parrothead

The two-way player issue...

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[ Guys, there's a platform thread dedicated to discussing the merits of each platform, which I would encourage you to take your comments over to if it's not primarily about how platforms are handling two-way players, but a more general comment about how the platforms treat their users, or which one is better for dynasty leagues. ]

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I noticed that fangraphs has a setting titled "Players will always accumulate stats in all scoring category groups" with a description of "If this option is checked, stats will accumulate for players in all scoring category groups, regardless of what position they're set to on their fantasy team. Therefore, pitchers will accumulate all hitting stats that your league tracks, and vice versa, although the latter is of course extremely rare."

That's exactly what I was discussing being the best resolution in this thread. Good job Fantrax

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1 hour ago, kenag122002 said:

I noticed that fangraphs has a setting titled "Players will always accumulate stats in all scoring category groups" with a description of "If this option is checked, stats will accumulate for players in all scoring category groups, regardless of what position they're set to on their fantasy team. Therefore, pitchers will accumulate all hitting stats that your league tracks, and vice versa, although the latter is of course extremely rare."

That's exactly what I was discussing being the best resolution in this thread. Good job Fantrax

Fangraphs or Fantrax?

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So in doing some roster clean-up yesterday, I noticed on the team that owns Ohtani in our league that uses On-roto, it said Ohtani - pitcher and then in looking through free agent list there were an Ohntani hitter.  

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On 1/24/2018 at 3:01 PM, kenag122002 said:

I noticed that fangraphs has a setting titled "Players will always accumulate stats in all scoring category groups" with a description of "If this option is checked, stats will accumulate for players in all scoring category groups, regardless of what position they're set to on their fantasy team. Therefore, pitchers will accumulate all hitting stats that your league tracks, and vice versa, although the latter is of course extremely rare."

That's exactly what I was discussing being the best resolution in this thread. Good job Fantrax

 

Personal, I HATE that option......since that would mean hitting stats for ALL pitchers would count.   

 

In theory, this doesn't sound like a terrible idea.  The hitting stats for 99.9% of pitchers will be terrible.......so theoretically, all teams in a fantasy league would be hurt equally by the hitting stats of their SP's...so no harm, no foul.

 

The problem is that the AL uses the DH while the 'NL does not.   This means that NL Starting Pitchers wull hurt a fantasy team's hitting stats (particularly batting average)....while AL pitchers will not hurt hitting stats because they never hit,.    It would completely disrupt SP rankings, where NL pitchers value would be artificially diminished because of the negative effect of their batting stats.

 

Until and unless both leagues use the DH......(or neither league uses the DH).......I believe counting all stats (hitting and pitching) for is a terrible idea that's even worse than Yahoo's decision to go with the 2-Ohtani method........just my $0.02

 

(of course, if you are in an NL or AL only league, this setting would make much more sense)

 

 

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15 hours ago, misterf said:

 

Personal, I HATE that option......since that would mean hitting stats for ALL pitchers would count.   

 

In theory, this doesn't sound like a terrible idea.  The hitting stats for 99.9% of pitchers will be terrible.......so theoretically, all teams in a fantasy league would be hurt equally by the hitting stats of their SP's...so no harm, no foul.

 

The problem is that the AL uses the DH while the 'NL does not.   This means that NL Starting Pitchers wull hurt a fantasy team's hitting stats (particularly batting average)....while AL pitchers will not hurt hitting stats because they never hit,.    It would completely disrupt SP rankings, where NL pitchers value would be artificially diminished because of the negative effect of their batting stats.

 

Until and unless both leagues use the DH......(or neither league uses the DH).......I believe counting all stats (hitting and pitching) for is a terrible idea that's even worse than Yahoo's decision to go with the 2-Ohtani method........just my $0.02

 

(of course, if you are in an NL or AL only league, this setting would make much more sense)

 

 

 

100% agree with this. The counting of all stats distorts the whole. Would bump every AL pitcher, and would hurt every NL pitcher. Even the best hitting pitchers are still usually overall bad hitters. Just doesn't make sense doing this to accommodate one player. Hopefully changes will be made to fix this across all sites (i.e. giving the player P, UTIL eligibility and counting the stats at the position you play him). This is an issue with Brendan McKay as well who is currently the #39 prospect on Baseball America and hits and pitches. If Ohtani is successful with this, we could be seeing many more of these types. Sites would be better off getting ahead now while they have the chance.

