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What about a Dynasty forum in each sport's section?

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Hi everybody,

 

After a decade playing redraft leagues and having fun with it I now only play a dynasty league in each sport and found this is a common trend for long time Fantasy players.

 

Therefor I was surprised to see there is no dedicated Dynasty section in the Forum. As we all know dynasty is a different kind of game and an interesting way to play I'm sure it would be a very busy place... and it would help us, dynasty players, not entering convos where values/analyzes are seen short term.

 

I'm sure this has been asked to those ruling this place already but I'm curious to hear what is the reason for no Dynasty section.

 

Thanks!

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Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm among those who greatly prefer dynasty leagues over redraft, so I'm sympathetic to any idea that could help generate more dynasty talk.  At the same time, though I can't speak for the rest of the staff, I see a few problems with establishing a separate dynasty forum for each sport.

 

The first is volume.  Though you're right that dynasty is growing in popularity, redraft is still many times more popular than dynasty.  This means a smaller audience for a new dynasty forum, and more difficulty keeping the conversation going, because now people need to add the dynasty forum to their regular routine of checking the site -- one more click, one more forum to keep up with.

 

Then there are the logistical concerns.  Do we have separate player outlook threads for dynasty?  Or is the intent just to have a handful of strategy-focused threads?  I can't imagine it would be a net positive to divide up player outlook threads, as most of the in-season updates are relevant regardless of format.  So then people end up cross-posting in both the redraft outlook and dynasty outlook threads, and...  I worry that the dynasty forums would become disused and blighted.  And when it comes to prospects, which is the biggest thing that distinguishes dynasty from redraft, those guys are already being talked about in the MiLB forum.  I just worry that there's too much duplication with the other forums, and not enough volume to sustain a dedicated dynasty forum.

 

Finally, I rather like the idea of having dynasty talk mixed in with the larger audience of redraft, because it can help get more people interested in dynasty.  Breaking things out into a separate dynasty forum limits that crossover appeal.

 

If you're primary interested in dynasty, I think the best approach is to post some new topics in the [Sport] Talk forum of your choice focused on dynasty strategy, dynasty value targets, prospects to keep an eye on, etc.  Maybe a separate thread for discussing dynasty rankings.  I do think there's enough interest to make these active topics, but not enough that I think we should consider walling them off into a separate forum.  Not yet, at least.

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I don't have time to post a long reply atm but I thank you for taking my remark seriously and giving me your point.

Many fair points and you are right that dynasty can still be discussed within the current sections.

I can't really judge how popular a Dynasty section would be indeed...

The main reason I've asked in the first place is because I get frustrated many times being the only one taking the long term approach in consideration while discussing a player's value (ie in the assistant coach section where trades are reviewed).

 

Again I appreciate the fair and well thought answer.

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On 12/27/2017 at 1:22 PM, tonycpsu said:

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm among those who greatly prefer dynasty leagues over redraft, so I'm sympathetic to any idea that could help generate more dynasty talk.  At the same time, though I can't speak for the rest of the staff, I see a few problems with establishing a separate dynasty forum for each sport.

 

The first is volume.  Though you're right that dynasty is growing in popularity, redraft is still many times more popular than dynasty.  This means a smaller audience for a new dynasty forum, and more difficulty keeping the conversation going, because now people need to add the dynasty forum to their regular routine of checking the site -- one more click, one more forum to keep up with.

 

Then there are the logistical concerns.  Do we have separate player outlook threads for dynasty?  Or is the intent just to have a handful of strategy-focused threads?  I can't imagine it would be a net positive to divide up player outlook threads, as most of the in-season updates are relevant regardless of format.  So then people end up cross-posting in both the redraft outlook and dynasty outlook threads, and...  I worry that the dynasty forums would become disused and blighted.  And when it comes to prospects, which is the biggest thing that distinguishes dynasty from redraft, those guys are already being talked about in the MiLB forum.  I just worry that there's too much duplication with the other forums, and not enough volume to sustain a dedicated dynasty forum.

 

Finally, I rather like the idea of having dynasty talk mixed in with the larger audience of redraft, because it can help get more people interested in dynasty.  Breaking things out into a separate dynasty forum limits that crossover appeal.

