Gauthmann44

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. - 3B TOR

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I certainly would like to see him in my lineup but the criticism is not solely based on that - I'm more a baseball fan and just fail to see the logic behind keeping him down....they can't use health as an excuse as he has been playing for some time and is clearly healthy....they can't use service time/$ as they locked in the extra yr....they can't use performance as he is raking....I just fail to see how he is not up and commenting that I'd be pretty ticked if I was a Blue Jay fan....Im stumped and havent seen a good answer for it yet

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29 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Why are they holding him down in your opinion? There is 0 financial benefit in doing so unless you think they are waiting until Super 2, which I do not believe they are. I can't rule it out, but I'd imagine they pushed that envelope enough already. There are lots of players who should be up right now, but aren;'t because of service time manipulation.  I don't think Vlad being up yesterday vs next week has to do with that.

 

I have a feeling they are waiting until April 23, their next home game to bring him up. This isn’t just a rumble around Toronto fans, this promotion is going to electrify the entire MLB so of course I’d wait and do this at home as well. 

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3 minutes ago, ImHighandInside said:

I have a feeling they are waiting until April 23, their next home game to bring him up. This isn’t just a rumble around Toronto fans, this promotion is going to electrify the entire MLB so of course I’d wait and do this at home as well. 

this is logical and makes sense.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, osb_tensor said:

imo, i don't see a valid reason.

his bat is certainly ready, without question. from what i've read, his defense is adequate. maybe not spectacular, but certainly nothing that's going to jeopardize the MLB club, especially considering they're not in contention for a playoff spot. diet/fitness? not sure how that would be related to the minor/major league status. he can eat healthy and exercise just as well with big league club as he can with the minor league team.

why do i think they're holding him down? no idea, if not financial..

This is my point. If there's no reason to keep him down other than waiting until he's 100%, I'm just willing to believe it. For me to think they are doing something malicious, there has to be a motive. Getting a weeks worth of games give or take 2-3 seems perfectly reasonable for a minor leaguer coming off injury.

Edited by brockpapersizer

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13 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

This is my point. If there's no reason to keep him down other than waiting until he's 100%, I'm just willing to believe it. For me to think they are doing something malicious, there has to be a motive. Getting a weeks worth of games give or take 2-3 seems perfectly reasonable for a minor leaguer coming off injury.

perfectly reasonable.

but, they've roughly reached the end of the reasonable time period with seven games in the books now. agreed?

when do you think it's went beyond a reasonable minor league rehab assignment?

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30 minutes ago, osb_tensor said:

perfectly reasonable.

but, they've roughly reached the end of the reasonable time period with seven games in the books now. agreed?

when do you think it's went beyond a reasonable minor league rehab assignment?

I'm not sure. I'm not a doctor. Not saying that sarcastically either. I don't know. He will be up soon, because there's no reason to keep him down otherwise. 

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As a dynasty league owner I’m fine with him staying in the minors another few weeks. Let him get back to where he was in the Arizona fall league where he was obviously the top prospect in baseball. I just want to see him get at bats. At this point idc where he gets them or what level of baseball he plays at. 

 

For everyone wanting him up now, I know the defense excuse feels played out but as fantasy owners we stare at his numbers and that’s it. If the blue jays think it’s a legitimate concern then so be it. They are writing his checks for the next 7 years so I’m fine with whatever decision they make even if he doesn’t get called up in a week (although I personally feel he will). Defense doesn’t mean s--- to us in fantasy so we look past it like it’s no big deal.

 

The point is he needs more playing time right now in the minors, he literally had no spring training. We all know he’s going to hit when he’s called up, but I’d rather see him have a normal routine playing games everyday before being called up. And I’m the biggest Vlad homer that there is. Anyway that’s my opinion.

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perhaps the Jays brass is waiting until JR makes weight

 

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Dude saw 19 terrible spring training AB. 29 AB now in the minors. <50 AB to ramp up after an off season isn't conservative in anyone's book, especially with an injured rookie. I wouldn't have expected him any earlier than this week. I'd love to see him up today, but think it's totally reasonable to do it the 23rd. If the ball starts leaving the yard down there he may force their hand a little early, or not.

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6 hours ago, osb_tensor said:

imo, i don't see a valid reason.

his bat is certainly ready, without question. from what i've read, his defense is adequate. maybe not spectacular, but certainly nothing that's going to jeopardize the MLB club, especially considering they're not in contention for a playoff spot. diet/fitness? not sure how that would be related to the minor/major league status. he can eat healthy and exercise just as well with big league club as he can with the minor league team.

why do i think they're holding him down? no idea, if not financial..