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2 hours ago, Sidearmer said:

 

100% agree with this. The counting of all stats distorts the whole. Would bump every AL pitcher, and would hurt every NL pitcher. Even the best hitting pitchers are still usually overall bad hitters. Just doesn't make sense doing this to accommodate one player. Hopefully changes will be made to fix this across all sites (i.e. giving the player P, UTIL eligibility and counting the stats at the position you play him). This is an issue with Brendan McKay as well who is currently the #39 prospect on Baseball America and hits and pitches. If Ohtani is successful with this, we could be seeing many more of these types. Sites would be better off getting ahead now while they have the chance.

I definitely agree. But to be fair, there is also a legit inherent advantage to pitching that many more games under no-DH rules.

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:13 AM, parrothead said:

I too think thats weird, Ive been stating from the beginning I think him as 2 players would likely be the scenario, but I favor the team that drafts him getting both the hitter and the pitcher, not two seperate.  But that is one of those things that leagues can agree upon even if the settings are not such...

 

The league I commish is trying to figure out how to handle this. It seems the easy route is to just make him two players and let two different owners own him...but that seems ridiculous. It's just a difficult route going forward. 

 

On 1/7/2018 at 7:55 PM, WahooManiac said:

We're in Yahoo and he's going to be one entity for us. When drafted, you get credit for both...we added an extra roster spot. Guy who drafts O uses that for the extra spot. Everyone else is forced to roster a N/A guy so the spot can't be used, essentially a place holder. Owner gets both Os, and can choose what half, or both, to start daily. No penalty on roster spots, no O for O trades. If he gets traded, both go and the new owner simply drops his current N/A guy

 

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how to handle this. This seems like an interesting way to go about handling the problem. My question is this...doesn't Yahoo cap the rosters at 30 max? If they do, then this creates a problem for my league because we currently use 30 roster spots (22 active, 8 bench...plus 2 NA). Another question I have is this...if Ohtani ends up being a stud, isn't it an unfair advantage to his owner? He's got a great player in that extra spot while everyone else has a minor league guy that can't play. So the Ohtani owner (in my league, as an example) would have 31 players while everyone else has 30. Just doesn't seem equitable. I'm just not sure this is the right path...the more I think about it. 

 

I don't have an issue with someone drafting Ohtani and getting both, but I don't like the idea of his owner getting the extra player on his bench while other teams sit there with an NA guy. On Mondays and Thursdays, this could actually make a difference because of Ohtani the hitter in a season-long roto league. What if he hits a couple of extra HRs or gets a few more RBI on these "off" days that an owner can take advantage of over the course of the season. I've seen many cases where a couple of HR and a few more R/RBI would make a difference in the standings and be the difference in where an owner finishes the season.

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:13 PM, WahooManiac said:

Every once in awhile, I have my moments. For any running a custom league its a pretty easy work around. Only thing you'd have to watch for is someone abusing the dead roster holder spot for streaming or something. I trust these guys not to do that, but I suppose it could be handled thru penalty if needed

 

I trust my guys, too but there's always the possibility that there is an owner inadvertently utilizes that one spot. 

 

On 1/11/2018 at 9:56 AM, duke of queens said:

Do you guys have DL spots, if so how are you handling if he happens to go on the DL?

 

That's one of my questions, too. 

 

On 1/11/2018 at 10:14 AM, WahooManiac said:

Yes we have 3 DL spots. But this is a good question that we honestly didn't think of LOL. I suppose, if he hits the dl, we'd either have to add an additional dl spot (trusting the rest of the league to again not abuse here. Or we could just let the owner dl one Ohtani, and the second Ohtani would remain in the previously added NA dead spot. With the caveat that of course the Oh owner can't abuse an extra roster spot either. 