 

If you're primary interested in dynasty, I think the best approach is to post some new topics in the [Sport] Talk forum of your choice focused on dynasty strategy, dynasty value targets, prospects to keep an eye on, etc.  Maybe a separate thread for discussing dynasty rankings.  I do think there's enough interest to make these active topics, but not enough that I think we should consider walling them off into a separate forum.  Not yet, at least.

 

I understand all of the concerns here, but I don't see the harm in trying it out. I think people who have interest in a dynasty forum will spend a lot more time discussing the value of players relative to one another, how a player's value has changed over time or figures to be impacted moving forward, what the trade market is bearing for a specific player, etc... These are all things that simply aren't allowed to be discussed in the generic "Baseball Talk" or "Football Talk" sections. At least not for more than a couple of posts, before it gets shut down by a mod. 

 

A single post within the general forum dedicated to dynasty strategy, dynasty targets, or dynasty rankings is simply never going to gain traction because you would have to search through hundreds of posts to find any content about any specific player, IF that player's name ever came up. Being able to discuss why you're targeting a certain player or why you think they are ranked too high or too low WITHIN THAT PLAYER'S DYNASTY FOCUSED THREAD is what a lot of people  (myself included) are looking for. It's a big pain to have to qualify every post with "this is for dynasty purposes" every time you post in the normal forum, and then watch as a bunch of people push the conversation back to re-draft. 

 

Re-draft is already a totally different animal than dynasty, but the rise of daily fantasy sports has made the general forum even more short-term focused than ever. I think dynasty deserves it's own space, and if it doesn't take off then scrap it. That's what happened with the IDP Forum, but I think even that was scrapped too soon, as IDP is rising in popularity every year and eventually will become mainstream. Rotoworld should strive to be the place people go to discuss the growing segments of this industry and not simply cater to the lowest common denominator.

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Already had a discussion with 2 mods and a few regular posters here in pm's about this. Final answer: Re drafters are the majority, end of discussion.

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What about mixing a dynasty forum with the current MILB forum? Both are concerned with the same things and often there's a good long discussion about players by the time they get to the big leagues.While the MiLB forum is active, the same posts stay on the front page for weeks at a time, so I don't think it would be overly disruptive.

 

I would personally probably still use the redraft forum for most discussion, but occasionally, there are interesting topics that would be better drawn out in a dynasty thread.

Edited by Hanghow

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38 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

I understand all of the concerns here, but I don't see the harm in trying it out.

 

With all due respect, the cost to you for trying it out is zero, while the cost to us to have to monitor another set of forums, including potentially twice the number of threads, is significant.

 

I'm not saying we can't do it, but there's a cost/benefit analysis that we have to do as a volunteer mod team with limited resources.  This aspect is hard for me to quantify unless you see things from the other side, but I hope you can at least trust me that it exists.

 

38 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

I think people who have interest in a dynasty forum will spend a lot more time discussing the value of players relative to one another, how a player's value has changed over time or figures to be impacted moving forward, what the trade market is bearing for a specific player, etc... These are all things that simply aren't allowed to be discussed in the generic "Baseball Talk" or "Football Talk" sections. At least not for more than a couple of posts, before it gets shut down by a mod. 

 

Here's the problem:  dynasty vs. redraft is just one axis on which leagues are partitioned -- and even that is a simplification because there are keeper formats that aren't redraft but also aren't dynasty... where do those go?  Even within a forum that's focused on dynasty, there are going to be a lot of league context-specific aspects that will lead to people talking past each other.  Like, the discussion that led to this in the Soto thread derailed things because people disagree on whether you should target the next 1-3 years, or have a longer time horizon.  We would still have to shut this down in a Juan Soto thread in the dynasty section, because the issue has less to do with Soto's production and more to do with how people prefer to play.

 

Meanwhile, dynasty leagues are extremely fragmented in terms of salary cap vs. escalating round cost vs. "keep forever", and all of those aspects, along with the usual league depth, roster configuration issues (3 OF vs. 5, CI/MI vs. none, 1C vs. 2C, etc.) will still lead to irreconcilable differences in how to value the player.

