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24 minutes ago, jstep13 said:

 

 

You mean eliminated GOAT who had just come back from retirement having played 2 months after being off 1.5 years? derp.

He feels he needs to try and taint Jordan to prop up Lebron. You also have to account that Jordan was attempting to play another major sport during that time which means he wasn't even focused on basketball. Jordan would have likely won 8.

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2 hours ago, jstep13 said:

 

 

You mean eliminated GOAT who had just come back from retirement having played 2 months after being off 1.5 years? derp.

 

No, eliminated Bulls. As to your point, what are you saying exactly? That MJ wasn't at his best? Better FG% than during championship runs 3, 4, 5 and 6. More PPG than runs 1, 4 and 5.

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51 minutes ago, Preparing the Kool-Aid said:

 

No, eliminated Bulls. As to your point, what are you saying exactly? That MJ wasn't at his best? Better FG% than during championship runs 3, 4, 5 and 6. More PPG than runs 1, 4 and 5.

 

 

I'm saying had MJ not retired it would've been highly unlikely he would've lost to Olajuwon. Olajuwon was great that year but not great enough to beat a healthy active Jordan. Plus had MJ not retired, the Bulls would've hung on to Horace. A 92-93 Bulls team - which is basically the team they would've had in the 94-95 season had MJ not left- would've EASILY dismantled Olajuwon and the scrubs he had on his team that year.  I don't think it's any coincidence that the Rockets were title winners the only 2 seasons MJ left. 

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9 hours ago, jstep13 said:

 

 

You mean eliminated GOAT who had just come back from retirement having played 2 months after being off 1.5 years? derp.

"Jordan was rusty" doesn't fly when he goes 32/7/5 on 48% shooting. His performance in 1995 compares favorably to ANY of his postseason performances.

The Bulls couldn't beat a team with a dominant center. Even if they had got through to the finals, Hakeem would have eaten them alive. He wasn't rusty at all, he dropped 55 points against the knicks a month prior, not only did he lose against Shaq & Penny in 1995 he choked twice the full games are on Youtube.

 

Enter Rodman.

 

Rodman's offensive rebounding won the following 1996 series, most long time Bulls fans agree. 

 

Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute s--- in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!) MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

 

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

 

DERP.

 


 

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3 hours ago, Auction>Snake said:

"Jordan was rusty" doesn't fly when he goes 32/7/5 on 48% shooting. His performance in 1995 compares favorably to ANY of his postseason performances.

The Bulls couldn't beat a team with a dominant center. Even if they had got through to the finals, Hakeem would have eaten them alive. He wasn't rusty at all, he dropped 55 points against the knicks a month prior, not only did he lose against Shaq & Penny in 1995 he choked twice the full games are on Youtube.

 

Enter Rodman.

 

Rodman's offensive rebounding won the following 1996 series, most long time Bulls fans agree. 

 

Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute s--- in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!) MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

 

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

 

DERP.

 


 

 

Ewing wasn’t a dominant center? MJ went 30-13 against him. Winning record vs Shaq too. And I’m not even sure why you’re being up Rodman at this point. This conversation was about what MJ could’ve done for those 2 years had he not retired. Rodman came in later. But I like how you speak on the behalf of all Bulls fans. That’s cute. I’m sure everyone can agree that Rodman was the reason MJ won titles even though MJ won long before Rodman was around ?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, jstep13 said:

 

 

I'm saying had MJ not retired it would've been highly unlikely he would've lost to Olajuwon. Olajuwon was great that year but not great enough to beat a healthy active Jordan. Plus had MJ not retired, the Bulls would've hung on to Horace. A 92-93 Bulls team - which is basically the team they would've had in the 94-95 season had MJ not left- would've EASILY dismantled Olajuwon and the scrubs he had on his team that year.  I don't think it's any coincidence that the Rockets were title winners the only 2 seasons MJ left. 

 

Your comment originally wasn't about Hakeem/Houston and hypothetical matchups, but instead about what took place. Bulls were beaten by Magic. Did not go to game 7. Your point seemed to be that MJ wasn't at his best and Bulls would've won if he had a full season under his belt or something. Yet he shot and scored better than during many of their championship runs. Then this took place, i.e. they increased the team's chances, adding several pieces including Rodman:

 

Revenge Is Huge : Bulls Waited an Entire Year and Redesigned Team for Rematch Against Magic

Quote

"A year ago, Jordan, recently returned from baseball, averaged 31 points against the Magic and shot 48%, but turned into the series goat, letting Nick Anderson come up behind him and tip the ball away in the final seconds of Game 1 with the Bulls clinging to a one-point lead; gasping to the finish of Game 6, shooting an airball as the Magic rallied.

 

Jordan said he was sick for Game 6, but no one was satisfied with that. Coach Phil Jackson said later that Jordan's stamina "never got there."

