parrothead

The two-way player issue...

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1 hour ago, cs3 said:

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote except for this line that I quoted. They offer Pro Leagues that you pay for, and they take an 8-10% cut on those (one full buyin), so thet are most definitely not free. If they are going to offer pay leagues, they should be doing some things much better imo.

 

This is a fair point.  Still, I've been doing fantasy for decades and I've never known anyone who's bothered with those leagues.  I don't have any inside info as to how popular they are or how much revenue Yahoo brings in with them, but I can't imagine it's enough to move the needle on such a niche issue like how Ohtani is treated -- especially when you factor in the risk of the change causing unintended problems with the platform.  Better to take some time to get it right for 2019 than rush something in over the course of a few months.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Khahan said:

Yahoo as announced they will be adding a Shohei Ohtani/pitcher and a Shohei Ohtani/Hitter.  I believe this is how most of the major outlets will end up handling him.  This leaves leagues with 3 potential options that I see:

 

 

  1. 1. Hitter and player are 2 separate entities and must be drafted and treated separately.   This is easiest to track but honestly I think greatly devalues him.  Part of his allure and value comes in 1 guy delivering pitching and hitting stats. 
  2.  
  3. 2. In the draft hitter and pitcher are 1 person and when you draft one the other gets drafted, losing your last round pick. But once the season starts they are 2 separate entities and can be dropped/traded handled as individual players. This gives him the most value and the manager the most flexibility but seems a bit odd.
  4.  
  5. 3. In the draft hitter and player are 1 person and when you draft one the other gets drafted, losing your last round pick.  Once the season starts, they are still considered 1 person, taking up 2 roster spots. But they must be traded, dropped/added together.  This makes the most sense but has the most possibility of causing problems. Especially in an add/drop situation.  While it improves his draft value it may actually depress his trade value as managers receiving Ohtani need 2 roster spots for him.

 

For keepers I think it makes sense to go along consistently with whichever option you pick above. Options 1 and 2 means he is 1 keeper slot for a hitter and 1 keeper slot for a pitcher.  Option 3 means you keep him with 1 slot as both a hitter and a pitcher.  I know some leagues have rules along the lines of, "must keep x pitchers and y  hitters."  How will those leagues handle Ohtani?

 

He's given the fantasy baseball universe a lot to think about. For now the leagues I commish I am putting the 3 options above up to a vote. Does anybody else have any other insights or suggestions on how to handle Ohtani?

We're in Yahoo and he's going to be one entity for us. When drafted, you get credit for both...we added an extra roster spot. Guy who drafts O uses that for the extra spot. Everyone else is forced to roster a N/A guy so the spot can't be used, essentially a place holder. Owner gets both Os, and can choose what half, or both, to start daily. No penalty on roster spots, no O for O trades. If he gets traded, both go and the new owner simply drops his current N/A guy

Edited by WahooManiac

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1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

 

This is a fair point.  Still, I've been doing fantasy for decades and I've never known anyone who's bothered with those leagues.  I don't have any inside info as to how popular they are or how much revenue Yahoo brings in with them, but I can't imagine it's enough to move the needle on such a niche issue like how Ohtani is treated -- especially when you factor in the risk of the change causing unintended problems with the platform.  Better to take some time to get it right for 2019 than rush something in over the course of a few months.

 

I agree with this although I doubt we see changes in 2019. They won't make changes any time soon unless they plan an unrelated system overhaul where adding the utility feature wouldn't be a significant addition.

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Posted (edited)

Personally I think he should be drafted as one guy taking up one spot and then appear twice on your roster (basically giving his owner an extra slot), once as a hitter and once as a pitcher. Having to draft him twice probably wouldn't be worth the bother for either one. I guess trying to face and prepare for both MLB hitters and pitchers may just cause him to get destroyed by both, in which case it won't matter.

Edited by Fiveohnine

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17 hours ago, WahooManiac said:

We're in Yahoo and he's going to be one entity for us. When drafted, you get credit for both...we added an extra roster spot. Guy who drafts O uses that for the extra spot. Everyone else is forced to roster a N/A guy so the spot can't be used, essentially a place holder. Owner gets both Os, and can choose what half, or both, to start daily. No penalty on roster spots, no O for O trades. If he gets traded, both go and the new owner simply drops his current N/A guy

 

Kudos to your league for doing this. To me (and others have noted this as well), Ohtani is one of the most exciting things going for Fantasy Baseball 2018... maybe a little too exciting based on the 4th round selection in the FSTA... but it sucks that its getting ruined by website design flaws. Your league did well to address this in a creative and thoughtful way.

