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Tarik Cohen 2018 Outlook

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4 minutes ago, ajs723 said:

You're telling me 5'7" and 200 pounds can be an elite NFL back, but 5'6" one-eighty something is just too small?

 

Frame and body-type. 

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4 minutes ago, ajs723 said:

 

Well firstly, we were talking about MJD. Just saying to make sure we keep the argument straight. MJD is built like a brick-****house. 

 

But Warrick Dunn is I believe 3 inches taller? Probably had a bit bigger playing weight? Not exactly the same. 

 

But look, you wanna believe he can run between the tackles, more power to you my guy. But even in his inside zone opportunities in 2017 he seemed to bounce it. You wanna believe he's the same as some of the guys you listed and not smaller, more power to you. I love the Bears and I love Tarik, but let's be real about the skill-set. He's not a three-down back. I don't even think he's a gadget player. I think he's better than that and hate that terminology. But he's not a between-the-tackles runner. You can run inside zone with him occasionally because it can work and can keep defenses off-balance but you're not going to see it often. 

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Posted (edited)

In the history of the NFL, you point to small 2 RBs that had reasonable success and MY argument is falling apart... lol... and both guys you referenced were bigger than Cohen.

 

 

Edited by Winky

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1 minute ago, taobball said:

 

Well firstly, we were talking about MJD. Just saying to make sure we keep the argument straight. MJD is built like a brick-****house. 

 

But Warrick Dunn is I believe 3 inches taller? Probably had a bit bigger playing weight? Not exactly the same. 

 

But look, you wanna believe he can run between the tackles, more power to you my guy. But even in his inside zone opportunities in 2017 he seemed to bounce it. You wanna believe he's the same as some of the guys you listed and not smaller, more power to you. I love the Bears and I love Tarik, but let's be real about the skill-set. He's not a three-down back. I don't even think he's a gadget player. I think he's better than that and hate that terminology. But he's not a between-the-tackles runner. You can run inside zone with him occasionally because it can work and can keep defenses off-balance but you're not going to see it often. 

It's off topic, but I'm not even talking about Cohen. I'm arguing against the case that anyone can be too small to succeed in the NFL. 

 

I cite multiple examples of successful NFL RBs who are roughly the same size, and I'm told, "it's not size, it's frame and body type". So I cite an example of a guy with the exact same body type, and it still doesn't count. Dunn was a gnat, he played at like 5'8", 180, and he got 200+ carries per year. 

 

Diminutiveness in and of itself is not a disqualifier. Talent rises. 

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1 minute ago, Winky said:

In the history of the NFL, you point to 2 RBs that had reasonable success... and MY argument is falling apart... lol

 

 

.... Yes. Imagine I say a black person can't be president. You point out Obama, and I say "in the history of America, you point out one black person that became president, and my argument is falling apart... lol."

 

If I give an argument that disproves your claim, your argument, by definition, falls apart. If you want to argue that Cohen has less of a chance of seeing a high volume of work in his career, then I'd probably agree with you. But your "there's small, and there's too small" claim is empirically incorrect. 

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Just now, ajs723 said:

It's off topic, but I'm not even talking about Cohen. I'm arguing against the case that anyone can be too small to succeed in the NFL. 

 

I cite multiple examples of successful NFL RBs who are roughly the same size, and I'm told, "it's not size, it's frame and body type". So I cite an example of a guy with the exact same body type, and it still doesn't count. Dunn was a gnat, he played at like 5'8", 180, and he got 200+ carries per year. 

 

Diminutiveness in and of itself is not a disqualifier. Talent rises. 

 

Well of course if we're not talking about Cohen it is literally impossible for me to determine the exact extent of "too small." Cohen is too small. That's of relevance. 

 

Body-type is for Running Backs more important than size to me. MJD has just an incredible frame for the position. Cohen's small. You can tell he's small. He's gamebred and believes he could run the tackles but personally I don't think he could. Dunn could but Cohen's not Dunn's size. If there's a Dunn sized running back in a power-5 school as a full time RB starter, that player I would be interested to see as a full time back theoretically. We're not talking about that player. 

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1 minute ago, taobball said:

 

Well of course if we're not talking about Cohen it is literally impossible for me to determine the exact extent of "too small." Cohen is too small. That's of relevance. 

 

Body-type is for Running Backs more important than size to me. MJD has just an incredible frame for the position. Cohen's small. You can tell he's small. He's gamebred and believes he could run the tackles but personally I don't think he could. Dunn could but Cohen's not Dunn's size. If there's a Dunn sized running back in a power-5 school as a full time RB starter, that player I would be interested to see as a full time back theoretically. We're not talking about that player. 

Rookie year Dion Lewis. https://goo.gl/images/97LE2Q 

 

That frame doesn't look any bigger than Cohen.

 

Look, I can put up examples all day, but the point is simply that it's intellectually lazy to look at any NFL RB and conclude, "Well, he's small, he'll never be able to handle a big workload. End of analysis." 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Careful using the word lazy... 

Lazy analysts campaign only to leverage the extreme examples to "prove" their points.

Edited by Winky

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ajs723 said:

Rookie year Dion Lewis. https://goo.gl/images/97LE2Q 

 

That frame doesn't look any bigger than Cohen.

 

Look, I can put up examples all day, but the point is simply that it's intellectually lazy to look at any NFL RB and conclude, "Well, he's small, he'll never be able to handle a big workload. End of analysis." 

 

 

 

 

And it's intellectually lazy and unfair to take everything I and everyone else has said and break it down to your final quotation. Don't cheapen this argument. Do you think I watched Cohen on a scale and said "Nope." No. I've watched him play football. I've watched him run, watched how he develops with plays, I've watched a ton of Cohen. Probably more than you. I've seen every Bears game so certainly not less than you. He's not a tackles runner. 