 

The end result here is that we know that no matter how many different ways we partition the forums, we know we're going to get some number of people with league configurations that differ from those of the majority.  At that point, it's a lot more efficient to just have one place to go to look for information on Juan Soto than two or more.  You're more than welcome to talk about his dynasty value in Baseball Talk -- the only time we get involved is when arguments break out where people disagree on valuation because of format-specific concerns.  The key is to be clear about what you're saying and not make blanket statements that don't apply to other formats.

 

38 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

It's a big pain to have to qualify every post with "this is for dynasty purposes" every time you post in the normal forum, and then watch as a bunch of people push the conversation back to re-draft. 

 

Is it really that much of a pain?  Five words attached to comments that are focused on dynasty value?  OK, but make sure you also account for the negative impact of the content being split across multiple threads -- not just for the staff, but also users who want to follow more general discussions about the player that aren't as format-specific.  I just feel like you're offering an incomplete assessment of the pros and cons here.

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27 minutes ago, FISH ON said:

Already had a discussion with 2 mods and a few regular posters here in pm's about this. Final answer: Re drafters are the majority, end of discussion.

 

I don't think it's that simple.  I've spilled a lot of electronic ink here trying to communicate the reasons behind our current thinking on this, but it's not a settled question.  It's something that we are happy to have more feedback on and listen to new ideas about, and potentially reconsider if we find the arguments for making a change convincing.

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I'm sorry you guys don't get paid to do what you do. Truly, genuinely sorry. I think that's probably the main issue here. There's no financial incentive to expand the forums, even if that comes at the expense of the quality of the content and the user experience. 

 

It's too bad. I would rather be able to go to one site for both re-draft and keeper/dynasty discussion. When I played in a majority of re-draft leagues, RW forums were easily the best. As I move to more keepers and dynasty leagues, it's servicing my needs less and less. 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

I'm sorry you guys don't get paid to do what you do. Truly, genuinely sorry. I think that's probably the main issue here. There's no financial incentive to expand the forums, even if that comes at the expense of the quality of the content and the user experience. 

 

I have no insight at all into the bean-counting at the RW mothership, but I do think you're making a lot of assumptions about the benefits that will follow from creating new forums.  Expanding the number of forums doesn't necessarily expand the quality or quantity of conversation, and could in fact have the opposite effect.  Folks in the MiLB forum often get upset that their posts there don't get enough traffic, and become irate when we nuke a thread in Baseball Talk because the player hasn't been called up yet.  I can imagine a similar thing happening with "Juan Soto 2018 Dynasty Outlook" -- a handful of dynasty die hards would check in, but over time, I think it would lead to less discussion because it's spread across multiple threads.

 

12 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

It's too bad. I would rather be able to go to one site for both re-draft and keeper/dynasty discussion.

 

There is nothing stopping you from using Baseball Talk to discuss both, other than (a) your reluctance to type five additional words when speaking in dynasty-specific terms and (b) your disappointment that dynasty isn't more popular than redraft.  People can (and do) talk productively about both here -- it just requires being specific about context, and I don't think that's a lot to ask.

 

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There's never going to be compelling enough feedback for you to change your mind about this topic, it's evident by your replies to each point, and the fact that almost every time the dynasty talks start, they get deleted, add in that this entire discussion has been moved from the mainstream forum and basically, swept under the rug here in this basement subsection..... I get it that there are other issues the consider from the hosting site's side of things, but.. [Removed political commentary.]

 

Thanks for this thread as a platform to at least speak our minds on the topic.....smh

Edited by tonycpsu
Removed political commentary.

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4 hours ago, FISH ON said:

There's never going to be compelling enough feedback for you to change your mind about this topic, it's evident by your replies to each point

 

I'm truly sorry you feel that way, but nothing could be farther from the truth.  It's a very busy time of year for these forums, and I'd be well within my rights to simply refer you to the existing request and note that it's not something we're considering right now.  Instead, I've responded to each of the points made so far with my honest perspective on why I don't think it's worth pursuing at this time.  For you to write that off simply because I haven't come around to your point of view seems unfair to me, especially when you haven't made any effort to respond to my counterpoints.