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3 hours ago, oswald737 said:

 

Kudos to your league for doing this. To me (and others have noted this as well), Ohtani is one of the most exciting things going for Fantasy Baseball 2018... maybe a little too exciting based on the 4th round selection in the FSTA... but it sucks that its getting ruined by website design flaws. Your league did well to address this in a creative and thoughtful way.

Every once in awhile, I have my moments. For any running a custom league its a pretty easy work around. Only thing you'd have to watch for is someone abusing the dead roster holder spot for streaming or something. I trust these guys not to do that, but I suppose it could be handled thru penalty if needed

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Posted (edited)

It sounds like ESPN is going to have him as one guy who can either be started for pitching stats OR hitting stats, but not both. So for interleague play you'd have to choose one or the other (I guess almost always pitching).

 

I suppose that makes the most sense.

Edited by Fiveohnine
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Fiveohnine said:

It sounds like ESPN is going to have him as one guy who can either be started for pitching stats OR hitting stats, but not both. So for interleague play you'd have to choose one or the other (I guess almost always pitching).

 

I suppose that makes the most sense.

This means daily leagues can swap him to either position?  If so, amazing work. Glad to be with ESPN. This is how it should be. 

Edited by AnonymousRob
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3 hours ago, Fiveohnine said:

It sounds like ESPN is going to have him as one guy who can either be started for pitching stats OR hitting stats, but not both. So for interleague play you'd have to choose one or the other (I guess almost always pitching).

 

I suppose that makes the most sense.

 

Is there an announcement somewhere about this?

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23 hours ago, Fiveohnine said:

It sounds like ESPN is going to have him as one guy who can either be started for pitching stats OR hitting stats, but not both. So for interleague play you'd have to choose one or the other (I guess almost always pitching).

 

I suppose that makes the most sense.

To me that sounds like you can start him as a hitter or pitcher on any given day.  I guess we will have to wait and see for sure. 

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20 hours ago, Hollywood42 said:

 

Is there an announcement somewhere about this?

 

I don't think they've made anything official yet. I was listening to an ESPN podcast where they had a developer on and he basically said that no matter what the ultimate mechanics look like, you'll have to choose pitching or hitting on any given day. Specifically saying "just like you can't get a HR when Madison Bumgarner is pitching, you won't be able to get one while Ohtani is in a pitcher slot". Something to that effect.

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To me it seems like they are all solving this the wrong way.

 

Ohtani is one player, just like Madison Bumgarner is one player.

 

I think the game needs to switch to start including all stats any player accumulates.  So if you start Bumgarner and he hits a HR, you get a HR.  And if you start Chris Davis at 1B and he comes in during a blowout and pitches an inning, you get those pitching stats.

 

We got too caught up on positions.  When your 2B playes SS for the day we don't ignore the stats he accumulates, even though he isn't playing the position you have him at.

 

Football solved this a long time ago - when my QB or WR runs the ball, I still get rushing yards.  It's not that complicated.

 

But alas, these systems are archaic and resistant to change (not pointed at any one provider, this is an issue with the game itself being too stuck in the mud).

 

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1 hour ago, kenag122002 said:

To me it seems like they are all solving this the wrong way.

 

Ohtani is one player, just like Madison Bumgarner is one player.

 

I think the game needs to switch to start including all stats any player accumulates.  So if you start Bumgarner and he hits a HR, you get a HR.  And if you start Chris Davis at 1B and he comes in during a blowout and pitches an inning, you get those pitching stats.

 

We got too caught up on positions.  When your 2B playes SS for the day we don't ignore the stats he accumulates, even though he isn't playing the position you have him at.

 

Football solved this a long time ago - when my QB or WR runs the ball, I still get rushing yards.  It's not that complicated.

 

But alas, these systems are archaic and resistant to change (not pointed at any one provider, this is an issue with the game itself being too stuck in the mud).

 

 

The problem with this solution is that AL pitchers don't hit while NL pitchers do. So the value of half of the pitchers would be affected by their hitting, while the other half would be almost totally unaffected by it.

 

There doesn't seem to be a solution that is absolutely perfect. But I think I like the idea of choosing pitching or hitting stats the most.

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13 minutes ago, Fiveohnine said:

 

The problem with this solution is that AL pitchers don't hit while NL pitchers do. So the value of half of the pitchers would be affected by their hitting, while the other half would be almost totally unaffected by it.

 

There doesn't seem to be a solution that is absolutely perfect. But I think I like the idea of choosing pitching or hitting stats the most.

Yeah, there are lots of established keeper leagues where this solution would throw off player values all across the board almost overnight. The MadBum owner would be happy but what if you lost a championship game by a couple batting average points while your NL pitchers went 0-20?