Valid reason?  How about that oblique injuries are notorious for being reinjured?  What about his weight problem?  They are on record saying he has to get it under control, maybe he hasn't hit his goal yet to be able to be moved up?  We aren't there, we have no idea what they use as a benchmark to bring him up.

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On 4/15/2019 at 3:24 PM, Big Tuna said:

I hear you but if I was a fan of the team that wouldnt fly with me.....he could be helping with 6 gmes under .500 vs 8-10 games for no good reason....but then again I dont surrender in April....you add the top prospect in some time it breeds excitement and possibly instant win streak....I just see zero reason to keep him down at this point and so many positives to bring him up....most of all winning. 

I'm a Blue Jays fan and a Vlad fantasy owner, and I have no issue with them waiting until April 22/23 (if that is the target date) to call him up. The Jays are on the road, the Bisons are playing at home this weekend, the Bisons have an off day the 21 (the Jays the 22). So from a logistics standpoint, it just makes sense to call up a few days later. Especially where the Jays aren't expected to be contenders this year. Also had they called him up right on April 13, I'm sure that would have looked really fishy from a legal perspective. So why not just wait to 10 days and make the transition as smooth as possible.

That being said, if he's not up by the start of May (and he's playing the way he is now), then my tone will change a little bit. But until then, just be patient. Should only be a few more days.

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I hope he puts as much pine tar on his helmet as his dad did

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I assume they will wait until super 2 in the summer ( anyone know the date?) and cite him working on defense as the reason. I don’t expect him until then ( June?) as no reason at all for the jays to play him

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I also think the Jays wait til June to bring him up. They will lose with him or without him so why rush his paydays? As for Super 2 dates they vary team to team. rainouts that get rescheduled after the June date will push it back a game for example. Most teams will prolly just use a safe date that assures pushing arbitration back a year. 

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Don't think there is anyway they hold him back until June. Have already said when he is healthy and ready he'll get the call. Barring a setback, I'd expect him to be up anytime within the next 2-3 weeks.

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29 minutes ago, paintingtheblack said:

Don't think there is anyway they hold him back until June. Have already said when he is healthy and ready he'll get the call. Barring a setback, I'd expect him to be up anytime within the next 2-3 weeks.

If they wait that long...might as well wait a few more until super 2. Jays only care about saving money...nothing else

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30 minutes ago, paintingtheblack said:

Don't think there is anyway they hold him back until June. Have already said when he is healthy and ready he'll get the call. Barring a setback, I'd expect him to be up anytime within the next 2-3 weeks.

If he doesn't get his weight under control, with the stance the team has already had with it, he won't be up until it is under where they say it needs to be.  Whether that is next week or July.  They can't make that stance, then back down with a minor league player, even Vlad Jr.  

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1 hour ago, daynlokki said:

If he doesn't get his weight under control, with the stance the team has already had with it, he won't be up until it is under where they say it needs to be.  Whether that is next week or July.  They can't make that stance, then back down with a minor league player, even Vlad Jr.  

I think you are looking into this far to much and thinking this is a legitimate grip or standoff. It is all about service time and capping expenses for a rebuilding team. Weight seems to be the most convenient excuse since they can't use hitting. All of this is about service time at this point and when they want his clock to start....and I don't blame the Jays because it is the smart decision. If it wasn't weight it would be his fielding or base running that he needed to develop. 

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Just my opinion, but I would think part of the motivation to bring him up in a relatively timely manner versus keeping him down until super 2 is what kind of impact will this have on the organization's reputation to sign future international prospects?  I don't think you want a reputation as a club that will keep someone down for an unreasonable amount of time to save money...especially when you have some clubs in the White Sox and Padres who are starting to buck that trend.  In short, they gained an extra year already...too much greed can backfire.  Do the right think Jays...

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2 hours ago, thezing1 said:

I think you are looking into this far to much and thinking this is a legitimate grip or standoff. It is all about service time and capping expenses for a rebuilding team. 

That was certainly a reason to keep him down for the first 2 weeks. Not so much any more IMO.  Some combination of weight,  injury recovery, and wanting some excitement to debut him at home actually makes the most sense to me.