 

4 hours ago, FISH ON said:

and the fact that almost every time the dynasty talks start, they get deleted,

 

Wait, what?  This is just factually incorrect.  I talk about dynasty values all of the time, and I see others doing the same.  The only time deletions come into play is when folks are disagreeing about valuations because of differences in their formats.  Sometimes the differences are dynasty vs. keeper vs. redraft, sometimes they're because of league depth...  This notion that we summarily delete dynasty content in baseball talk because it's off topic is simply false.

 

4 hours ago, FISH ON said:

add in that this entire discussion has been moved from the mainstream forum and basically, swept under the rug here in this basement subsection....

 

Ass a rule, we don't permit discussion of site issues elsewhere in the forums.  This forum is the place for those discussions.  As a courtesy, I left the comment linking to this issue in the Soto thread up, and I reckon that's probably the highest volume thread going right now in terms of a sexy dynasty player where it would get the largest audience.  And yet, we've had just a handful of folks chime in here.

 

Meanwhile, referring to this as a "basement subsection" underscores my point about the dynasty forum, because I believe that's what it would become, while also taking away traffic from the current player outlook threads.  Again, by all means, talk about dynasty value in those threads!  Nobody is stopping you from doing that!

 

Many of us on the staff play in dynasty leagues, and most of us are active participants in the discussions in addition to our role keeping things running smoothly.  I have very little doubt that we would have tried a separate dynasty forum out if even one of us felt like it would add value.  But please don't mistake our sincere belief that it's not a good idea with not being open to being persuaded otherwise, or with us not taking these concerns seriously.

 

And if you have somehow arrived at the impression that talk of dynasty in Baseball Talk is forbidden, well, that's not the case, and I invite you to talk as much dynasty as you'd like as long as you make that context clear.

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I've been talking up a sub section for dynasty baseball since 2007 when I found, and then joined your community,  So for you to tell me that I couldn't be further from the truth when I stated that there will never be enough compelling interest to even consider a dynasty platform, well,  father time begs to differ with you about that statement. 11 years of futility, hell, I didn't even fight for 11 days to save my first marriage, but I've been asking here for 11 years........gotta say though, the last round table we had to discuss this had a mod that felt that I insulted him with something I posted about the mods not doing their jobs censoring some cussing, so the entire discussion went sideways due to his feelings being hurt, you sir, have been open minded( to a degree), well, maybe not really as your mind is set on this issue and.....enough with that, , but you haven't gotten personal like the last person did, so I thank you for that...

 

I may have overstated the point about all dynasty talks being deleted, but you mods DO censor the dynasty talks more than the pissy back and forth childish bs that you let go on for far too long at times,  those long, drawn out arguements about who's right and who' wrong, that stuff got old about 5-6 years ago when the boards went all crazy....I'll concede one point to you about my overstating that point, I was wrong, my bad......

 

And yes, referring to this as a basement subsection is correct, how else would you describe it? it's buried way down at the bottom of the index list, in the Off Topic subsection.  Nowhere do you see: " Baseball, or Dynasty in the off topic section, unless someone is specifically looking for something in the off topic subsection, or was directed to go there for a specific thread, how would anyone even know what's there? With us discussing a topic like dynasty platforms, one would be think, if they want inclusion, that they'd have the topic discussed where everyone could actually find the thread, so that, you know, more people can be involved and have a discussion, but it does serve a purpose sending the topic to the off topic subsection, that is, if you don't want a healthy, open-minded discussion on the topic, you simply, bury it....alas,  I get it, with the busy season, ( is there ever an off time? serious question) I understand that you're overwhelmed with your duties as moderators, monitoring the threads to ensure everyone obeys the posting rules, that it's a never ending task.....

