for shenanigans.

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1 minute ago, Philoumenos said:

This thread has gone fully into tinfoil hat territory.

There are two issues here.

 

First of all, I don't see how a player is ever going to go along with a "phantom DL" stint unless it somehow benefits them. When we see it at the MLB level, it's going on with guys who can use breaks to cover for injury histories. E.g., your Rich Hill's of the world. Would Vlad benefit from this?

 

Second, as many "phantom DL" stints as there are, these reports are still checked and reviewed by medical professionals at multiple levels. Given Vlad's elevated status, there's next to zero chance that any DL stints involving him aren't being double and triple checked for shenanigans.

 

Look I get the argument, but again I'm asking for precedent here. In a league where there is consistent manipulation of the service clock of minor leaguers (wisely) can you guys even think of 1 instance where somebody cried foul? It just seems like a systemic thing in the MLB.  Again if there is an example I'm not thinking of I'm happy to hear it.

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What a freaking disaster it would be for an organization if it got out that they were using false medical diagnoses to manipulate player contracts.There is no precedent because it would be insane and get them sued and nobody would sign there and people would probably go to jail and lose their medical licenses.

 

Also, players have gotten second opinions outside of the team doctors and even disagreed on treatment options before. If Vlad feels fine and TOR doctors tell him he's hurt, there's no way he doesn't go to his own doctor and try to have their diagnosis verified.

Edited by Hanghow
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10 minutes ago, Hanghow said:

What a freaking disaster it would be for an organization if it got out that they were using false medical diagnoses to manipulate player contracts.There is no precedent because it would be insane and get them sued and nobody would sign there and people would probably go to jail and lose their medical licenses.

 

I'm sure he has a legitimate injury.  An the team is smart to be cautious with their prized prospect.  But them taking the absolute longest time possible to for him recover with prolonged rehab and AA and AAA stints, even if it isn't medically necessary, is clearly beneficial to the team.  It's the basis of the AJ McCarron RFA vs UFA debate this past off season.  It went to court and an arbitrator determined that the Bengals stashed him on the NFI/PUP list longer than necessary and granted him UFA status. 

 

In other leagues court cases occur, player associations get involved and issues like that get sorted out.  I can't think of a single example even being brought up in the MLB though, the league where service time manipulation seems most pervasive. It just seems accepted as part of the culture.  Regardless of if that's the case for Vlad or not it just kinda bums me out.

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3 hours ago, Baur10 said:

 

Look I get the argument, but again I'm asking for precedent here. In a league where there is consistent manipulation of the service clock of minor leaguers (wisely) can you guys even think of 1 instance where somebody cried foul? It just seems like a systemic thing in the MLB.  Again if there is an example I'm not thinking of I'm happy to hear it.

I can't think of a case, because I think we've entered tinfoil hat conspiracy land of things that don't really happen.

 

So I'm not really sure what we're supposed to be discussing with you asking for a "precedent" for something that would be outrageous, burn basically every possible bridge with an athlete/agent as well as future talent and probably be illegal.

 

Service time manipulation sucks, but I also don't see any basis for claiming that the Jays are the kind of organization that makes up medical data to get out of paying a player. This isn't the Mets and the Wilpons, or some other dumbass org.

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5 hours ago, Philoumenos said:

I can't think of a case, because I think we've entered tinfoil hat conspiracy land of things that don't really happen.

 

So I'm not really sure what we're supposed to be discussing with you asking for a "precedent" for something that would be outrageous, burn basically every possible bridge with an athlete/agent as well as future talent and probably be illegal.

 

Service time manipulation sucks, but I also don't see any basis for claiming that the Jays are the kind of organization that makes up medical data to get out of paying a player. This isn't the Mets and the Wilpons, or some other dumbass org.

I think he’s more referring to a player/agent simply calling out the org for holding them down for purely monetary reasons, not faking a DL stint. Bryant is the only one I can remember, and it was more of just bitching than anything substantial that would benefit the player/s from a legal standpoint. 

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6 hours ago, Philoumenos said:

I can't think of a case, because I think we've entered tinfoil hat conspiracy land of things that don't really happen.

 

So I'm not really sure what we're supposed to be discussing with you asking for a "precedent" for something that would be outrageous, burn basically every possible bridge with an athlete/agent as well as future talent and probably be illegal.

 

Service time manipulation sucks, but I also don't see any basis for claiming that the Jays are the kind of organization that makes up medical data to get out of paying a player. This isn't the Mets and the Wilpons, or some other dumbass org.