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15 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

That was certainly a reason to keep him down for the first 2 weeks. Not so much any more IMO.  Some combination of weight,  injury recovery, and wanting some excitement to debut him at home actually makes the most sense to me.

I am not getting caught up in the countdown to Vlad's promotion. All I really care about when I check the box scores is if he is healthy. Guessing the exact time of his promotion isn't very interesting to me. The only thing I know is that we don't know everything and usually all it takes is a little patience. Kind of like the watched pot never boils. Healthy vlad will hit and will get promoted like water over a flame will boil. It's just a matter of time. I suppose I should have said it is all finance related instead of service time related. For all we know the Jays might be trying to do an Eloy type of contract and the negotiations might be ugly. Who knows? If they are waiting for the next homestand to promote him that makes perfect sense to me...the Jays should be doing everything in their ability to profit and exploit Vlad. It isn't often you have a generational prospect that you can leverage to sell tickets when you are a terrible team. This tread is almost 80 pages long at this point. Vlad will sell. 

If weight was a serious issue I think they would have addressed it a different way, but who knows because the Jays aren't exactly the best organization at development. I don't think it is something you can really address or get a handle on when you are in the middle of the in-season grind. I also think it is a little overblown. I was concerned about it, but the kid is young and he lives the minor league life and he probably thinks he is invincible because inside of a batter's box he is kind of invincible. You have to let 20 year old kids live and learn. 

 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, thezing1 said:

I am not getting caught up in the countdown to Vlad's promotion. All I really care about when I check the box scores is if he is healthy. Guessing the exact time of his promotion isn't very interesting to me. The only thing I know is that we don't know everything and usually all it takes is a little patience. Kind of like the watched pot never boils. Healthy vlad will hit and will get promoted like water over a flame will boil. It's just a matter of time. I suppose I should have said it is all finance related instead of service time related. For all we know the Jays might be trying to do an Eloy type of contract and the negotiations might be ugly. Who knows? If they are waiting for the next homestand to promote him that makes perfect sense to me...the Jays should be doing everything in their ability to profit and exploit Vlad. It isn't often you have a generational prospect that you can leverage to sell tickets when you are a terrible team. This tread is almost 80 pages long at this point. Vlad will sell. 

 

Pretty sure ticket revenue is shared. There is no financial incentive to keep Vlad down at this point unless they want until super 2, which if he's healthy and kept down that long might trigger legal action.

If he's healthy, I fully expect it to be within week or so. 

Edited by brockpapersizer
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9 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

If he's healthy, I fully expect it to be within week or so. 


Agreed - I'm certain the organization is looking at Vlad's promotion as a special day and plan to do it while on a home stand (hat tip to @ImHighandInside)

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4 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Pretty sure ticket revenue is shared. There is no financial incentive to keep Vlad down at this point unless they want until super 2, which if he's healthy and kept down that long might trigger legal action.

I am pretty sure more people going to Rogers Centre means more concessions sold and more in stadium purchases which means more money for ownership....if the business does not work that way then everyone should be the Marlins. Do I think Vlad sustains ticket sales throughout the season for this trainwreck Jays team...nah. But I am sure they will get a short term surge so why would they not time it and exploit it. 

I thought when I wrote "It is all about service time and capping expenses for a rebuilding team" it was an all encompassing way of addressing Super 2 and whatever line drawn in the sand that MLB uses to hold back young players earning power. I guess that was a mistake on my part. Now this conversation is going to veer into that grey ethical/legal area of ownership holding back young players to limit their earning potential and expand the owner's control. I have interest in that conversation, but not in this thread. I am just going to make this easy and remove myself from this thread. You can have last word if you want it. At this point I actually don't even know your angle or your stance. 

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4 hours ago, thezing1 said:

I think you are looking into this far to much and thinking this is a legitimate grip or standoff. It is all about service time and capping expenses for a rebuilding team. Weight seems to be the most convenient excuse since they can't use hitting. All of this is about service time at this point and when they want his clock to start....and I don't blame the Jays because it is the smart decision. If it wasn't weight it would be his fielding or base running that he needed to develop. 

It's my understanding that a new CBA will be in place before service time will come into play for this year's rookies, and that baseball is wise to that. So Alonso is up, and it would be short sighted for TOR to take it into account. So like Brock I can't see any reasons outside of health and player development that would keep him down. As for Vlad's fitness, if he were to balloon to 310 and kept batting his weight they would shake their heads and call him up.

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