 

Nor was Jordan satisfied. He holed up in a gym all summer--OK, it was a portable dome that a studio put up for him in Los Angeles where he was making a movie, complete with regulation court and weight room. As this season demonstrated, it did the trick.

 

"I must give them credit," Jordan says of the Magic. "They gave me the initiative to go back in the gym and work on my game and get it back to where it needed to be."

 

The rest of the Bulls started getting ready for this one last summer too.


Jackson says the coaching staff began redesigning the team with the Magic in mind "from the time the season was over last year." Jackson wanted bigger guards to face 6-foot-7 Penny Hardaway, 6-5 Anderson and 6-5 Brian Shaw. Mysteriously, B.J. Armstrong, a star on the three championship teams, wound up on the expansion list at age 28. Insiders say Armstrong had become prickly, but he was also 6 feet tall. His place went to Ron Harper, a $4-million dud, but one who stood 6-6.

 

Jackson wanted big bodies to throw against the 7-1, 320-pound (at least) O'Neal. He asked Jordan, who was impatient with Luc Longley, to work him in. The slow-moving Aussie is 7-2, 270, and Jackson wanted someone close in size, even if overmatched in strength and quickness, to get in Shaq's way. Jackson wanted help for Longley. The Bulls signed two more big men, John Salley and James Edwards.

 

He wanted a rebounder. Jackson says General Manager Jerry Krause "accepted our vision with some reluctance" and made the trade for Dennis Rodman.

Now the Bulls have more members of the Bad Boy Pistons (Rodman, Edwards, Salley) who mugged them annually in the '80s, than their championship teams (Jordan, Scottie Pippen) of the '90s. In other words, they're ready for anything.

 

Here's how it shapes up:

 

[...]

 

O'Neal came in as a bad free throw shooter and has gotten worse each year--60%, 55%, 53% 49% this season, 40% this postseason. In close fourth quarters now, he gets rid of the ball as fast as he can. It hasn't been lost on the Magic that the Bulls have accumulated four big men and Rodman, giving them 30 fouls to use on O'Neal, the "Hack-a-Shaq" tactic. For the record, Jackson says the Bulls will play basketball and everything will be fine, unless the referees let O'Neal back the Bulls off the court."

 

There's a reason you rarely see teams even three-peating. The mental wear on a team to keep the highest level + the competitors adjusting along the way trying to figure you out. You're the target and should be able to anticipate against the moves of the entire league (GSW is an example in the sense that Houston is one of the challengers who were designed specifically to beat them). Happened to Bad Boy Pistons, then to Bulls, who then bounced back through good moves by the management and a newly found drive.

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid
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Posted (edited)

A look back at Rodman's relevance in '96:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/08/sports/nba-finals-once-again-rodman-is-most-valuable-bull.html
 

Quote

 

"He's probably the best in history at getting through two guys and getting the rebound," Hersey Hawkins said. "What can you do but try to stop him?"

 

Sonics Coach George Karl, who less than 24 hours earlier had accused Rodman of being a flop artist and embarrassing the National Basketball Association with his antics, begrudgingly gave him his due after some bantering with Rodman during the game. Asked about what he did to contain Toni Kukoc tonight, Karl laughed. "Yeah, he kept missing and Rodman kept getting the rebound," Karl said. "Maybe that's a play they were running. Take 20 seconds off, then take another 20 seconds off. Give him credit. He was their m.v.p. tonight."

 

Tying Elvin Hayes's finals record for most offensive rebounds in a game -- 11 -- Rodman finished with 20 rebounds total. Nine of his offensive boards came in the second half, and many simply demoralized the reeling Sonics, who fought back from 13-point deficit at the beginning of the fourth quarter only to be outdone by the guy with the Italian Ice head.

[...]

 

Rodman had seven offensive rebounds alone in the third quarter. "The rebounding he has done for us has made the difference not only tonight but in the playoffs so far," Michael Jordan said. "Dennis came to Chicago with one purpose, to rebound. We just have to support him offensively, and everything else takes care of itself."

 

[...]

 

He has 33 rebounds in two games, his team is ahead 2 games to 0 in the best-four-of-seven series and he had the key play in Game 2. What's more, Karl is thinking seriously of changing his defensive rotation in order that Rodman can be blocked off the boards. "Jordan will get his points, but Rodman's rebounds, that was the difference."

 

"His offensive rebounds at the end killed us," Detlef Schrempf said. "He kept them in the game."

 

 

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid

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With the caliber of Warriors roster anything short of a championship season is a failure. 