 

Good question, thx for asking. But I think it still works

 

The second option doesn't seem to change anything, unless I'm not understanding it correctly. Ohtani's owner would already be utilizing the "extra" spot for one Ohtani. Placing one of the two on the DL and leaving the other in the "extra" spot doesn't change anything.  

 

 

I'm curious to continue this conversation and talk through this with other Yahoo commissioners to see how it's being handled. Yes it sucks that Yahoo went this direction, and they're making it more difficult on us. But we have to deal with it or pick up our leagues and move. Personally, I don't want to move my league, but I also want to find the best solution to the problem they've created. 

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On 1/24/2018 at 1:12 PM, duke of queens said:

Fangraphs or Fantrax?

So do they have him listed as two or the only way to get Ohtani hitting stats is to click that all pitchers get stats?  Curious what the majority of leagues on their site are?  I think any standard sized leagues (and smaller) that use weekly lineups or longer settings he probably will have pretty limited value as a hitter, would be like a part-time platoon guy, and those guys have great daily matchup value.  

 

 

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@Flyman75 to address your points...yes, if he's truly the next Babe, using this workaround would be a huge advantage. I guess it comes down to "are you ok with that". Our take is that if is the next Babe, well the owner SHOULD get that advantage. 

 

Not sure on roster max, if so then yes this won't work. This needs an 11 team dead active spot to work. 

 

DL should work. The sp version goes to dl, just like normal, opens up a spot for ww pickup, just like normal. The hitting version would just sit on bench in that extra active dead spot. Essentially, while on dl, it's a 12 person dead spot, not 11. When he's off dl, owner activates sp version and drops a guy, just like normal. 

 

Re: inadvertent n/a misuse...There's no two ways around it, it has to be watched. We're using the 11 most obscure, not getting the call, kinda guys we can dredge up. Telling the guys to just ignore the milb guy you've never heard of all year. It's simply a place holder to fool the system.

 

The cool thing about this, while not perfect, is that it allows the possibility of getting both sets of stats on same game. If he goes 8ip strong, and walks off on a grand slam you COULD get all of that. Provided you started both hitter and pitcher that day. 

 

This prob isn't the best fix for really deep, big roster and/or weekly lineup leagues. But if you're a small spin-off from a normal redraft setup, it can work. Better than nothing anyway

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1 hour ago, WahooManiac said:

@Flyman75 to address your points...yes, if he's truly the next Babe, using this workaround would be a huge advantage. I guess it comes down to "are you ok with that". Our take is that if is the next Babe, well the owner SHOULD get that advantage. 

 

Not sure on roster max, if so then yes this won't work. This needs an 11 team dead active spot to work. 

 

DL should work. The sp version goes to dl, just like normal, opens up a spot for ww pickup, just like normal. The hitting version would just sit on bench in that extra active dead spot. Essentially, while on dl, it's a 12 person dead spot, not 11. When he's off dl, owner activates sp version and drops a guy, just like normal. 

 

Re: inadvertent n/a misuse...There's no two ways around it, it has to be watched. We're using the 11 most obscure, not getting the call, kinda guys we can dredge up. Telling the guys to just ignore the milb guy you've never heard of all year. It's simply a place holder to fool the system.

 

The cool thing about this, while not perfect, is that it allows the possibility of getting both sets of stats on same game. If he goes 8ip strong, and walks off on a grand slam you COULD get all of that. Provided you started both hitter and pitcher that day. 

 

This prob isn't the best fix for really deep, big roster and/or weekly lineup leagues. But if you're a small spin-off from a normal redraft setup, it can work. Better than nothing anyway

 

I personally don't believe any team should enjoy an unfair advantage, whether he's the next Babe or not. Creating an additional spot for his owner while the other owners have to carry some minor league scrub does exactly that. It gives his owner one addition player...one addition bat or pitcher. I just don't think that's fair to the other owners. But if the league is okay with it, then I guess you go with it. I would question whether the other owners have actually thought about the unfair advantage your league's set-up provides to whoever drafts him. 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your set-up, but it just seems like your basically giving his owner an extra active player. 