 

I really thought you'd like my illegal vs the republican reference, it kinda fits and is true, and, it was funny

 

looks like it's time to abandon this sinking titanic and except the fact that the rotoworld forum ( I'd include the community, but there IS interest within) will not accommodate the dynasty folk with their own subsection and move on. You can rescind my posting privileges as my only posts will be about the desire for a dynasty platform and the lack of open mindedness regarding the topic.....thank you for your time 

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On 7/27/2018 at 4:39 PM, tonycpsu said:

 

I have no insight at all into the bean-counting at the RW mothership, but I do think you're making a lot of assumptions about the benefits that will follow from creating new forums.  Expanding the number of forums doesn't necessarily expand the quality or quantity of conversation, and could in fact have the opposite effect.  Folks in the MiLB forum often get upset that their posts there don't get enough traffic, and become irate when we nuke a thread in Baseball Talk because the player hasn't been called up yet.  I can imagine a similar thing happening with "Juan Soto 2018 Dynasty Outlook" -- a handful of dynasty die hards would check in, but over time, I think it would lead to less discussion because it's spread across multiple threads.

 

 

There is nothing stopping you from using Baseball Talk to discuss both, other than (a) your reluctance to type five additional words when speaking in dynasty-specific terms and (b) your disappointment that dynasty isn't more popular than redraft.  People can (and do) talk productively about both here -- it just requires being specific about context, and I don't think that's a lot to ask.

 

 

I think it’s a little disingenuous to say that I’m reluctant to type those 5 extra words to specify that my post pertains to dynasty leagues, and that if I just do that everything will be fine. 

 

As you’ve stated several times, the majority of posters come to the forums to talk redraft, so even posting dynasty focused content muddies up the existing threads and leads to lots of unecessary and frankly unproductive debating and arguing. The Soto thread is a good example of that (again). 

 

It would be nice if there was a forum where the context was already understood and you didn’t have to:

 

1) sift through pages and pages of posts that focused only on the outlook for a players’ next few weeks or months,

 

and/or

 

2) constantly reiterate that your post doesn’t pertain to the majority of posters, but rather a minority of posters who have no other place to congregate and discuss. 

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there are two sides to this discussion, and both have compelling merits.

as a fan, and for selfish reasons, i would love to see a dynasty section. it would focus the discussion on more appropriate topics between posters, instead of commingling  discussions that may be based on different league construction. it would also provide benefit to the readers to know that the topic/posts they're reading is directly related to the subject of interest (keeper/dynasty points of view).

as a realist, it's probably not in the best interest of rotoworld forums to accommodate an additional section that caters to a subset of league configurations. where does it end? a section for OBP leagues, H2H, rotisserie, etc? not to mention, the extra moderating, which as discussed earlier is donated by those who have the time/ability to do so. (i.e. free labor). i don't always agree with the moderators' opinions, but at the same time, i don't want to reduce their input by spreading them thinner than they already are. hall monitors are a necessity for civilized discussion and adding more responsibility to their current workload for minimal gain (pleasing a smaller group of posters) seems unreasonable.

the baseball forums are split into logical subsections, major league and minor league. adding subsections based on current popular league construction would be a never ending attempt at catering, and probably not produce much in the way of forward progress for discussions among posters. some folks would benefits, no doubt, but the big picture benefit would be minimal i'm afraid.

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On 7/28/2018 at 10:08 PM, mjb03003 said:

As you’ve stated several times, the majority of posters come to the forums to talk redraft, so even posting dynasty focused content muddies up the existing threads and leads to lots of unecessary and frankly unproductive debating and arguing. The Soto thread is a good example of that (again). 

 

No, it's really not a good example at all, as I pointed out above:

 

Quote

the discussion that led to this in the Soto thread derailed things because people disagree on whether you should target the next 1-3 years, or have a longer time horizon.  We would still have to shut this down in a Juan Soto thread in the dynasty section, because the issue has less to do with Soto's production and more to do with how people prefer to play.

 

If this discussion is going to work, then you need to at least respond to my counterpoints instead of going back to premises that I've already supplied contradictory evidence against.
 

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12 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

 

No, it's really not a good example at all, as I pointed out above:

 

 

If this discussion is going to work, then you need to at least respond to my counterpoints instead of going back to premises that I've already supplied contradictory evidence against.
 

 

 

If you're saying the mods would feel the need to shut down a thread whenever the conversation shifted toward strategy (even if it was in a forum that was specifically dedicated to keepers/dynasty), then you're right, a dynasty section would not add anything to the boards.  

 

It's hard to discuss a player through the lens of keepers/dynasty leagues if the conversation has to be about a player's current production. 

