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2018 Hall of Fame voting thread

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25 minutes ago, AnonymousRob said:

You're really bad at answering questions and seem to have zero interest in an actual discussion. I wish you the best of luck with your posts and goal in here. 

I’m happy to answer (though it appears @unknownrotoguru Did already and you just didn’t like his answers?)

A ) Bonds was better than his juiced peers. 

B )  Bonds was not the only one taking steroids. 

 

Nobody denies any of this. I’m just not sure what the point of it is. He was the best of the cheaters? My two issues- 

1) “He wasn’t the only one!” 

I’m a middle school teacher. This is literally the 12 year-old response to getting caught doing something they shouldn’t be doing. And my explanation is always, “If I get pulled over speeding, I don’t get to say ‘I wasn’t the only one speeding.’ It doesn’t matter. I’m responsible for my actions. Period.” 

I’m not sure why this needs to be explained to adults. 

2) There were some who didn’t cheat. Of course we don’t know for certain who didn’t or who did. But we know some who did. And their cheating directly affected others. Was Fred McGriff a HOFer if not for the surrounding offensive explosion? Was Kenny Lofton a HOFer if not for the surrounding offensive explosions? Certainly there are clean players who were negatively affected by these cheaters (including contracts at the time). 

To me the argument is far more nuanced than “Bonds was the best of all the cheaters!” 

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21 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

I’m happy to answer (though it appears @unknownrotoguru Did already and you just didn’t like his answers?)

A ) Bonds was better than his juiced peers. 

B )  Bonds was not the only one taking steroids. 

 

Nobody denies any of this. I’m just not sure what the point of it is. He was the best of the cheaters? My two issues- 

1) “He wasn’t the only one!” 

I’m a middle school teacher. This is literally the 12 year-old response to getting caught doing something they shouldn’t be doing. And my explanation is always, “If I get pulled over speeding, I don’t get to say ‘I wasn’t the only one speeding.’ It doesn’t matter. I’m responsible for my actions. Period.” 

I’m not sure why this needs to be explained to adults. 

2) There were some who didn’t cheat. Of course we don’t know for certain who didn’t or who did. But we know some who did. And their cheating directly affected others. Was Fred McGriff a HOFer if not for the surrounding offensive explosion? Was Kenny Lofton a HOFer if not for the surrounding offensive explosions? Certainly there are clean players who were negatively affected by these cheaters (including contracts at the time). 

To me the argument is far more nuanced than “Bonds was the best of all the cheaters!” 

Thanks, Sliders. Baseball is a bit different than teaching 12 year olds. There's some morality you need to teach there. Baseball has long ago established that isn't something that comes into play. For better or for worse, it isn't a factor in determining HoF eligibility. If we want to make it a factor at some point in the future, fine. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking it's ever been a part.

Yes, being the best of the cheaters in an era of cheaters is telling. Hall of Fame shouldn't always be about the best of one era compared to the best of another era. Ruth is probably the greatest of all time, but I have serious doubts about his ability to hit a modern Kershaw or Chapman. But it wouldn't be fair to compare them, as the eras were totally different. Bonds played in an era known as the steroid era. Players took gobs of roids. Players were putting up video game numbers. That's why I'm not eager to put an amazing player like Ortiz in the hall despite him ranking in the top 20 for career homers. Because numbers were inflated, so you can't just be really good compared to players of yesteryear - you need to dominate your peers. And Bonds did just that. Looking through the lens of the era, I completely understand turning away several players from the hall because their performance compared to their peers was good, but not legendary. But Bonds was an absolute beast. Not just one year, like Brady Anderson. Every year. The guy was a human cheat code even in the midst of an era of cheaters. If Bonds doesn't get in, nobody from the entire era should go in and we can just pretend it never happened.

 

I know we want to pretend the era never existed, but it did. And I'm pretty damned sure baseball not only knew, they didn't care. No, scratch that. I'm pretty sure they cared and wanted it to continue. After all, the steroid era probably saved baseball. Baseball knew about this and did nothing but turn a blind eye and profit. Now they want to pretend they've always taken the high road and burn those who they knowingly profited from? Screw that. 

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