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Jose Martinez 2018 Outlook

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1 minute ago, meh2 said:

As a Royals fan this type of deal would make me cringe but it’s just the type of trade Dayton Moore might do. KC is going to be one of the worst teams in all of baseball  for at least the next 3 years and most likely longer. Adding a 30 year old DH now would make no sense to just about any other GM in this spot, but they’ve been making these strange moves a lot recently. Sadly, whoever they deal Moose for likely won’t move the needle much since every other team knows they’re more concerned with shedding his salary for the rest of the year and making the Glass family a couple million dollars richer.

Why?  They have nobody really pushing for DH at bats.  Martinez is still cheap, at least for the next year or two.  Yes, they won't contend, but if Martinez gets more at bats and proves he's a legit 300 hitter with 20-25 hrs, he would have more value then.  The Royals have nothing to lose playing him in the OF our at first base, maybe he improves. They could likely trade him for better prospects than they would ever get for Moustkas.  

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Anyone else read STL's new manager's name as Mike Shidt at first glance?

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Cards prez John Mozeliak on keeping vs. trading Martinez, via STL Post-Dispatch:

 

As they decide a direction in the coming week, the Cardinals could explore what Martinez could yield from an AL team.

“Yeah, at some point,” Mozeliak said. “Right now, that asset could be a great bat off the bench. Obviously, long term, that is something we need to think through.”

 

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinals-notebook-cards-go-with-warner-as-bench-coach/article_fb0d96ac-d662-57a7-ac33-9f7b168e1a79.html

Edited by Caelum
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Upon further review I think the Cardinals scapegoating arguably their best bat is a move that dog**** teams make.  Hoskins, Hosmer and Harper all rate out as worse defenders than Martinez.  Those guys never sniff the bench.  Jose Abreu who has a similar body and has been a statue at first for years.  His defense sucks, but Kolton Wong’s .210 average sucks and Martinez offensive WAR rating is higher than Wong’s defensive WAR rating.  Cardinals whiffed badly here.  

Edited by Cmilne23
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12 hours ago, azeri98 said:

Tough to keep him now, the new manager seems to value defense over offense, unless The Gyrk goes in the tank with the bat we have seen the last of JM unless he gets traded or an injury

 

So why is Marcell Ozuna still a starter? 

 

90 wRC+

-2.2 off

-3.3 def

0.7 WAR

 

Keep thinking he will turn things around St Louis. You're only paying him $9 million this year….

 

 

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17 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

There just aren't many (any?) open DH positions around the AL nowadays.  So many teams are using the DH to cycle in everyday players to give them a day off in the field, and the teams that aren't doing that already have the DH position covered or aren't contending and thus won't be willing to pay for a guy who doesn't have a long track record or a truly irreplaceable skill.

 

I'm still holding in a deeper league, but if your league context means you need him to become an everyday player to be worth rostering, I think you have to make him your next drop.

I disagree with this. Teams rotating the DH are doing so partly out of necessity because they don't have a bat good enough to stay in the role. 

 

Furthermore, Jose's market is not limited to contenders, in fact, I think he is highly attractive to non-contenders and spending conscious teams since he's not arbitration eligible until 2020, and won't hit free agency until 2023 when he's 34 years old. You control the entire prime of his career for peanuts. That's incredibly attractive regardless of your position this year.

 

Additionally, with another 4-5 years of control it would be possible for the acquiring team to flip him down the road should they choose to.

 

If St. Louis has decided they are not going to play him full-time, their best bet would be to move him in a package for an arm, bullpen or starter, they are only 4.5 games out of the 2nd wild card, 5.5 back of 1st wild card (god I hate that WC format). I don't see a well run org like St. Louis wasting a valuable asset like this. 

Edited by StevieStats
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11 hours ago, Low and Away said:

Maybe but I just feel that even for a rental K.C. should be able to do better.

I doubt it.  I say this as a Tiger fan and seeing what we got for JD Martinez.  I think Jose Martinez for Moose straight up would be a coup rather than getting a Class A ball prospect package like Detroit got for JD Freaking Martinez.  Dawel Lugo was the centerpiece prospect. 