 

The successful dynasty forums I've visited on other sites allow for strategy discussion because frankly keepers/dynasty leagues require higher level of strategy, and the people who enjoy playing that format typically enjoy that type of discussion. 

 

So my point is this: if you were to create a separate forum where it was understood that strategy/player valuation/trade talk would be allowed, because it is inherent and fundamental to dynasty discussions, then I think it would actually be a space where the previous Soto discussion could have been left alone (i.e. LESS work/intervention for Mods). 

 

I'm not saying it would instantly become hugely popular, and it might be more work for the already underappreciated mods, but I think it would definitely be a value add in the long run because the overlap between redraft and dynasty discussion is currently taking away from the boards (in my opinion) not adding to them. 

 

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2 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

If you're saying the mods would feel the need to shut down a thread whenever the conversation shifted toward strategy (even if it was in a forum that was specifically dedicated to keepers/dynasty), then you're right, a dynasty section would not add anything to the boards.

 

It's hard to discuss a player through the lens of keepers/dynasty leagues if the conversation has to be about a player's current production. 

 

I think you're conflating dynasty outlook and strategy in these two sentences.

 

An example of what I would call dynasty outlook commentary would be (just a made up example here):

 

I expect Juan Soto will be a 4th round value in 2019 factoring in some amount of a sophomore slump and the league catching up to him, but I think he ultimately settles in as a 1st round talent in 2020 and beyond.  Therefore, I'm comfortable overpaying in inaugural dynasty drafts next season for the upside, and am willing to buy high right now, knowing he's going to cost a fortune.

 

This is a (once again, hypothetical) comment that zeroes in on the player's outlook in a dynasty context.

 

What actually happened in the Soto thread was an argument about whether one should play for 3-5 years down the line at all -- irrespective of Soto's production.  That's something we'd kill as off-topic in a hypothetical Juan Soto 2018 Dynasty Outlook thread, because the same arguments about whether to go short vs. medium vs. long-term will pop up in any number of threads, and overwhelm the discussion of the players in question.  This is similar to how we kill "to pay for closers or not" in the closers thread, or anything pertaining to punting categories when that strategy comes up in players who often go along with a punt strategy (e.g. Gallo to punt average.)

 

So yeah, I think we'd still have to keep people from getting too far away from a player's individual outlook in a dynasty forum -- the only benefit would be nobody would have to  say that they're talking in terms of dynasty value, but as osb_tensor suggests, there would be other format-specific things that would creep in there as well.

 

35 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

The successful dynasty forums I've visited on other sites allow for strategy discussion because frankly keepers/dynasty leagues require higher level of strategy, and the people who enjoy playing that format typically enjoy that type of discussion. 

 

Which forums?  Do they have individual outlook threads?

 

37 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

So my point is this: if you were to create a separate forum where it was understood that strategy/player valuation/trade talk would be allowed, because it is inherent and fundamental to dynasty discussions, then I think it would actually be a space where the previous Soto discussion could have been left alone (i.e. LESS work/intervention for Mods). 

 

I don't think you're fully understanding what the impact of just letting people talk about whatever they want in outlook threads would be.  Perhaps this is because you've become so accustomed to not even seeing most of the stuff that gets killed from those threads on a regular basis.  When you express concern  about having to scroll through pages and pages of redraft-focused stuff, well, I think with a dynasty forum that's moderated as you seem to be suggesting here, you'd be focused on pages and pages of people arguing over strategy, format-specific context to their player valuations, etc.  And if "trade talk" here means talk about peoples' individual trade offers, well, then you open up the flood gates for Bench Coach stuff, and believe me that would not be a good thing if you don't like scrolling through posts that aren't relevant to you.

 

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24 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

I think you're conflating dynasty outlook and strategy in these two sentences.

 

I'm trying to point out how dynasty outlook and strategy tend to overlap in a way that can be informative and productive. 

 

24 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

What actually happened in the Soto thread was an argument about whether one should play for 3-5 years down the line at all -- irrespective of Soto's production.  That's something we'd kill as off-topic in a hypothetical Juan Soto 2018 Dynasty Outlook thread, because the same arguments about whether to go short vs. medium vs. long-term will pop up in any number of threads, and overwhelm the discussion of the players in question.

