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NBA Playoffs Talk

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22 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

I've been wondering this for a while but am I the only one that gets a "Westbrook +" sort of vibe from Lebron? I'm sure Lue is somewhat to blame for it but Westbrook gets so much crap for not making his teammates better because he is too ball dominant not allowing them to get into a rhythm. I mean, assists at face value are one of the most overrated stats in the game. I always thought Westbrook was nowhere near top 5 because of this (as also indicative by the Jazz series). Obviously, Lebron is far better than Westbrook but he seems to be falling into the same category this season for sure.

 

The team isn't bad. Clarkson was a 15 PPG player and Hood was at 17 PPG before joining Cleveland. Hill has also been a double digit scorer his entier career Hell, Love was a 25+ PPG double double machine until he was forced into this utterly pathetic role Cleveland has him in. Prior to joining Cleveland, that's 3 guys at 15+ PPG and one of them at 25+ PPG. When you are expected to stand around all game and take a jumper once in a while it would be hard to be interested and get in the flow.

 

More so Lue fault than Lebron. I’ve posed this question before and even asked like the reporter last night (who happened to irk Tyronn Lue) why is Rodney Hood still in the rotation? Nobody has an answer for that. You right, when they were on other teams they have been productive. The problem comes in that, when Lebron goes to the bench the usual suspects in the floor is (Hill, Clarkson, Hood, Green, Thompson)

 

they have ave all choked. I think the interesting part about this is in game 1 Lebron doesn’t have a good game and neither does love and (Hill, JR & Korver) combine for 14 points total!

 

Then in game 2. (Hill, JR & Thompson) combining for 11 points with Lebron posting a 43 point Triple double. Hood has 2 and Korver has 11. 

 

The others arent stepping up. When Lebron has an off night, nobody else steps up, when Lebron is hot, nobody else steps up. 

 

Watch the Warriors or the Rockets. Usually it’s either (Draymond, Klay, Curry, Durant) 3 of those 4 have great games and the other two have mediocre games. Rockets (CP3, Harden, Eric Gordon, Capela) 2 of those guys go off and the rest can have mediocre games. And it’s the coach too, because the Rockets play more ISO- heavy than the Cavs and still get the “others” involved (Ryan Anderson, Ariza, Tucker)

 

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14 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

More so Lue fault than Lebron. I’ve posed this question before and even asked like the reporter last night (who happened to irk Tyronn Lue) why is Rodney Hood still in the rotation? Nobody has an answer for that. You right, when they were on other teams they have been productive. The problem comes in that, when Lebron goes to the bench the usual suspects in the floor is (Hill, Clarkson, Hood, Green, Thompson)

 

they have ave all choked. I think the interesting part about this is in game 1 Lebron doesn’t have a good game and neither does love and (Hill, JR & Korver) combine for 14 points total!

 

Then in game 2. (Hill, JR & Thompson) combining for 11 points with Lebron posting a 43 point Triple double. Hood has 2 and Korver has 11. 

 

The others arent stepping up. When Lebron has an off night, nobody else steps up, when Lebron is hot, nobody else steps up. 

 

Watch the Warriors or the Rockets. Usually it’s either (Draymond, Klay, Curry, Durant) 3 of those 4 have great games and the other two have mediocre games. Rockets (CP3, Harden, Eric Gordon, Capela) 2 of those guys go off and the rest can have mediocre games. And it’s the coach too, because the Rockets play more ISO- heavy than the Cavs and still get the “others” involved (Ryan Anderson, Ariza, Tucker)

 

It’s not like the bench has to play without Lebron though. It’s almost never that they have to go double digit minutes without him. Plus, in game one for example his +\- was more than double in the negative compared to anyone else. Obviously players aren’t performing but these were good players before. It’s not like putting on a different jersey made them worse so the question is what did?

 

I personally think it’s roughly 50/50. Lebron picked Lue because Blatt wouldn’t let him run the show. It’s hard to know because no one knows what goes on behind closed doors but it seems like Lebron and Westbrook both rather be the system than run an offense in a legitimate system. It’s very good for personal success but quite terrible for competing especially in the playoffs. If Lebron let a legitimate coach coach him his stats would be a little down but he would also have a few more rings making the Jordan debate legitimate.

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10 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

It’s not like the bench has to play without Lebron though. It’s almost never that they have to go double digit minutes without him. Plus, in game one for example his +\- was more than double in the negative compared to anyone else. Obviously players aren’t performing but these were good players before. It’s not like putting on a different jersey made them worse so the question is what did?