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6 hours ago, Cmilne23 said:

Upon further review I think the Cardinals scapegoating arguably their best bat is a move that dog**** teams make.  Hoskins, Hosmer and Harper all rate out as worse defenders than Martinez.  Those guys never sniff the bench.  Jose Abreu who has a similar body and has been a statue at first for years.  His defense sucks, but Kolton Wong’s .210 average sucks and Martinez offensive WAR rating is higher than Wong’s defensive WAR rating.  Cardinals whiffed badly here.  

 

Hosmer has 4 gold gloves no intelligent person would claim that Jose Martinez is a better defender or in the same class as him and comparing him to outfielders isn't fair. Also like many others have said outside the errors there are also mental errors and plays most competent 1B make that he doesn't.

 

I'd still play him regularly though as at 1B you can hide someone but in tight games sub him out defensively so you don't have to worry about a play at the plate from RF and him being the cut off man or picking up a fellow infielder with a scoop at 1B etc...

Edited by turner46
add or in same class
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4 minutes ago, Baseball Jonze said:

I doubt it.  I say this as a Tiger fan and seeing what we got for JD Martinez.  I think Jose Martinez for Moose straight up would be a coup rather than getting a Class A ball prospect package like Detroit got for JD Freaking Martinez.  Dawel Lugo was the centerpiece prospect. 

The Royals need prospects though as when will they be contending again? 3-5years if lucky?

 

A lot of IFs above as in IF Martinez continues hitting the next three years, IF he improves defensively, IF there is no decline as he approaches his mid thirties, and IF another team has an opening for a straight DH which most (not all) are getting away from and using the DH as a rotating position to get players a rest day.

 

It could be a good trade for the Cards but I just don't see it for the Royals. For the Royals it seems like spinning their wheels and just staying bad.

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11 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

The Royals need prospects though as when will they be contending again? 3-5years if lucky?

 

A lot of IFs above as in IF Martinez continues hitting the next three years, IF he improves defensively, IF there is no decline as he approaches his mid thirties, and IF another team has an opening for a straight DH which most (not all) are getting away from and using the DH as a rotating position to get players a rest day.

 

It could be a good trade for the Cards but I just don't see it for the Royals. For the Royals it seems like spinning their wheels and just staying bad.

 

At the moment martinez hasnt proved to sustain anything that would net a prospect even worth mentioning. Royals trade for Jmart, put him at DH full time. IF he rakes you get a nice prospect package down the line. IF he doesnt all you missed out on was some no name single A prospect that youd prob never see above AA, no risk for the royals for what theyd have to give imo

 

obv this all depends on the cards asking price and this is assuming its not very high at all

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21 minutes ago, turner46 said:

 

Hosmer has 4 gold gloves no intelligent person would claim that Jose Martinez is a better defender or in the same class as him and comparing him to outfielders isn't fair. Also like many others have said outside the errors there are also mental errors and plays most competent 1B make that he doesn't.

 

I'd still play him regularly though as at 1B you can hide someone but in tight games sub him out defensively so you don't have to worry about a play at the plate from RF and him being the cut off man or picking up a fellow infielder with a scoop at 1B etc...

 

Hosmer's GG awards are more an indictment on 1B in the AL. Pretty much every season of his career he has had a negative DEF, negative dWAR, and has never surpassed 3 DRS at first. I don't think he sniffs GG in the NL. 

 

I mean, I'd still buck the metrics and rank him ahead of Martinez. Martinez is next level terrible at first imo.

Edited by phillyphan21
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1 hour ago, StevieStats said:

I disagree with this. Teams rotating the DH are doing so partly out of necessity because they don't have a bat good enough to stay in the role. 

 

"Partly" is doing a lot of work here.  Obviously, if every AL team had clones of David Ortiz or Edgar Martinez available, they'd let their regulars sit on the bench for a day off and give the DH starts to that guy, but there are only so many of those guys, and Jose Martinez isn't nearly at that level.  Meanwhile, the 8-man bullpen is becoming the norm, meaning AL clubs like the Mariners that have a full-time DH end up with a 3-man bench that severely limits their flexibility.  That's obviously worth it for a Nelson Cruz type bat, but Jose Martinez doesn't have Cruz's long track record of being an elite hitter.  He's had two very good but not great years.