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6 hours ago, jstep13 said:

 

Ewing wasn’t a dominant center? MJ went 30-13 against him. Winning record vs Shaq too. And I’m not even sure why you’re being up Rodman at this point. This conversation was about what MJ could’ve done for those 2 years had he not retired. Rodman came in later. But I like how you speak on the behalf of all Bulls fans. That’s cute. I’m sure everyone can agree that Rodman was the reason MJ won titles even though MJ won long before Rodman was around ?

Lol Hakeem & Shaq are on another level to Ewing. MJ beat the Lakers with no Kareem & Magic had aids, name a team he beat with 3 or more hall of famers on the opposing team. He not only lost legitimately to Shaq & Penny in 1995, but choked in 2 games of that series. MJ desperately needed Rodman's help to overcome them in 1996. Facts.

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5 hours ago, Auction>Snake said:

Lol Hakeem & Shaq are on another level to Ewing. MJ beat the Lakers with no Kareem & Magic had aids, name a team he beat with 3 or more hall of famers on the opposing team. He not only lost legitimately to Shaq & Penny in 1995, but choked in 2 games of that series. MJ desperately needed Rodman's help to overcome them in 1996. Facts.

 

Lol I like how every time I bring up facts you discount them with opinion but whatever. Now you’re just moving the goal posts. “Yeah but how many times did he beat Opposing teams with three or more Hall of Famers?”  Well if I were to buy into that dumb argument I would say that it was a different time back then and teams didn’t artificially create superteams like they do now. It’s not Jordan’s fault that he didn’t force other hall of famers to band together to beat him.

 

How many teams before the mid 90s had multiple Hall of Famer‘s on one team anyway? Maybe three? Off the top of my head - Celtics Sixers Lakers? Two of which were before Jordan’s time. And the third one, the Lakers, were in a different conference. He did however beat teams with multiple all stars. 

 

And you can keep bringing up 1995 all you want considering that’s the only blemish on his record. Again a time when he had only played less than 20 regular season. You didn’t even have half a season under his belt by the time he faced the magic. You’re the only poster I’ve ever seen which holds that time against him.  It’s like you can’t find anything else to pick on Jordan about.  And I don’t know why you say Jordan desperately needed Rodman when he had a three peat well before Rodman. Whether Rodman was on the team or not the bulls would’ve found a way to beat the magic in 1996 - Because to use your argument how many Hall of Famers has the magic produced? The same amount of Hall of Famers that Jordan has beaten every season from other teams. 

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7 hours ago, Preparing the Kool-Aid said:

 

Your comment originally wasn't about Hakeem/Houston and hypothetical matchups, but instead about what took place. Bulls were beaten by Magic. Did not go to game 7. Your point seemed to be that MJ wasn't at his best and Bulls would've won if he had a full season under his belt or something. Yet he shot and scored better than during many of their championship runs. Then this took place, i.e. they increased the team's chances, adding several pieces including Rodman:

 

Revenge Is Huge : Bulls Waited an Entire Year and Redesigned Team for Rematch Against Magic

 

There's a reason you rarely see teams even three-peating. The mental wear on a team to keep the highest level + the competitors adjusting along the way trying to figure you out. You're the target and should be able to anticipate against the moves of the entire league (GSW is an example in the sense that Houston is one of the challengers who were designed specifically to beat them). Happened to Bad Boy Pistons, then to Bulls, who then bounced back through good moves by the management and a newly found drive.

 

That wasn't my argument though. That was other dude's argument, try and keep up. My original point was that I presumed MJ would've won those 2 titles has he not taken 1.5 years off to play baseball. Dude brought up 'well what about this, what about that', I circled back and said MJ wouldve beaten whatever the NBA would've thrown at him since there was no reasonable explanation that MJ was anywhere close to slowing down after his initial 3-peat. MJ and the Bulls had beaten every kind of team dynamic thrown at him up to the end of the first 3-peat. He's beaten dominant PG teams (Magic's Lakers); great center teams (Ewing); great 2 guard teams (Drexler's Blazers), dominant forwards (Barkley). Why would I think Olajuwon + scrubs could beat MJ + Bulls? Or Shaq, Penny + scrubs could beat an ACTIVE MJ + Bulls (note: not a MJ who had played all of 20 games that season). 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jstep13 said:

 

That wasn't my argument though. That was other dude's argument, try and keep up. My original point was that I presumed MJ would've won those 2 titles has he not taken 1.5 years off to play baseball. Dude brought up 'well what about this, what about that', I circled back and said MJ wouldve beaten whatever the NBA would've thrown at him since there was no reasonable explanation that MJ was anywhere close to slowing down after his initial 3-peat. MJ and the Bulls had beaten every kind of team dynamic thrown at him up to the end of the first 3-peat. He's beaten dominant PG teams (Magic's Lakers); great center teams (Ewing); great 2 guard teams (Drexler's Blazers), dominant forwards (Barkley). Why would I think Olajuwon + scrubs could beat MJ + Bulls? Or Shaq, Penny + scrubs could beat an ACTIVE MJ + Bulls (note: not a MJ who had played all of 20 games that season). 