 

 I never said they're faking an injury completely.  I'm commenting on the fact that there's no way for us to tell if his  long slower recovery trajectory will be medically necessary or just an excuse to keep him down. You keep saying tinfoil hat but read my other post to hanghow. A case happened in the NFL, THIS YEAR of a team prolonging an injury designation to manipulate service time. 

 

What's more likely, that stuff just doesn't happen in the MLB? Or service time manipulation is just accepted there? That's why I'm asking for precedent, because it appears to be the latter. 

Edited by phizzics
Unnecessary inflammatory comment removed
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4 minutes ago, Baur10 said:

 

Reading comprehension. I never said they're faking an injury completely.  Im commenting on the fact that there's no way for us to tell if his  long slower recovery trajectory will be medically necessary or just an excuse to keep him down. You keep saying tinfoil hat but read my other post to hanghow. A case happened in the NFL, THIS YEAR of a team prolonging an injury designation to manipulate service time. 

 

What's more likely, that stuff just doesn't happen in the MLB? Or it's just accepted? That's why I'm asking for precedent, because it appears to be the latter. 

 

We aren't even remotely close to this yet... I understand it's an absolute travesty that Vladdy likely won't be able to contribute to your fantasy team this year but let's stop acting like the Jays are ruining this guy's life. There's more to promoting a guy to the bigs than a triple slash over 2 months. Get a grip.

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1 minute ago, smeeze said:

We aren't even remotely close to this yet... I understand it's an absolute travesty that Vladdy likely won't be able to contribute to your fantasy team this year but let's stop acting like the Jays are ruining this guy's life. There's more to promoting a guy to the bigs than a triple slash over 2 months. Get a grip.

 

Strawman argument.  In no post did I ever comment on how they're ruining his life or making a poor managerial decision.  It is ABSOLUTELY the smart move for the Jays to keep him down this year. I'm simply commenting on how service time manipulation seems to be not only common-place but accepted in the MLB, where as in other leagues there seems to be somewhat more player/agent push back against that kind of stuff which is kind of a shame.

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12 minutes ago, Baur10 said:

 

Strawman argument.  In no post did I ever comment on how they're ruining his life or making a poor managerial decision.  It is ABSOLUTELY the smart move for the Jays to keep him down this year. I'm simply commenting on how service time manipulation seems to be not only common-place but accepted in the MLB, where as in other leagues there seems to be somewhat more player/agent push back against that kind of stuff which is kind of a shame.

 

What other leagues even have service time as a consideration? What are you even talking about at this point? You're asking questions with no answers to nobody in particular in a thinly-veiled attempt to trash the Blue Jays organization for something they're not even guilty of. 

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19 minutes ago, smeeze said:

 

What other leagues even have service time as a consideration? What are you even talking about at this point? You're asking questions with no answers to nobody in particular in a thinly-veiled attempt to trash the Blue Jays organization for something they're not even guilty of. 

 

Read a few posts up. Yeah the MLB set up is somewhat unique but the AJ McCarron RFA/UFA situation this year is about as close of an example as there is.  And again I'm not bashing the Jays, they're doing what they should given the situation. It's a league wide thing I'm commenting on. I'm not trashing your favorite team.

Edited by Baur10

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The AJ discussion isn’t necessarily wholly relevant to a Vlad discussion. We have people who seem to believe the injury is a fabrication. A large part of AJ’s complaint was about if they kept him on an injured status too long, but another part was centered on “where” the injury happens. 

 

Regardless, this is all hypothetical and silly. I see no reason to believe the Jays are going to do this, and I see no reason that Vlad would take it lying down if it did. 

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Guys get hurt and he's 19 years old. If they rushed him back, people would have a problem with that, too. Sometimes there's just no pleasing everybody.

Edited by Hanghow

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We don't think its conceivable to have an organization "fake" injury" a single injury with a player? Hell the Padres had an entire second set of books of fake records on multiple players in their system before they got busted.

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Unless some sort of additional evidence comes out suggesting this injury was "faked", let's cease and desist on that line of discussion. Not only is it unproveable, but its is mostly irrelevant to Vlad's outlook.

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I never implied the injury was faked but I'm clearly pissing a few people off it's starting to derail the thread so I'll stop. 

 

Don't even own Vlad in any leagues anymore but this is just a bummer from a baseball POV. Was looking forward to seeing him in Buffalo. Other than the world series there's nothing more exciting than a big name rookie making it up to the show IMO. 

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