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16 minutes ago, Hanghow said:

Yeah, there are lots of established keeper leagues where this solution would throw off player values all across the board almost overnight. The MadBum owner would be happy but what if you lost a championship game by a couple batting average points while your NL pitchers went 0-20?

This was discussed way up thread earlier...essentially it evens out the ratio bonus we all get from owning NL pitching. And as all pitchers, including MadBum, essentially suck hard at hitting, it's even for everyone. I'm all for this, but it could hurt a lot of current keeper leagues the first year it switched. 

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3 hours ago, Fiveohnine said:

 

The problem with this solution is that AL pitchers don't hit while NL pitchers do. So the value of half of the pitchers would be affected by their hitting, while the other half would be almost totally unaffected by it.

 

There doesn't seem to be a solution that is absolutely perfect. But I think I like the idea of choosing pitching or hitting stats the most.

 

Choosing pitching or hitting is clunky, it's not realistic long term.  It is not a clean solution.

 

There's going to be "problems" with any solution, there's no perfect fit.  However it's the solution that actually makes sense.  Yes it affects some player values SLIGHTLY, but it is not biased against an individual.  It will affect all teams, and all teams can adapt to it.  The overall impact is small.

 

I analyzed the final standings in a 15 team mixed.  In a league where total roto scores ranged from ~50 to ~125 individual scores changed by a max of 3 points overall (the top team which won by 12 points would have won by 9 points instead).

 

This is very minimal impact.  The season totals for 14 full time hitters dwarf the ABs for 9 pitchers (some of which are relievers), such that the pitchers hitting stats just don't matter much.

 

Any rule change can affect the standings and someone COULD complain, but this one actually would make sense and simplify.

 

A QB can score a rushing (or even receiving) touchdown.  A pitcher should be able to hit a HR.

Edited by kenag122002
adding details

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I don’t know if this has been mentioned but here’s my question. Let’s say they make an offensive and a pitching Ohtani for the system. A guy drafts as pitcher and another manager drafts as a hitter. What happens in Keeper leagues when the system is fixed to have both on a roster as a single playable option. Who gets to keep Ohtani then?

Edited by JeterPimpedUrGF

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On 1/7/2018 at 8:55 PM, WahooManiac said:

We're in Yahoo and he's going to be one entity for us. When drafted, you get credit for both...we added an extra roster spot. Guy who drafts O uses that for the extra spot. Everyone else is forced to roster a N/A guy so the spot can't be used, essentially a place holder. Owner gets both Os, and can choose what half, or both, to start daily. No penalty on roster spots, no O for O trades. If he gets traded, both go and the new owner simply drops his current N/A guy

Do you guys have DL spots, if so how are you handling if he happens to go on the DL?

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12 hours ago, JeterPimpedUrGF said:

I don’t know if this has been mentioned but here’s my question. Let’s say they make an offensive and a pitching Ohtani for the system. A guy drafts as pitcher and another manager drafts as a hitter. What happens in Keeper leagues when the system is fixed to have both on a roster as a single playable option. Who gets to keep Ohtani then?

I'm anticipating this issue in our keeper league and pushing to let one manager have both. If he hits, the push is only going to move in the direction of making him one player. I'd say otherwise you almost have to say the second person to take him (probably Ohtani the hitter) is taking the risk that they'll be unable to keep him every new season and factor that in to the decision to draft him.

 

17 hours ago, kenag122002 said:

This is very minimal impact.  The season totals for 14 full time hitters dwarf the ABs for 9 pitchers (some of which are relievers), such that the pitchers hitting stats just don't matter much.

I've had a playoff game come down to whether one at-bat resulted in a hit or an out; it might be rare, but it certainly happens. I like the "choose pitcher or hitter" setup best of the options discussed. I hate pitcher AB's in real-life for the most part with like two exceptions; I'm not sure why I should be clamoring for their stats in fantasy.

 

Also, as to the QB's receiving rushing stats, there is a counterpoint. Goalies don't receive skater stats in hockey. They're considered to be different enough from the other positions that it's not worth the trouble to recognize that skillset just because it might exist in one or two players in the league at any time.

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12 hours ago, JeterPimpedUrGF said:

I don’t know if this has been mentioned but here’s my question. Let’s say they make an offensive and a pitching Ohtani for the system. A guy drafts as pitcher and another manager drafts as a hitter. What happens in Keeper leagues when the system is fixed to have both on a roster as a single playable option. Who gets to keep Ohtani then?