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3 hours ago, Flyman75 said:

 

I personally don't believe any team should enjoy an unfair advantage, whether he's the next Babe or not. Creating an additional spot for his owner while the other owners have to carry some minor league scrub does exactly that. It gives his owner one addition player...one addition bat or pitcher. I just don't think that's fair to the other owners. But if the league is okay with it, then I guess you go with it. I would question whether the other owners have actually thought about the unfair advantage your league's set-up provides to whoever drafts him. 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your set-up, but it just seems like your basically giving his owner an extra active player. 

Its not an unfair advantage in my league with games played limits. Go ahead and use him as a hitter while i use a major league hitter in my util or whatever spot. And go and pay for that so called advantage in leagues without limits whether drafting higher or paying more in auction. As long as everyone has a shot at him its not unfair. I plan to stay away.

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4 hours ago, Flyman75 said:

 

I personally don't believe any team should enjoy an unfair advantage, whether he's the next Babe or not. Creating an additional spot for his owner while the other owners have to carry some minor league scrub does exactly that. It gives his owner one addition player...one addition bat or pitcher. I just don't think that's fair to the other owners. But if the league is okay with it, then I guess you go with it. I would question whether the other owners have actually thought about the unfair advantage your league's set-up provides to whoever drafts him. 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your set-up, but it just seems like your basically giving his owner an extra active player. 

I can't disagree with you, it's really about what one is comfortable with. But again, you're basing all this on the chance he hits the Babe type ceiling...We figure if he really is the second guy in over 100 years of baseball to be fantasy significant in both hitting and pitching, you should get that "advantage". 

The risk is he just isn't good and all this amounts to nothing, and you prob over paid for him. 

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I'm sorry if this has been posted.  Haven't been by in a while and don't want to catch up on 6 pages of posts.

 

I emailed ESPN and, although they never really seem to answer your question exactly, it sounded like Ohtani would be one player.

 

The response I got was that he would only accrue hitting stats while in a position player spot and pitching stats while in a pitching spot.

 

Let me to believe he'd be one player with P & OF (or DH) eligibility.

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8 hours ago, Flyman75 said:

 

I personally don't believe any team should enjoy an unfair advantage, whether he's the next Babe or not. Creating an additional spot for his owner while the other owners have to carry some minor league scrub does exactly that. It gives his owner one addition player...one addition bat or pitcher. I just don't think that's fair to the other owners. But if the league is okay with it, then I guess you go with it. I would question whether the other owners have actually thought about the unfair advantage your league's set-up provides to whoever drafts him. 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your set-up, but it just seems like your basically giving his owner an extra active player. 

 

Except Ohtani is one person.  That team still rosters 30 human beings, just like everyone else.

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1 minute ago, 89Topps said:

 

Except Ohtani is one person.  That team still rosters 30 human beings, just like everyone else.

 

Except in Yahoo's world...where he's two people. So if you own Ohtani the hitter and pitcher on Yahoo, you have one person taking up two rosters spots. On CBS, ESPN, Fantrax, and others, he's one person. In Yahoo, not so much. 

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53 minutes ago, Flyman75 said:

 

Except in Yahoo's world...where he's two people. So if you own Ohtani the hitter and pitcher on Yahoo, you have one person taking up two rosters spots. On CBS, ESPN, Fantrax, and others, he's one person. In Yahoo, not so much. 

I get the frustration, but like you moving a ten year league just isn't happening. Also, mines a H2H so the roto advantage you're worried about doesn't hit us as hard. I will say though, the advantage would mirror real life pretty well. How huge in real life would it be to roster a HR champ/CY young guy all in one guy?! And why not allow for that in fantasy?

 

How much you want your league to mirror real life ball is an age old question that three decades of fantasy has yet to answer. We decided that any O vs O situation was too dumb to stomach. We're trying it out for a year. 

Edited by WahooManiac
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12 hours ago, Flyman75 said:

 

Except in Yahoo's world...where he's two people. So if you own Ohtani the hitter and pitcher on Yahoo, you have one person taking up two rosters spots. On CBS, ESPN, Fantrax, and others, he's one person. In Yahoo, not so much. 

 

I understand that, but he's still one actual person.  I like this guy's work around.  He doesn't feel like Ohtani should be counted as 2 people, despite Yahoo's decision.  And I agree.