 

1 hour ago, StevieStats said:

Furthermore, Jose's market is not limited to contenders, in fact, I think he is highly attractive to non-contenders and spending conscious teams since he's not arbitration eligible until 2020, and won't hit free agency until 2023 when he's 34 years old. You control the entire prime of his career for peanuts. That's incredibly attractive regardless of your position this year.

 

The entire prime of his career?  I mean, studies don't always agree about when the exact peak of a player's career is, but they all agree that by the time the player's age 30 season rolls around, their prime has passed, and the player's skills are going to decline.  Of course we've seen DH-only guys like Ortiz and Cruz sustain solid production until much later, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.  Most guys fade long before that.

 

1 hour ago, StevieStats said:

Additionally, with another 4-5 years of control it would be possible for the acquiring team to flip him down the road should they choose to.

 

In an era where 1B-only guys can barely find work, I have a hard time believing that a 32 or 33 year old full-time DH is going to have any trade value whatsoever.  Teams value defense more nowadays, and they value extra relief arms to avoid their starters having to face batters 3 times.  If you really think Jose Martinez has show enough that he belongs in the same conversation as David Ortiz and Nelson Cruz, then I guess we'll just disagree.  He's a very nice bat who should be good for a few more years, but he's not the kind of guy a cellar-dwelling team is going to build around.

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3 minutes ago, phillyphan21 said:

 

Hosmer's GG awards are more an indictment on 1B in the AL. Pretty much every season of his career he has had a negative DEF, negative dWAR, and has never surpassed 3 DRS at first. I don't think he sniffs GG in the NL. 

 

I mean, I'd still buck the metrics and rank him ahead of Martinez. Martinez is next level terrible at first imo.

 

I'm glad you said next level terrible, after reading your facts the Martinez fan club have even more ammo for a trade to the AL, not only to DH some will now claim he has a shot at the Gold Glove.

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13 hours ago, meh2 said:

As a Royals fan this type of deal would make me cringe but it’s just the type of trade Dayton Moore might do. KC is going to be one of the worst teams in all of baseball  for at least the next 3 years and most likely longer. Adding a 30 year old DH now would make no sense to just about any other GM in this spot, but they’ve been making these strange moves a lot recently. Sadly, whoever they deal Moose for likely won’t move the needle much since every other team knows they’re more concerned with shedding his salary for the rest of the year and making the Glass family a couple million dollars richer.

 

It's not even about shedding salary. For one, Martinez has been a better hitter than Moustakas this year. He's controlled for 4 more years while Moustakas might leave for nothing.  I guess I dont know if they can give him a qualifying offer on a one year deal. If they can give him a QO, then whatever it's not a big deal if Moustakas leaves I guess. Sandwich pick or Jose Martinez for 4 years?  Im guess Martinez is porbably more valuable. 

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27 minutes ago, fistfullwales said:

Please trade him already.

I have the gut feeling he will be.  These benchings are ridiculous. I imagine his agent has been on STL front office regularly.

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Would love to see him dealt to the red Sox or Yankees.

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2 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

It's not even about shedding salary. For one, Martinez has been a better hitter than Moustakas this year. He's controlled for 4 more years while Moustakas might leave for nothing.  I guess I dont know if they can give him a qualifying offer on a one year deal. If they can give him a QO, then whatever it's not a big deal if Moustakas leaves I guess. Sandwich pick or Jose Martinez for 4 years?  Im guess Martinez is porbably more valuable. 

I guess I worded it poorly. Yes, 4 years of Martinez is more valuable than 2 months of Moose. My issue is how poorly the Royals are handling their rebuild to this point and my fear would be that they’d end up hanging onto Martinez and continue sucking for the indefinite future. To me the Royals have the worst combination of major league assets and minor league farm system in all of baseball.  They need to do a better job accumulating as many young prospects as possible with a goal of being competitive in 2024 or so.

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1 hour ago, meh2 said:

I guess I worded it poorly. Yes, 4 years of Martinez is more valuable than 2 months of Moose. My issue is how poorly the Royals are handling their rebuild to this point and my fear would be that they’d end up hanging onto Martinez and continue sucking for the indefinite future. To me the Royals have the worst combination of major league assets and minor league farm system in all of baseball.  They need to do a better job accumulating as many young prospects as possible with a goal of being competitive in 2024 or so.