 

I personally think it’s roughly 50/50. Lebron picked Lue because Blatt wouldn’t let him run the show. It’s hard to know because no one knows what goes on behind closed doors but it seems like Lebron and Westbrook both rather be the system than run an offense in a legitimate system. It’s very good for personal success but quite terrible for competing especially in the playoffs. If Lebron let a legitimate coach coach him his stats would be a little down but he would also have a few more rings making the Jordan debate legitimate.

 

Blatt being a legitimate coach is suspect. He was well-regarded but hasn’t received another job since even though Bulholdozer and the coach (some no name) for the Suns are hired ASAP. 

 

With that said, a legitimate coach might not be in this position. Whatever Cleveland/Lebron has worked because he has been to the 7 years in a row. Ignore the noise (East is weak, blah blah blah) he has been there 7 years in a row with his team’s always being in the Top 3 in the east besides this year. Was Spoelstra a legitimate coach? That’s up for debate because there was an argument for his dismissal too because he was terrible and has poor planning, but of course the 23 win streak happened and all was forgotten. 

 

The coach argument always has issues. Would a D’Antoni, Gentry, Van Gundy style coach work in Cleveland? Maybe, maybe not. All those guys mentioned have never been to the finals (Jeff has not Stan) and with their current teams, failed to get into the playoffs or underachieved. I’m more of these players can play but they are just taking bad shots. Clarkson for example was the 2nd best 6th man scorer behind Lou williams and hasn’t did s--- since he came to Celeveland. Same with Nance, same with Hood. On a Lebron team, all you need to be able to do is shoot a 3 and make shots. They can’t make shots or make a 3. 

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9 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

Blatt being a legitimate coach is suspect. He was well-regarded but hasn’t received another job since even though Bulholdozer and the coach (some no name) for the Suns are hired ASAP. 

 

With that said, a legitimate coach might not be in this position. Whatever Cleveland/Lebron has worked because he has been to the 7 years in a row. Ignore the noise (East is weak, blah blah blah) he has been there 7 years in a row with his team’s always being in the Top 3 in the east besides this year. Was Spoelstra a legitimate coach? That’s up for debate because there was an argument for his dismissal too because he was terrible and has poor planning, but of course the 23 win streak happened and all was forgotten. 

 

The coach argument always has issues. Would a D’Antoni, Gentry, Van Gundy style coach work in Cleveland? Maybe, maybe not. All those guys mentioned have never been to the finals (Jeff has not Stan) and with their current teams, failed to get into the playoffs or underachieved. I’m more of these players can play but they are just taking bad shots. Clarkson for example was the 2nd best 6th man scorer behind Lou williams and hasn’t did s--- since he came to Celeveland. Same with Nance, same with Hood. On a Lebron team, all you need to be able to do is shoot a 3 and make shots. They can’t make shots or make a 3. 

The problem is when all you are expected to do is make 3s you lose focus often times. Clarkson is a lot better for example moving. The game isn’t very enjoyable for guys to stand around and shoot open 3s once in a while. So everything else slacks. 

 

Spoelstra also has been taking the Heat to the playoffs fairly consistently and they aren’t particularly impressive talent wise so I’d say he’s a good coach. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ber said:

 

There are tons of MJ stories you can read and be the judge by yourself to see what kind of leader MJ is. To make it short most of the stories begin with his insane competitiveness. Dude wants to win and continue winning.

 

When you are the best player of the team, you will get praise and criticized winning or losing. Take Cavs vs Raps for example. Lebron gets praise for sweeping the raps and Derozan gets criticized by getting sweep.

 

Insane individual competitiveness and will to win doesn't necessarily translate into a functionion team dynamic or a winning strategy... Not saying that MJ didn't have leadership qualities, just making a point about those things you mentioned not necessarily being synonymous with being a good leader.

 

As to the latter part. Yeah, you can criticize or credit a player for playing a bigger part in a win or a loss, but it's still wrong to say "he won/lost". You can even see players/analysts on TV use this false expression. Maybe a week ago or so Billups, Rose and Pierce were discussing whether LBJ was playing his best playoff ball of all time... IIRC Billups thought 'yes', whereas Pierce said something like "yes, he's playing well individually, but I'm not ready to say that this is his best playoff performance... if he doesn't win...". That's simply flawed to equate/truncate someone's individual performance to that metric. Theoretically/in reality a single player could put up the best individual performance in the league's history, and still come up short, if his team does not measure up against the opposing team. There's only so much you can do when there's 5 guys on the floor + the coach analyzing things and coming up with strategies/tactics (think of B. Stevens as a current example). Still not boxing or any individual sport. Not even Dirk in '11 or Hakeem '94 did it by themselves, although you could note the extent of their individual effort. People tend to say that Dirk had mere role players at that point, but in reality the team played well. High IQ veterans and a well coached/functioning bunch.