 

I don't think that type of conversation is necessarily bad, and in an environment dedicated to dynasty, those discussions are still informative and productive. Is Soto (to continue the example) an ideal target if you're playing for the next 1-3 years? Or is he more valuable if you're working on a longer-term build? That's how the debate/discussion in the Soto 2018 Outlook thread started, and looking back on it I don't see why it needed to be curbed because it did all seems to be circling back to Soto and his outlook/ranking moving forward. 

 

24 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

So yeah, I think we'd still have to keep people from getting too far away from a player's individual outlook in a dynasty forum -- the only benefit would be nobody would have to  say that they're talking in terms of dynasty value,

 

It's annoying that you keep coming back to this bolded part. You're boiling all of my posts/points down to not wanting to type 5 words, which is unfair and simply not what my position is based on. What you're doing is telling me that the keeper/dynasty forum i'm suggesting (in the feedback section mind you) would be moderated exactly the same as the main forum, so there would be no benefit. What I'm saying is that it could/would/should be moderated differently to allow for the different type of discussion/content. I understand if you want me to just drop it, but don't pretend to be interested in hearing me out and understanding my perspective if you're going to keep boiling down my post to "you just don't want to specify that you're talking in terms of dynasty."  

 

24 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

Which forums?  Do they have individual outlook threads?

 

DLF and FootballGuys mostly, and yes. 

 

25 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

well, I think with a dynasty forum that's moderated as you seem to be suggesting here, you'd be focused on pages and pages of people arguing over strategy, format-specific context to their player valuations, etc.  And if "trade talk" here means talk about peoples' individual trade offers, well, then you open up the flood gates for Bench Coach stuff, and believe me that would not be a good thing if you don't like scrolling through posts that aren't relevant to you.

 

Now i'm confused, because all along you've been saying there wasn't really enough demand for a keeper/dynasty section, and now you're saying there would be pages and pages of posts and people arguing. Which is it?

 

Also, people need to provide context for their redraft leagues (10 team? 12 team? 5x5? Roto? h2h? OBP or Average? QS or W? etc....) in order for the current forum to work. Why would it suddenly be a problem to do the same in a keeper/dynasty forum? 

 

Finally, "trade talk" in a keeper/dynasty context is a big part of why people show up on message boards. I can't speak for all keeper/dynasty enthusiasts, but since it's much harder to determine player values when the length of a player's career and their future production is unknown, I enjoy learning about how other owners/leagues value certain players. Most of the time you can pull a useful nugget or two out of a post, even if the league structure/context is different.

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On 7/30/2018 at 5:36 PM, mjb03003 said:

Now i'm confused, because all along you've been saying there wasn't really enough demand for a keeper/dynasty section, and now you're saying there would be pages and pages of posts and people arguing. Which is it?

 

These are not incompatible statements.  In the first case, I was talking about a dynasty forum that's moderated according to our current standards, where talk is expected to be focused on the player's fantasy outlook in general, without a lot of allowance for people bringing in Bench Coach content, posting trade offers they're thinking about or have acted on, etc.  In the second case, I was referring to a dynasty forum that would be modded in a much more laissez-faire manner as you seem to want, where it seems like the only rule is that it has to pertain to dynasty leagues.

 

I went ahead and took a look at the forums you say you want to emulate, and maybe I'm biased, but I do not see a lot to like over there.  At DLF, they ostensibly have some sort of separation between "Football Talk" (which they call "Dynasty League Discussion") and Assistant Coach (which they call "Dynasty League Advice") but the threads in the former are all over the map, with no designated outlook threads as far as I can tell, plenty of AC content.  If I want to see all the news relevant to a player, I'm looking at a dozen different threads instead of a single thread per season.  Just a total mess.

 

Meanwhile, Football Guys doesn't seem to have a separate dynasty forum that I can tell, just kind of a convention of making outlook threads with "Dynasty" somewhere in the name...  Except there are also "Dynasty and Redraft" threads as well, and some "Official [player]" threads which I assume are redraft..  So now if I'm interested in dynasty, I have to follow the dynasty thread and also the "Dynasty and redraft" thread...