 

 

"Try and keep up..." Smh, that's exactly what I'm saying. Try and keep up. How are you saying that MJ wasn't performing, bringing up his hiatus or him having only played 20 games (21 to be exact, before the Orlando series), when his PPG and FG% were better than during many of the championship runs? He performed and they were beaten fair and square. Now why is that? Because it's a team game and they were beaten by the better team, which was then countered by the Bulls players/management during the offseason.

 

To be precise, what are you basing your argument on that MJ wasn't producing (talking about some ACTIVE MJ...) when the stats say he did?

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid
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45 minutes ago, Preparing the Kool-Aid said:

 

"Try and keep up..." Smh, that's exactly what I'm saying. Try and keep up. How are you saying that MJ wasn't performing, bringing up his hiatus or him having only played 20 games (21 to be exact, before the Orlando series), when his PPG and FG% were better than during many of the championship runs? He performed and they were beaten fair and square. Now why is that? Because it's a team game and they were beaten by the better team, which was then countered by the Bulls players/management during the offseason.

 

To be precise, what are you basing your argument on that MJ wasn't producing (talking about some ACTIVE MJ...) when the stats say he did?

 

 

You keep bringing up ppg and fg% as if it’s the end all be all of basketball. And you gloss over all the other parts of my posts. There’s many other parts to the game than just ppg and fg% otherwise black holes like Carmelo would be considered one of the all time greats.

 

If you actually paid attention to his game you would see his efficiency was worse down the stretch which, a reasonable person can assume, it was due to lack of conditioning. He had only played 20 or so games compared to guys who had played 4x as much.

 

I really shouldn’t have to explain the obvious. It would be like a marathon runner coming out of a 2 year retirement, practicing for a 6 miles and then participating in a 26 mike marathon. There’s no comparison. I don’t know how else to dumb it down for you. Check his 4th quarter stats, his fg% was down while his TOs were up. MJ is legend for having one of the best stamina’s this game has ever seen and you’re trying to convince me and others playing only 20 games after a 1.5 retirement he was already full strength? Lmao.

 

Even the other dude said he “choked” in the 4th quarter. Which is it? Was he full strength and great that year or was he a choker? Can’t be both. 

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7 hours ago, jstep13 said:

 

Lol I like how every time I bring up facts you discount them with opinion but whatever. Now you’re just moving the goal posts. “Yeah but how many times did he beat Opposing teams with three or more Hall of Famers?”  Well if I were to buy into that dumb argument I would say that it was a different time back then and teams didn’t artificially create superteams like they do now. It’s not Jordan’s fault that he didn’t force other hall of famers to band together to beat him.

 

How many teams before the mid 90s had multiple Hall of Famer‘s on one team anyway? Maybe three? Off the top of my head - Celtics Sixers Lakers? Two of which were before Jordan’s time. And the third one, the Lakers, were in a different conference. He did however beat teams with multiple all stars. 

 

And you can keep bringing up 1995 all you want considering that’s the only blemish on his record. Again a time when he had only played less than 20 regular season. You didn’t even have half a season under his belt by the time he faced the magic. You’re the only poster I’ve ever seen which holds that time against him.  It’s like you can’t find anything else to pick on Jordan about.  And I don’t know why you say Jordan desperately needed Rodman when he had a three peat well before Rodman. Whether Rodman was on the team or not the bulls would’ve found a way to beat the magic in 1996 - Because to use your argument how many Hall of Famers has the magic produced? The same amount of Hall of Famers that Jordan has beaten every season from other teams. 

It’s funny how the biggest Lebron fan I’ve seen on this board holds that against Jordan considering i have never seen anyone hold Lebron getting swept by the Spurs against him.

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7 hours ago, jstep13 said:

 

Lol I like how every time I bring up facts you discount them with opinion but whatever. Now you’re just moving the goal posts. “Yeah but how many times did he beat Opposing teams with three or more Hall of Famers?”  Well if I were to buy into that dumb argument I would say that it was a different time back then and teams didn’t artificially create superteams like they do now. It’s not Jordan’s fault that he didn’t force other hall of famers to band together to beat him.

 

How many teams before the mid 90s had multiple Hall of Famer‘s on one team anyway? Maybe three? Off the top of my head - Celtics Sixers Lakers? Two of which were before Jordan’s time. And the third one, the Lakers, were in a different conference. He did however beat teams with multiple all stars. 