In Auction formats, I'd say its the team that paid the most for him, which would most likely be the pitcher. 

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MadBum is not a 2-way player, he is a guy who pitches and can handle the bat OK.  But his lifetime average is under .200 and the most HR he has ever hit in a season is 5, which is like less than 1 a month, his best season also included 9RBI and 9runs scored.  Those numbers are not worth changing the game or format over especially if that is the "best".  Ohtani, by all accounts would be getting at-bats on top of the days he pitches, he might get 400 at bats in a season, he would have the chance to bypass MadBums entire hitting career in one season, pretty easily actually if you look at the counting stats (madbum has 45 runs scored in his entire career and like 55 RBI).  This is a truly unique situation, which is why I started the thread and I think "count all pitchers hitting stats" doesnt seem like the answer. 

 

Nobody wants to figure out how 9 pitchers who might total 5HR and hit like .120 would negatively impact your team.  Comparing it to football is completely different because everything in football is somewhat of a positive, just some more than others.  

 

 

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13 minutes ago, duke of queens said:

Do you guys have DL spots, if so how are you handling if he happens to go on the DL?

Yes we have 3 DL spots. But this is a good question that we honestly didn't think of LOL. I suppose, if he hits the dl, we'd either have to add an additional dl spot (trusting the rest of the league to again not abuse here. Or we could just let the owner dl one Ohtani, and the second Ohtani would remain in the previously added NA dead spot. With the caveat that of course the Oh owner can't abuse an extra roster spot either. 

 

Good question, thx for asking. But I think it still works

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2 minutes ago, WahooManiac said:

Yes we have 3 DL spots. But this is a good question that we honestly didn't think of LOL. I suppose, if he hits the dl, we'd either have to add an additional dl spot (trusting the rest of the league to again not abuse here. Or we could just let the owner dl one Ohtani, and the second Ohtani would remain in the previously added NA dead spot. With the caveat that of course the Oh owner can't abuse an extra roster spot either. 

 

Good question, thx for asking. But I think it still works

Ok cool. Only reason i ask is we are doing the same thing with Ohtani in Yahoo. I think we are just letting the team DL 1 Ohtani, have to police this a little. Other thing i should mention, make sure the dead spot player has no shot of coming up to the majors or is retired etc. You don't want to have the team not be able to pick a player because Yahoo tells him he has an illegal roster since the "NA" is not eligible at that spot anymore due to a call up to the majors. I might just try and find a player that is awful that doesn't have and "NA" designation or "DL" designation as Yahoo has screwed up and made these disappear sometimes for no apparent reason.

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14 minutes ago, parrothead said:

MadBum is not a 2-way player, he is a guy who pitches and can handle the bat OK.  But his lifetime average is under .200 and the most HR he has ever hit in a season is 5, which is like less than 1 a month, his best season also included 9RBI and 9runs scored.  Those numbers are not worth changing the game or format over especially if that is the "best".  Ohtani, by all accounts would be getting at-bats on top of the days he pitches, he might get 400 at bats in a season, he would have the chance to bypass MadBums entire hitting career in one season, pretty easily actually if you look at the counting stats (madbum has 45 runs scored in his entire career and like 55 RBI).  This is a truly unique situation, which is why I started the thread and I think "count all pitchers hitting stats" doesnt seem like the answer. 

 

Nobody wants to figure out how 9 pitchers who might total 5HR and hit like .120 would negatively impact your team.  Comparing it to football is completely different because everything in football is somewhat of a positive, just some more than others.  

 

 

 

You missed the part where it will really affect all teams and in the end it really matters very little at all.  If you are spending your time trying to calculate how a pitcher will impact your avg, you completely whiffed on how small the impact was and you are wasting your time.

 

And no, everything in football is definitely not a positive, not even close.  If Dak Prescott laterals to Zeke Elliott who throws an INT, my RB just got -2 points.  If Antonio Brown catches a pass and then fumbles, he gets -1 point.

 

This is not a hard concept, the game of fantasy is about evaluating players and translating their real-world impact into a game where you pick and choose players you like off different teams.  The fact that pitchers suck at hitting is a real world thing.  No reason it should not be translated over to fantasy.

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3 minutes ago, kenag122002 said:

The fact that pitchers suck at hitting is a real world thing

Yes, which is why at pretty much every level of the sport on the planet other than the National League, they have a Designated Hitter.  But RB's are not forced to throw the ball 4 times a game, its a completely different sport and analogy.  Its like if your Kicker was forced to run the ball 4 times a game and one of your league stats was average yards per attempt, my guess is the kickers wouldnt be very good at that and the fantasy game would likely not include them into that stat. 

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