 

If you can shed some light on exactly how any of these reflects your vision of what we should do here at RW I'd appreciate it, but keep in mind that fantasy football is many times more popular than fantasy baseball, and so far I've been speaking from a baseball context since that's the season we're currently in.  Maybe this might make more sense to do with football where there's a much larger audience, but I play a lot less football myself (and no dynasty football) so I'm probably not the best to address that aspect.

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4 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

If you can shed some light on exactly how any of these reflects your vision of what we should do here at RW I'd appreciate it,

 

You asked me which other forums I visited that had dynasty specific forums/threads for individual players. I told you. I wasn't holding those up as shining examples  of dynasty forums that RW should aspire to. The whole point of suggesting separate dynasty forums in each sports section would be to create a better dynasty fantasy forum than exists elsewhere by building on the strengths of the RW Forums. I obviously like these forums and have been posting here for many years...

 

Now you're asking how they reflect my vision of what we should do here at RW. I feel like that's what I've been doing in all of my posts, but I'll restate it. Dynasty discussion involves much more strategy. Comparing and contrasting player's outlooks, discussing roster construction, talking about trade value, and many things that may junk up a redraft or single-season outlook thread flow naturally in a dynasty thread. It would be nice to have a place where that sort of talk was permitted within a player thread, as long as it still relates back to a player and is valuable to the community. When you aren't allowed to have a dynasty community, and when the thread is restricted to only a player's production, that becomes very challenging. 

 

Your point seems to be that RW Forums can't support a dynasty section without suffering from a drop in overall quality/user experience. I don't necessarily agree, but if that's an opinion that is shared by all of the powers at be, I suppose we are at an impasse. I've done my best to state my case in a respectful manner.  

 

I didn't limit this discussion to dynasty baseball because the thread is about adding dynasty sections for all sports, which I would obviously welcome. Football is the most popular so it may make sense to start there, but I think if it can work with football it can work with baseball. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, mjb03003 said:

I don't necessarily agree, but if that's an opinion that is shared by all of the powers at be, I suppose we are at an impasse. I've done my best to state my case in a respectful manner.  

 

I do greatly appreciate the civil manner in which you're bringing this to us, but I do think we might just have different views of how this would go.  Ultimately, the mod team would be signing up for an unknown quantity of additional work to make the new sub-forum successful, so we'd need a healthy majority of the team to think it's worth doing to go forward.  I'm just one member, and one who doesn't spend nearly as much time on the football side, so if you'd like to tag in any other mods, feel free to do so.

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As much as I love dynasty formats, I don't want another dynasty forum. 

If you are into fantasy baseball enough to really be into dynasty then you probably have a good idea on how to value guys over the long term. It doesn't take a seasoned vet to tell you a guy like Soto, Acuna, or Bregman would be a strong dynasty asset. It also doesn't take a rocket surgeon to tell you that Joey Votto probably doesn't carry much weight in dynasty formats due to his age. 
 

I feel like a separate forum for this will only spread the player discussion out (having to go more places for one similar topic) and I don't think it would generate enough traffic to make the juice worth the squeeze. 

 

If anything, I'd like the current year player threads to loosen up a little talking about dynasty value. Maybe it's just my perception that it's kind of taboo to discuss. I think this is partly due to guys posting something like "I'm not optimistic on Joey Votto being a strong asset here on out. I just flipped him for Matt Olson." or something. The comments get deleted with something like "removed bench coach commentary" or whatever. However, I think seeing things like that are VERY relevant to a players current year value. I don't think the discussions should evolve around the players production/potential production, but also give context to how guys are valued in general. Seeing things like that may speak out to an Olson owner and he may think, hell, maybe I can get Votto (if he wants to), or a Votto owner may have thought he had no value in a dynasty but now sees he can get a young 1B with some upside. The thing that you wouldn't want, IMO, is a runaway topic discussing if that was a good trade or not. That's what should be off limits. Or let it go, as long as it doesn't get carried away. IDK. But I'd like to see the player threads loosen up for a bit to discuss how they've seen a player get valued in their league, and not just revolve around the guys current performance. 

 

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