 

You want to keep posting pictures like it's ESPN the Body Issue go ahead. To act like that's the "intellectual" stance though is kinda hilarious. You're right that there's small players that are successful in more roles. Cohen's smaller than most of those players, and isn't built nor does he seem to instinctually act like a between the tackles RB. So you're wrong in this case. 

Edited by taobball
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5 minutes ago, ajs723 said:

Rookie year Dion Lewis. https://goo.gl/images/97LE2Q 

 

That frame doesn't look any bigger than Cohen.

 

Look, I can put up examples all day, but the point is simply that it's intellectually lazy to look at any NFL RB and conclude, "Well, he's small, he'll never be able to handle a big workload. End of analysis." 

 

 

when has Dion Lewis carried a full workload?  

 

Last season was 180 carries and that was far and away his healthiest most consistent season.    Not seeing how this helps your argument here Kimosabe 

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7 minutes ago, Impreza178 said:

when has Dion Lewis carried a full workload?  

 

Last season was 180 carries and that was far and away his healthiest most consistent season.    Not seeing how this helps your argument here Kimosabe 

He had 212 touches last year. That's a top 20 workload. 

 

Again, if your position is that there's a certain height/weight/frame threshold that disqualifies a player from being able to succeed as a high volume RB, I'm going to tell you that you're objectively wrong. That's all I'm saying. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ajs723 said:

Again, if your position is that there's a certain height/weight/frame threshold that disqualifies a player from being able to succeed as a high volume RB, I'm going to tell you that you're objectively wrong. That's all I'm saying. 

 

My position is that Tarik Cohen is too small... nice story, but, ultimately, too small.

Dion Lewis, Darren Sproles, Danny Woodhead, Warrick Dunn... none of those guys are Tarik Cohen.

Your argument about what other people have done is loosely relevant, but not convincing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Winky

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1 minute ago, Winky said:

 

My position, fwiw, is that Tarik Cohen is too small.

 

 

This is my last attempt.

 

My position (the axiomatic truth) is that there's no such thing as too small. Not for a RB, not for a QB, not for a baseball player, basketball player, etc. 

 

Someday there could be a 5'5" 175 NFL RB who runs a sub 4.1 forty, has moves that make Barry Sanders look slow, and turns into a perennial All-Pro RB. 

 

Size can be an important variable, but to consider it a death knell, in and of itself, is nonsense. At any position, in any sport, elite talent can overcome lack of size.

 

I'll say it again, elite talent can overcome lack of size. 

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Posted (edited)

 

My new position is that Tarik Cohen is not an elite talent.

Edited by Winky
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9 minutes ago, Winky said:

 

My new position is that Tarik Cohen is not an elite talent.

He’s pretty damn good....around the edges and in space.    Being small doesn’t necessarily preclude one from running through the middle but that’s not what Tarik does

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21 minutes ago, Winky said:

 

My new position is that Tarik Cohen is not an elite talent.

There ya go. That's fine! I'm not sure if I agree or not, but that's a totally valid opinion. 

 

Phew. 

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Maybe he is an elite talent but that doesn't mean he'll ever be an elite RB. Watch any NFL draft. They throw the word "elite" around like it's nothing. 

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1 hour ago, Winky said:

In the history of the NFL, you point to small 2 RBs that had reasonable success and MY argument is falling apart... lol... and both guys you referenced were bigger than Cohen.

 

 

 

And Dunn shared the backfield with Alstott who did the heavy lifting.

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13 minutes ago, petekrum said:

 

And Dunn shared the backfield with Alstott who did the heavy lifting.

And in comes howard

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Nobody is confusing The Human Joystick with Ironhead Heyward. Just saying he is a good enough runner to handle running inside at times if the Bears want to try and keep defenses honest. Others have done it @ well below avg size with degrees of success.  No, up the gut behind two TE's isn't a recipe for success for Cohen.

 

Yes Tarik tried bouncing to often his rookie year looking for the Big play too often. Experience will break him of that habit. Learn to take the 2-3 yd and hope to pop the Big play coming out the other side where play is designed to go.

 

Not expecting 20 carries but 10 or so with 4-5 catches gets him into RB2 range in PPR. 

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6 hours ago, Impreza178 said:

 

Didnt you Cohennites learn ya nothin’ last season? 

We already knew what it took the Bears longer to learn... Fox & Loggains had no clue how to run a modern offense. Definitely didn't know how to utilize one of their most dangerous weapons .

 

Those wingnuts were into running the winged T or the Flying wedge instead of the spread offense. They ran an offense for the '80s...the 1880's ! 

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On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:54 PM, howlin' 2 said:

Nobody is confusing The Human Joystick with Ironhead Heyward. Just saying he is a good enough runner to handle running inside at times if the Bears want to try and keep defenses honest. Others have done it @ well below avg size with degrees of success.  No, up the gut behind two TE's isn't a recipe for success for Cohen.

 

Yes Tarik tried bouncing to often his rookie year looking for the Big play too often. Experience will break him of that habit. Learn to take the 2-3 yd and hope to pop the Big play coming out the other side where play is designed to go.

 

Not expecting 20 carries but 10 or so with 4-5 catches gets him into RB2 range in PPR. 

4-5 catches puts him on pace for 64-80 end of season.  He had 53 in a full season last year.

 

3 per game is a more realistic average unless you see a concrete reason for more targets this year.

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27 minutes ago, Experienced Rookie said:

4-5 catches puts him on pace for 64-80 end of season.  He had 53 in a full season last year.

 

3 per game is a more realistic average unless you see a concrete reason for more targets this year.

 

Listening to Nagy talk about Cohen would indicate he might see more than 3 catches per game.  

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