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid
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14 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

The problem is when all you are expected to do is make 3s you lose focus often times. Clarkson is a lot better for example moving. The game isn’t very enjoyable for guys to stand around and shoot open 3s once in a while. So everything else slacks. 

 

Spoelstra also has been taking the Heat to the playoffs fairly consistently and they aren’t particularly impressive talent wise so I’d say he’s a good coach. 

 

Spoelstra also benches his 88 million dollar Center in the playoffs against Embiid, just like Casey benched his 60

million dollar star SG. He might not get the Cash treatment because he has been with the Heat for at least a decade but those type of decisions are problematic. Also signing Dion waiters too.

 

it depends on the player. Clarkson was able to do what he was doing because he was playing on a team who was trying to bottoms out and wasn’t playing for anything. It’s easy to be the leading man on a non playoff team. It’s about what you want to do as a player. Eric Gordon went from a full time starter to coming off the bench being a (spot up shooter) if you want to win change your approach or you will be putting up 30 points a game on a s---y a** team (Devin Booker, D’Angelo Russell, Tyreke Evans). 

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2 hours ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

Spoelstra also benches his 88 million dollar Center in the playoffs against Embiid, just like Casey benched his 60

million dollar star SG. He might not get the Cash treatment because he has been with the Heat for at least a decade but those type of decisions are problematic. Also signing Dion waiters too.

 

it depends on the player. Clarkson was able to do what he was doing because he was playing on a team who was trying to bottoms out and wasn’t playing for anything. It’s easy to be the leading man on a non playoff team. It’s about what you want to do as a player. Eric Gordon went from a full time starter to coming off the bench being a (spot up shooter) if you want to win change your approach or you will be putting up 30 points a game on a s---y a** team (Devin Booker, D’Angelo Russell, Tyreke Evans). 

Whiteside clearly has problems. The signing might be more problematic than the benching. Money isn’t indicative of talent as teams like Cleveland and Portland clearly demonstrate.

 

The problem is borderline forcing players to be pure spot up shooters. That’s an extremely specific niche. It’s not Clarkson and Hoods game nor is it the game of almost anyone. Warriors and Celtics don’t have a single guy who’s main job is to stand in the corner and shoot. Maybe a guy like Young and he doesn’t even play. I’d lose interest to if I was told “Run stand in the corner wait for defense to collapse on the star and shoot.” Hard to get anything going. Warriors have a ton of movement on and off the ball to get guys involved. Team morale and chemistry isn’t something that should be undervalued. Just touching the ball on offense can have you give double effort on defense. I’m sure you know what it’s like to play with a guy at the gym that thinks he’s a Kobe Lebron hybrid. You stop giving a s---. Obviously these guys are paid to ball but in the end it’s no different. Can’t build a team around a player you have to get the player to be around a system. Even Jordan and Kobe were willing to do it.

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11 hours ago, Cdub2k said:

Ayton seems like a no brainer #1 pick for Phoenix. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Pumbaa said:

Doncic should be 1st pick, if they are clever and I doubt it...

 

The Suns org and fans are really split.

 

I would pick Ayton personally. You just can't teach 7'1, 260 lbs and he can shot the 3 to fit this modern NBA too. At least from the corner or top of the key like M.Gasol and B.Lopez had developed.

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All I know is people are gonna have to really reach for Doncic and Ayton in fantasy drafts. 

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Ayton is basically the same size as Dwight Howard was coming out of high school. The difference is Ayton can actually shoot the ball. Howard was stronger but it's really easy to get stronger. 

 

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2 hours ago, Cdub2k said:

Ayton is basically the same size as Dwight Howard was coming out of high school. The difference is Ayton can actually shoot the ball. Howard was stronger but it's really easy to get stronger. 

 

Aytons defense was really questionable at times though.

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8 hours ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

Spoelstra also benches his 88 million dollar Center in the playoffs against Embiid, just like Casey benched his 60

million dollar star SG. He might not get the Cash treatment because he has been with the Heat for at least a decade but those type of decisions are problematic. Also signing Dion waiters too.

 

it depends on the player. Clarkson was able to do what he was doing because he was playing on a team who was trying to bottoms out and wasn’t playing for anything. It’s easy to be the leading man on a non playoff team. It’s about what you want to do as a player. Eric Gordon went from a full time starter to coming off the bench being a (spot up shooter) if you want to win change your approach or you will be putting up 30 points a game on a s---y a** team (Devin Booker, D’Angelo Russell, Tyreke Evans). 

Whiteside got benched because he played like s---. Spoelstra may have had his issues early on when he was like 40, but he rapidly became one of the better coaches in the NBA. Clarkson is a terrible player, for what it's worth. Nance has been a Top 5 player on the Cavs since he got there, his minutes in the playoffs are criminal, but that's another story.