 

And you can keep bringing up 1995 all you want considering that’s the only blemish on his record. Again a time when he had only played less than 20 regular season. You didn’t even have half a season under his belt by the time he faced the magic. You’re the only poster I’ve ever seen which holds that time against him.  It’s like you can’t find anything else to pick on Jordan about.  And I don’t know why you say Jordan desperately needed Rodman when he had a three peat well before Rodman. Whether Rodman was on the team or not the bulls would’ve found a way to beat the magic in 1996 - Because to use your argument how many Hall of Famers has the magic produced? The same amount of Hall of Famers that Jordan has beaten every season from other teams. 

9

Lol i'm the only poster huh? There are in-depth analysis on this everywhere.

 

His numbers were as good as always and better then in 96-98 31.5 ppg 484 FG% 6.5 rpg 4.1 Apg 2.3 Spg 1.4 Bpg
You realize he's messed up plenty of times when he was 100% too right? I bet if Pippen doesn't close out the Knicks series in '93, the only thing we hear about from that year is how bad MJ messed up. Well that or his fans playing it off like his wrist wasn't 100% (despite declaring right before the series that it was a non issue). 
Was he ''rusty'' when he scored 55 against the Knicks or 48 against the Hornets in the 1995 playoffs? MJ put up 31/6.5/4/2.5/2 on 48% in the 1995 Magic series, moved way better than he did in '96 and beyond FACTS. Even MJ has always needed one of the best (if not the best) cast in the league to win, and in '95 he didn't have it even though he had better playoff numbers in 95 than in ANY of his 2nd 3peat years. FACTS. The entire series is on youtube, watch and learn.


Jordan is supposed to be the undisputed greatest right? No excuses, him coming back should have made the Bulls an automatic lock to win the championship. (many people believed it would) His presences alone should have put them over the top that year. 


Let's not forget Jordan supposedly had a legendary ''will to win'' he always willed his team to victory no matter what, remember? He didn't though he came up short, choked in a crucial situation against Nick Anderson and cost his team the game and a chance at the title. 
Sorry but time off or ''rust'' is such a laughable excuse for a player like Jordan. I mean the guy is supposed to be by far and away the best ever and he couldn't win because of ''rust''?  Yeah okay.....


If Mike gets 95 disregarded there are a lot of people who should get some of the things used to hate on them taken back. Wilt, West, Magic, and Bird all had years or playoffs of being less than themselves due to things out of their control. The Lakers beat the Celtics in 85 with Larry having a cracked knuckle on his shooting hand. No one says a word about this.  It's a bit of a double standard. Mike is pretty much the only player who gets "Nah that doesnt count...." 


"Jordan not being Jordan" isn't the reason for the Bulls' loss that year. That would be interior defense (or lack thereof) and rebounding. Grant and O'Neal beasted on the Bulls frontcourt and that was the primary reason for the Magic winning. Again he desperately needed Rodman's help in 1996.
 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, jstep13 said:

 

 

You keep bringing up ppg and fg% as if it’s the end all be all of basketball. And you gloss over all the other parts of my posts. There’s many other parts to the game than just ppg and fg% otherwise black holes like Carmelo would be considered one of the all time greats.

 

If you actually paid attention to his game you would see his efficiency was worse down the stretch which, a reasonable person can assume, it was due to lack of conditioning. He had only played 20 or so games compared to guys who had played 4x as much.

 

I really shouldn’t have to explain the obvious. It would be like a marathon runner coming out of a 2 year retirement, practicing for a 6 miles and then participating in a 26 mike marathon. There’s no comparison. I don’t know how else to dumb it down for you. Check his 4th quarter stats, his fg% was down while his TOs were up. MJ is legend for having one of the best stamina’s this game has ever seen and you’re trying to convince me and others playing only 20 games after a 1.5 retirement he was already full strength? Lmao.

 

Even the other dude said he “choked” in the 4th quarter. Which is it? Was he full strength and great that year or was he a choker? Can’t be both. 


Which stats are you talking about besides PPG and FG%?

 

You referred to his 4th Q stats. Game 1 (W) against Hornets: 48 pts, 10 in OT. Game 2 (L): 32 pts, 9 in 4th Q. Game 3 (W): 25 pts, 4 in 4th Q. Game 4 (W): 24 pts, 7 of last 8 points to get the win 85-84. Series over, with these after thoughts:
 

Quote

On Thursday, Charlotte came within a basket of beating the Bulls in Chicago. Michael Jordan was not the dagger he had been in Games 1 and 3, but he got away with things -- so the Hornets thought -- the same kind of things that drove Charlotte to distraction throughout the series.

In fact, in the month since Jordan's return from a year of minor league baseball, Bulls opponents complained that Michael the Messiah was too generously received by National Basketball Association officials. The refrain went something like this: When we block Mike's shot, it's a foul; when he blocks ours, it's a great play.

 

Not that Jordan needs protection. He's led the Bulls to three N.B.A. championships, won several scoring titles and is the closest we have in sports to a living legend. Still, it takes a little luster off the ideal of competition to see the N.B.A. so thoroughly polishing its golden goose.