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I still don't why anyone would want him as 2 players or only get scoring from 1 position each day. He is one player its that simple. Do we say its a disadvantage when there are relievers with Starter eligibility or when position players have ridiculous position eligibilty(ie Rizzo,2B, Schwarber, C). This should not be treated any differently, he is 1 player that should receive stats at the positions he is eligible at. The argument that all pitchers should receive hitting stats than is ridiculous. Those pitchers aren't DHing or playing any other position besides pitcher.

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21 hours ago, Flyman75 said:

 

I personally don't believe any team should enjoy an unfair advantage, whether he's the next Babe or not. Creating an additional spot for his owner while the other owners have to carry some minor league scrub does exactly that. It gives his owner one addition player...one addition bat or pitcher. I just don't think that's fair to the other owners. But if the league is okay with it, then I guess you go with it. I would question whether the other owners have actually thought about the unfair advantage your league's set-up provides to whoever drafts him. 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your set-up, but it just seems like your basically giving his owner an extra active player. 

If you know thats what the rule is when you go into the auction/draft and you think its a competitive advantage to have that, then draft him early.  Whatever leagues opt to do, I think as long as they are clear so people know going into the auction or draft, then its fine.  The challenge is when he is already taken in some leagues like ours, because then its like you are setting up rules which have a direct impact on ONE franchise one way or another.  

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56 minutes ago, duke of queens said:

I still don't why anyone would want him as 2 players or only get scoring from 1 position each day. He is one player its that simple. Do we say its a disadvantage when there are relievers with Starter eligibility or when position players have ridiculous position eligibilty(ie Rizzo,2B, Schwarber, C). This should not be treated any differently, he is 1 player that should receive stats at the positions he is eligible at. The argument that all pitchers should receive hitting stats than is ridiculous. Those pitchers aren't DHing or playing any other position besides pitcher.

Agree 1000% with this notion that we should start counting pitchers hitting stats, its completely missing the skillset, NONE of them hit outside the days they pitch, no American league pitcher hits for themselves, occasionally in some late innings you may, may see the random pitcher pinch hit, maybe to bunt or maybe to save a hitter for a better spot late in the game. 

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2 hours ago, 89Topps said:

 

I understand that, but he's still one actual person.  I like this guy's work around.  He doesn't feel like Ohtani should be counted as 2 people, despite Yahoo's decision.  And I agree.

 

I understand. I'm pretty irritated that Yahoo has put us in this position of having to figure out what to do, but after reading tonycpu's post, I kinda understand too. I actually may be coming around on his point, too, because if Yahoo had done what CBS and ESPN has done, then it would be virtually the same thing. 

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1 hour ago, parrothead said:

If you know thats what the rule is when you go into the auction/draft and you think its a competitive advantage to have that, then draft him early.  Whatever leagues opt to do, I think as long as they are clear so people know going into the auction or draft, then its fine.  The challenge is when he is already taken in some leagues like ours, because then its like you are setting up rules which have a direct impact on ONE franchise one way or another.  

 

Yeah, as long as the league understands and is for it, then it's all good because each league has to decide how it wants to run things. But like you said, the key is making sure everyone understands what is going on. 

 

Ohtani is already owned in the league I commish, too, and I've been communicating with his owner. But he has such a studly keeper list, that I doubt he keeps him. At least I wouldn't. 

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6 minutes ago, Flyman75 said:

 

Yeah, as long as the league understands and is for it, then it's all good because each league has to decide how it wants to run things. But like you said, the key is making sure everyone understands what is going on. 

 

Ohtani is already owned in the league I commish, too, and I've been communicating with his owner. But he has such a studly keeper list, that I doubt he keeps him. At least I wouldn't. 

So in our league, we dont do lineups, we have 23 Active guys, period, no bench.  Ohtani is owned as a minor leaguer but because we dont do lineups, its doubtful a guy hitting 3-4 times a week is going to be valuable enough to roster as an OF or DH in a 13-team mixed league.  So he is listed as 2 players (Ohtani the P and Ohtani the H using Onroto) but he does not have to activate both, but no matter what they are tied together for roster purposes.  

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