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5 hours ago, Trench Mob said:

The Suns org and fans are really split.

 

I would pick Ayton personally. You just can't teach 7'1, 260 lbs and he can shot the 3 to fit this modern NBA too. At least from the corner or top of the key like M.Gasol and B.Lopez had developed.

I like them both a lot but Ayton is a better prospect, I'd be pretty surprised if the Suns talk themselves into Doncic but it could happen.

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21 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

Whiteside got benched because he played like s---. Spoelstra may have had his issues early on when he was like 40, but he rapidly became one of the better coaches in the NBA. Clarkson is a terrible player, for what it's worth. Nance has been a Top 5 player on the Cavs since he got there, his minutes in the playoffs are criminal, but that's another story.

Nothing is more criminal than J.R Smiths minutes.

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Revenge of the Refs.

 

NBA goal is to string this Rockets vs. Warriors series out to 7, to get a sweep of the Celtics in the finals. Makes sense.

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2 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

Revenge of the Refs.

 

NBA goal is to string this Rockets vs. Warriors series out to 7, to get a sweep of the Celtics in the finals. Makes sense.

Refs?  Looks like someone is Warriors fan and it does not like that Houston is  not going to roll over and surrender.  Fouls are pretty even  (22 vs 20 with 3 min to go).   Maybe if Warriors can hit some 3s it would be much closer?

 

Btw, if Paul is able to play (he was limping while in the game) we got ourselves an awesome series.

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8 minutes ago, Gile Pile said:

Refs?  Looks like someone is Warriors fan and it does not like that Houston is  not going to roll over and surrender.  Fouls are pretty even  (22 vs 20 with 3 min to go).   Maybe if Warriors can hit some 3s it would be much closer?

 

Btw, if Paul is able to play (he was limping while in the game) we got ourselves an awesome series.

 

Not a warriors fan but that one push that resulted in a Tech for Durant was terrible. With that said, I don’t consider two blowout games an awesome series. Unless you like blowouts.

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24 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

Revenge of the Refs.

 

NBA goal is to string this Rockets vs. Warriors series out to 7, to get a sweep of the Celtics in the finals. Makes sense.

refs didn't cause warriors to lose this, rockets were just red hot, and gsw ice cold. it happens

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11 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

Not a warriors fan but that one push that resulted in a Tech for Durant was terrible. With that said, I don’t consider two blowout games an awesome series. Unless you like blowouts.

I don't know what sport you think you're watching, but you can't just shove people out of bounds right in front of the official. The refs didn't cause a 30-point swing, or anything close to it. 

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2 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

I don't know what sport you think you're watching, but you can't just shove people out of bounds right in front of the official. The refs didn't cause a 30-point swing, or anything close to it. 

 

Okay let me try this again since everybody wants a good series from these two respective series. A foul is fine I’m okay with that. A technical for that when Harden pushes off all day and so does Chris Paul is blasphemous to me. Can we have a discussion rather than I get labeled for being a fan. Jeez. 

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1 minute ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

Okay let me try this again since everybody wants a good series from these two respective series. A foul is fine I’m okay with that. A technical for that when Harden pushes off all day and so does Chris Paul is blasphemous to me. Can we have a discussion rather than I get labeled for being a fan. Jeez. 

Let's not try this again, and have a discussion that isn't about 1 completely reasonable foul call in a blowout game. Harden had one of his billion pushoffs earlier in the game on Klay and immediately was called for a foul. It's also not at all the same as Durant being frustrated and pushing someone in the back out of bounds. That's not him trying to see what he can get away with to win a game, that's just him being a bitch and I have 0 issue with him getting a T for it, especially when he's stupid enough to do it with a ref a foot away from it.

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1 hour ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

Not a warriors fan but that one push that resulted in a Tech for Durant was terrible. With that said, I don’t consider two blowout games an awesome series. Unless you like blowouts.

10 to 15 points lead against any of these two teams means nothing with their offensive firepower. Final score shows blowout, but it was much closer until Kerr decided to pull out his starters. If Warriors lose this series, that decision might be one of key factors. Paul was limping, why not attempt one more push to come back?   Btw, Curry seems to be a step slow.  That  CP3 crossover that sent Curry to the floor was awesome  :)

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2 hours ago, Gile Pile said:

10 to 15 points lead against any of these two teams means nothing with their offensive firepower. Final score shows blowout, but it was much closer until Kerr decided to pull out his starters. If Warriors lose this series, that decision might be one of key factors. Paul was limping, why not attempt one more push to come back?   Btw, Curry seems to be a step slow.  That  CP3 crossover that sent Curry to the floor was awesome  :)

Curry 100% doesn’t look like himself similar to 2 years ago. Troubling for Warriors.

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