 

At a crucial juncture in Thursday's game, Jordan pushed off with his left arm as he drove to the basket. Mourning was called for the foul. But the action that enraged the Hornets took place on the final play of the game, when Larry Johnson's last-gasp shot fell short. Hersey Hawkins caught the ball in midair and tried to bank in the missed shot. Jordan hacked Hawkins on his arm. No call. Had the roles been reversed, Jordan would certainly have been on the line.

 

After the game, Dallas Mavericks Coach Dick Motta, serving as a television analyst, smiled as he watched the replay of the final play. "You don't call those on Michael Jordan too often," he said.
 

Mourning was less restrained. "This game was taken away from us," he said. "They want to see the Bulls and the Magic."

 

Game 1 (L) against Magic: 19 pts, stripped by Nick Anderson in the final moments to lose the game. Game 2 (W): 38 pts, 22 in the 2nd half, 6 of the final 8 pts. Game 3 (L): 40 pts, 7 in 4th Q, weak down the stretch. Game 4 (W): 26 pts, 8 in 4th Q. Game 5 (L): 39 pts, 11 in 4th Q. Game 6 (L): 24 pts, 9 in 4th Q; Bulls' last four possessions: airball turnaround J from MJ; nice pass from MJ to Longley who's unable to finish getting hacked hard, and no call (missed call; maybe if it had been MJ getting hacked...); drive from MJ, defended well --> TO; B.J. Armstrong, missed J; Magic sneak from behind to clinch the series.

What specifically is uncommon in those 4th Q stats? I'd say it was up and down, like other years.


As to your final point: "Even the other dude said he “choked” in the 4th quarter. Which is it? Was he full strength and great that year or was he a choker? Can’t be both."

Those are mutually exclusive? So you're saying a fully healthy MJ could never choke? LOL. Come on... This is not (even) the only year he had sub-par performances, even in PO's. He f'd up at times and played well other times. Obviously more of the latter. That year, Bulls couldn't still get over the hump.

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid
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2 hours ago, Preparing the Kool-Aid said:


Which stats are you talking about besides PPG and FG%?

 

You referred to his 4th Q stats. Game 1 (W) against Hornets: 48 pts, 10 in OT. Game 2 (L): 32 pts, 9 in 4th Q. Game 3 (W): 25 pts, 4 in 4th Q. Game 4 (W): 24 pts, 7 of last 8 points to get the win 85-84. Series over, with these after thoughts:
 

 

Game 1 (L) against Magic: 19 pts, stripped by Nick Anderson in the final moments to lose the game. Game 2 (W): 38 pts, 22 in the 2nd half, 6 of the final 8 pts. Game 3 (L): 40 pts, 7 in 4th Q, weak down the stretch. Game 4 (W): 26 pts, 8 in 4th Q. Game 5 (L): 39 pts, 11 in 4th Q. Game 6 (L): 24 pts, 9 in 4th Q; Bulls' last four possessions: airball turnaround J from MJ; nice pass from MJ to Longley who's unable to finish getting hacked hard, and no call (missed call; maybe if it had been MJ getting hacked...); drive from MJ, defended well --> TO; B.J. Armstrong, missed J; Magic sneak from behind to clinch the series.

What specifically is uncommon in those 4th Q stats? I'd say it was up and down, like other years.


As to your final point: "Even the other dude said he “choked” in the 4th quarter. Which is it? Was he full strength and great that year or was he a choker? Can’t be both."

Those are mutually exclusive? So you're saying a fully healthy MJ could never choke? LOL. Come on... This is not (even) the only year he had sub-par performances, even in PO's. He f'd up at times and played well other times. Obviously more of the latter. That year, Bulls couldn't still get over the hump.

There’s not a single player that hasn’t choked at points. Any logical fan can admit that. However, I find bringing those points up over and over again to dispute a players greatness just to prop up another as absolutely absurd and petty. 

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Posted (edited)
On 27.5.2018 at 9:49 AM, Gohawks said:

There’s not a single player that hasn’t choked at points. Any logical fan can admit that. However, I find bringing those points up over and over again to dispute a players greatness just to prop up another as absolutely absurd and petty. 

 

Yes. It's just that some people even here are talking "he beat this and that" as if this was an individual sport, and borderline giving MJ/Bulls 8 championships, when in fact they were beaten, what many consider due to the team just not measuring up, despite what MJ did or didn't do.

 

https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/Chicago_Bulls_History-24393-42.html?nav=ArticleList#17

Quote

Although he was not quite the same player who had left the NBA in 1993, Jordan was still better than most guards in basketball and made the Bulls a feared team. In 17 regular-season games he averaged 26.9 points, 6.9 rebounds, and 5.3 assists. He sparked the team to a 9-1 record in April. His 55-point performance against the rival New York Knicks on March 29 showed that he could still conjure up the old magic.