 

But you could trade Martinez for better prospects than 2 months of Moose.  Moose has essentially zero value, look at what they got for Herrera.  That said this trade will never happen, so kind of silly to discuss.

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5 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

 

"Partly" is doing a lot of work here.  Obviously, if every AL team had clones of David Ortiz or Edgar Martinez available, they'd let their regulars sit on the bench for a day off and give the DH starts to that guy, but there are only so many of those guys, and Jose Martinez isn't nearly at that level.  Meanwhile, the 8-man bullpen is becoming the norm, meaning AL clubs like the Mariners that have a full-time DH end up with a 3-man bench that severely limits their flexibility.  That's obviously worth it for a Nelson Cruz type bat, but Jose Martinez doesn't have Cruz's long track record of being an elite hitter.  He's had two very good but not great years.

 

 

The entire prime of his career?  I mean, studies don't always agree about when the exact peak of a player's career is, but they all agree that by the time the player's age 30 season rolls around, their prime has passed, and the player's skills are going to decline.  Of course we've seen DH-only guys like Ortiz and Cruz sustain solid production until much later, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.  Most guys fade long before that.

 

 

In an era where 1B-only guys can barely find work, I have a hard time believing that a 32 or 33 year old full-time DH is going to have any trade value whatsoever.  Teams value defense more nowadays, and they value extra relief arms to avoid their starters having to face batters 3 times.  If you really think Jose Martinez has show enough that he belongs in the same conversation as David Ortiz and Nelson Cruz, then I guess we'll just disagree.  He's a very nice bat who should be good for a few more years, but he's not the kind of guy a cellar-dwelling team is going to build around.

Come on Tony, not every DH needs to be a Hall of Famer or perennial All Star/HR king contender. 

 

In his brief career Martinez has a .307 Avg, .872 OPS in 207 G/606 AB... That's a very very productive hitter. There's only 19 hitters in the MLB that have a .300+ Avg and .800+ OPS. He can certainly hold his own as a DH and play a little in the field, he played the field all year until recently anyway. 

 

We've seen hitters like Victor Martinez, Kendrys Morales, geriatric Carlos Beltran, Matt Holliday, Evan Gattis, Mark Trumbo, Billy Butler carve out fulltime gigs as a DH on teams, and that's ignoring a contract burden like Pujols.

 

Besides, he can rotate in the field, he's played 70+ games in the field this year as it is even though he's a poor fielder. 

 

It's no certainty he gets traded, but going to an AL team, especially with his bargain contract situation is certainly a very realistic possibility, if not this season than in the off-season. 

 

As for his prime, I get most players primes are late 20s, but this is Martinez' 2nd season and played just over 100 games last year, so in his case, no his prime hasn't past yet.

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16 minutes ago, Cmilne23 said:

Out again vs Lester fresh on the heels off the Cards D looking like the bad news bears.  The new manager doesn’t appear to know baseball too well.  Hitting a dog**** Wong 6th over Pham.  Wong hits .190 with a .480 ops vs LHP.  This situation looks like a disaster with Mike Sh*t as manager.  

 

A 12 spot through 5 suggests otherwise. 

 

 

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I can't see any AL team picking him up period.  If he can't play a position he better be named Ortiz or Cruz.  And prime is about age, not number of games played.

 

Moose will be traded first because he is really cheap being a rentel and because both the Yankees and Red Sox could use some 3B support what with Devers on the DL and Andujar fading some.  Meanwhile this guy can't play 1B let alone 3B.  And rebuilding teams don't need a 30 year old.  And they need to get prospects, not give them away.

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No reason to drop yet except maybe NL only.  He's going to be traded to the AL most likely in season.  Early candidates include Houston and Cleveland.

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1 hour ago, murraygd13 said:

 

But you could trade Martinez for better prospects than 2 months of Moose.  Moose has essentially zero value, look at what they got for Herrera.  That said this trade will never happen, so kind of silly to discuss.

Couldn't the Cards trade him than for something better?

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