[...]

The Bulls blasted past the Hornets in the first round of the playoffs and threatened to seize a fourth championship. But even with Jordan, the Bulls could not overcome their own glaring weakness: the lack of a solid inside player. Power forward Horace Grant had left the team in the offseason to sign with the Orlando Magic; he came back to haunt the Bulls in the conference semifinals as his Magic took the series in six games. Jordan averaged 31.5 points in the playoffs.


The other point I raised is the mental burden that players and a team/championship team get put under. If MJ's father hadn't been murdered, how would've things turned out... I've read people saying that MJ was regardless of the incident tired of the hoopla, and wanted some peace and quietness, enjoying his time touring with the Barons. I mean, dude retired three times during his career. There were also times when Pippen had been close to becoming traded.

 

https://www.blogabull.com/2017/3/24/15044772/the-true-story-of-jerry-krause-breakup-of-the-bulls-michael-jordan-phil-jackson-scottie-pippen

 

Quote

Among them was that as early as 1991, as documented in Sam Smith’s The Jordan Rules, Jordan was telling friends and teammates that he wanted to retire. He said it all the way through the 1993 season, even before the intense scrutiny surrounding his gambling, even before his father was killed.

 

“I didn’t plan to come back (to basketball),” Jordan said before the 1995-96 season. “And in some ways that was probably good, because I fixed my mind away from the game. I totally forgot about the game. And then once I got a taste of it again it was a different kind of taste — a taste that I’d been looking for for so long.”

 

Michael had basketball fatigue. Minor league baseball erased it. By 1998, it was back.

 

“You want the real story?” Smith wrote in 2004. “Jordan burned out.”

 

[...]

Scottie Pippen, 1995, describing (from Second Coming) why he wanted to be traded: “The relationship between Krause and me is hate. Trade me or Krause. They could send me anywhere. Nowhere would be as bad as here.”

[...]

Michael Jordan, 1998, describing what could bring him back for the 1999 season: “One thing is for sure, money won't keep me in the game. Never. Just change ownership. And you know what I'd consider a change in ownership? Change the GM. Let Phil be general manager and coach. Krause? I don't want to start a war around here. I'll just say that sometimes it's tough working for an organization that doesn't show the same type of loyalty toward you as you show it.”

 

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid

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Posted (edited)

Additional quotes from that last article:

 

Quote

"At his core, Jerry Krause was a scout. That was his identity. He told Telander and others that he wanted his tombstone to read, “HERE LIES THE HEART AND SOUL OF A SCOUT.”

 

[...]


His gift as a soloist made him a famed and successful talent evaluator. So let's be real here: Jerry Krause BUILT the Bulls. Spare me the nonsense that “Krause didn't draft Jordan. How hard could the rest be?” Hard.

 

In 1987, Krause rescued Phil Jackson from the CBA. Jackson was ready to quit basketball. That one hire by Krause changed the course of the next 30 years of NBA history. Krause also pulled the trigger on firing head coach Doug Collins and promoting Phil.

 

Krause the Scout zeroed in on Pippen before his GM peers. Krause the GM wheeled-and-dealed his way to Pip landing in a Bulls uniform. Same can be said for Toni Kukoc. And his swap of Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright — with Horace Grant ready to fill in for Oak — gave the Bulls their final pieces for their first run.

 

Incredibly, from 1993 to 1995, Krause took one three-peat team and retooled it on the fly to create another three-peat team. He spotted well-suited bargains in Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington, traded two career backups (Stacey King and Will Perdue) straight up for two starters (Luc Langley and Dennis Rodman), signed Brian Williams (later Bison Dele) for the end of the 1997 season to replace an injured Wennington, and acquired Scott Burrell for 1998, a guy who in one season somehow won MJ’s respect and a spot at his card table.


[...]

 

On the eve of the 1998 season, he dropped his most famous, and most misquoted, statement: “Organizations win championships.” “What I said was, correctly, ‘Players and coaches alone don’t win championships. Organizations do.’ That’s true,” Krause said last month in an interview with Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports.

 

“You’ve never really backed away from that,” Wojnarowski responded. “You still believe it.”

“Sure,” Krause said. His point was that the Bulls were more than one great player, and he of course was right. The Bulls won championships four, five, and six not just because they had the best player but because they had the best second-best player and the best rebounder and the best sixth man and the best pure shooter and the best coach and, yes, the best general manager.

[...]

 

Bulls fans like to pretend that we only lost titles because we, I guess, stopped trying. I’ve argued that the Bulls would not have won eight straight titles if MJ didn’t retire. But don’t take my word for it.
 

“People say if I hadn’t played baseball for a year and a half, we would be going for our eighth championship in a row,” Jordan told Telander in 1998. “But I don't think so. After our three-peat, the atmosphere on the team wasn't the same. On this team we love each other. No jealousies, no animosities, no nothing.”
 

Dynasties die. No team wins forever. The 1980s Lakers needed four Hall of Famers plus three other all-stars plus another 20-point scorer plus one of the game’s best defenders to win five championships in nine seasons. Shaq and Kobe were two of the league’s five best players and only won three titles together. Kobe won five total. Duncan won five. Magic won five. Bird won three. The Miami Heat pulled in arguably the greatest single-season free agent haul in NBA history and won only two championships.
 

The Bulls won six in eight years. Jerry Krause acquired the talent. Phil Jackson shaped it. Michael Jordan drove it. Scottie Pippen soothed it. Jerry Reinsdorf paid it. They did it together. They broke it together, aided — and guided — by time, age, health, ego, need, anger, boredom, and restlessness. There was no Yoko. Not even Yoko was really a Yoko. Rest in peace Jerry Krause. You earned it.

 

---------


Also, with an owner with this kind of mentality, less need to go chasing rings/teammates:

 

And Reinsdorf was a man who felt that the only reason to own a sports team was to compete for championships.

 

“I made the decision,” Reinsdorf said in 1995, as written by Smith in his book Second Coming. “As long as Michael is here we have to try to win and worry about what happens later.”

 

 

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid

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I just wanted to pop in and say I have to laugh anytime anyone takes Crumbs seriously. Anyone who knows any history of the Bulls knows that Krause was a megalomaniac. He always credits himself for Jordan and the Bulls winning a title - always giving Jordan + Pippen + PJ little to no credit. No one on the Bulls ever took him serious. You're doing the equivalent of quoting Trump on the success of our country smh.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, jstep13 said:

I just wanted to pop in and say I have to laugh anytime anyone takes Crumbs seriously. Anyone who knows any history of the Bulls knows that Krause was a megalomaniac. He always credits himself for Jordan and the Bulls winning a title - always giving Jordan + Pippen + PJ little to no credit. No one on the Bulls ever took him serious. You're doing the equivalent of quoting Trump on the success of our country smh.

 

I wasn't quoting Krause, but a sports historian who wrote a book about Bulls. Haven't read it myself, so can't say about the source(s) regarding that perspective, but I'd imagine it wasn't simply Krause laying it out. The author had this to say about the book (and Bulls):

 

Quote

What was your inspiration for writing this book?

My inspiration was my longstanding fascination with the 28-month period between the '93 Finals and the '95-'96 preseason when the Bulls replaced 10 players and became a totally different team, albeit with the same two best players and same coach. People always talked about the "Bulls dynasty" that "won six rings," and to me, it was always two teams that won three rings.

 

[...]
 

What was your favorite part about writing this book?

The research! Easy. Loved the research. Read a ton, learned a ton. Gotta gives a shoutout to Melissa Isaacson's "Transition Game." I read a lot of good books but that was the one that I did not even know existed until I started the project. So many gems in there, like Jordan's perspective on the Pippen-Kukoc dynamic in 1994. That book is a must for Bulls fans who are serious about the team's history.

 

"Michael Jordan The Life" by Roland Lazenby adds a great deal to the understanding of Jordan, which I thought was impossible. Sam Smith's Jordan oral history "There Is No Next" is super duper fun, and his "Second Coming" from 1995 is a great companion to "The Jordan Rules." I include a bibliography in the book and tons of links. There's a lot to explore.

 

Edited by Preparing the Kool-Aid

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2 hours ago, My Dinner With Andre said:

I won't look back fondly on the Warriors dynasty.

 

The team jumped the shark when they added Durant.

 

 

You can be mad at Durant but how the hell can you be mad at the Warriors?

 

They did things about as right as you can. Built incredibly through the draft like no other. Then they went after KD because they built through the draft like no other. How can you fault them for that? You expect them to be like; "We are already so good might as well try and make it fair for everyone else!" They sold KD on their system and it worked. I don't like KD either and hate what he did but I appreciate the Warriors.

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9 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

You can be mad at Durant but how the hell can you be mad at the Warriors?

 

They did things about as right as you can. Built incredibly through the draft like no other. Then they went after KD because they built through the draft like no other. How can you fault them for that? You expect them to be like; "We are already so good might as well try and make it fair for everyone else!" They sold KD on their system and it worked. I don't like KD either and hate what he did but I appreciate the Warriors.

 

Exactly! People hate the on the Warriors as a team when they did what any logical organization would do. Every team in this league would have done whatever they could to sign durant.

 

All blame/hate should be directed towards KD. 30 teams wouldve made him an offer, he choose GSW.

 

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