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Warriors Legacy?

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10 minutes ago, jstep13 said:

 

 

I guess you were taking a potty break when, before Ray Allen bailed out yet another close LeBron failure in '03 game 6, LeBron had brick after brick (including airballs) and turnovers? You probably missed the part where he was crying on the sideline facing yet another playoff failure. Here's video although the guy (smartly) cut out the time outs where LeBron was balling on the sideline. But enjoy his awful shots :D

 

 

I am going to bow out of this conversation because it is really stupid to me. I just do not understand why people focus on other's shortcomings like they are supposed to be perfect. In your examples you are forgetting context. Pop and the Spurs were committed to turning Lebron into a jump shooter. Lebron isn't a great shooter. He is a physical freak that excels at bully ball and when defenses collapse on him he passes the ball and makes the right basketball play. I don't care if Lebron gets the ball poked away by Kawhi when he doubles and the paint is congested. I don't care if he misses shots. The only time I saw Lebron not really want the ball to make a play, either shooting or passing, was versus the Mavs. 

 

For what it is worth, I don't actually rank Lebron all that highly in my list of great basketball players. Lebron is certainly the most impressive physical specimen to ever play the game of basketball, but I value skill, competitiveness, and athletes that are killers (in their sports) far more than physical attributes. 

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4 minutes ago, thezing1 said:

I am going to bow out of this conversation because it is really stupid to me. I just do not understand why people focus on other's shortcomings like they are supposed to be perfect. In your examples you are forgetting context. Pop and the Spurs were committed to turning Lebron into a jump shooter. Lebron isn't a great shooter. He is a physical freak that excels at bully ball and when defenses collapse on him he passes the ball and makes the right basketball play. I don't care if Lebron gets the ball poked away by Kawhi when he doubles and the paint is congested. I don't care if he misses shots. The only time I saw Lebron not really want the ball to make a play, either shooting or passing, was versus the Mavs. 

 

For what it is worth, I don't actually rank Lebron all that highly in my list of great basketball players. Lebron is certainly the most impressive physical specimen to ever play the game of basketball, but I value skill, competitiveness, and athletes that are killers (in their sports) far more than physical attributes. 

 

 

Then I can see why LeBron is ranked so lowly for you. I tend to agree, imo LeBron is one of the meekest all-time greats as I've ever seen. When things go well, he acts very triumphant and confident. When they do not, he shrivels up like a cold willy on a December morning like no one I've ever seen. He is an absolute physical monster but he is a mental midget. Look no further than the crap he's doing now (again) opting out to coattail another team in hopes of winning another title to prove "he's the greatest". A mentally strong competitor would deal with what's been given to him. It's one thing to do it once, but this is 3rd time. 

 

Edited by jstep13
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1 minute ago, jstep13 said:

 

 

Then I can see why LeBron is ranked so lowly for you. I tend to agree, imo LeBron is one of the meekest all-time greats as I've ever seen. When things go well, he acts very triumphant and confident. When they do not, he shrivels up like a cold willy on a December morning like no one I've ever seen. 

 

Well, you should see my post about the Warriors and why they are so incredible IMO and understand that their greatness does that to EVERYONE. I just view it as their greatness and not Lebron's shortcomings. Two very different ways of looking at it. Lebron doesn't have the skillset to overcome great teams. And he has run into a lot of great teams. That Spurs team that railroaded the Heat in the finals was so ridiculously incredible. And these Warriors teams are just on an entirely different level. 

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Best team ever assembled.  Not just in terms of talent but the way in which Curry (arguably the best player 3 seasons ago) humbled himself to fit in Durant.  Now they have four stars on their team and yet no chiefs.  They’ve all sacrificed for the betterment of the whole. This team will be studied in business school as a paragon of leadership for decades. 

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3 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

Best team ever assembled.  Not just in terms of talent but the way in which Curry (arguably the best player 3 seasons ago) humbled himself to fit in Durant.  Now they have four stars on their team and yet no chiefs.  They’ve all sacrificed for the betterment of the whole. This team will be studied in business school as a paragon of leadership for decades. 

Wrong WRONG 

 

the NBA system is broken .... we all know this contract salary shi5 needs to be fixed 

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Just now, shakestreet said:

Wrong WRONG 

 

the NBA system is broken .... we all know this contract salary shi5 needs to be fixed 

Well what’s wrong about it?  They are one of the best teams ever assembled based on talent alone.  If the NBA system is broken then that means 29 other teams are operating under the same rules and couldn’t exploit them.  That means the warriors were the best at the business of the NBA and should be appreciated as such.  

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There is two dynamics to the NBA which causes its own problem. There are teams “willing” to spend, and there are teams who are not. Surprinsingly there are a lot of owners of basketball teams, who are cheap. How they became rich? Is a case study.

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7 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

Well what’s wrong about it?  They are one of the best teams ever assembled based on talent alone.  If the NBA system is broken then that means 29 other teams are operating under the same rules and couldn’t exploit them.  That means the warriors were the best at the business of the NBA and should be appreciated as such.  

Not saying anything about talent. The warriors have IT.

the Draft was big —- Curry, Thompson & Green 

3 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

There is two dynamics to the NBA which causes its own problem. There are teams “willing” to spend, and there are teams who are not. Surprinsingly there are a lot of owners of basketball teams, who are cheap. How they became rich? Is a case study.

Look at what the Warriors spend compare to the Mavs, Bulls,  Pacers, Suns Kings etc..

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1 hour ago, shakestreet said:

Not saying anything about talent. The warriors have IT.

the Draft was big —- Curry, Thompson & Green 

Look at what the Warriors spend compare to the Mavs, Bulls,  Pacers, Suns Kings etc..

Is the ultimate goal of an Nba franchise to make money or to win games?  I would argue and owners would tell you that it is to win titles.  You seem to be arguing that the warriors accomplishments are for naught because they had spend money to get there.  That’s a dumb argument because any team would spend as the warriors are to get the success that they are.  

 

Yet along those lines if you’re looking at teams who have accomplished a lot relative to their owners wealth you have to put the jazz and spurs up there as among the greats.  I am a Jazz fan and although they have never won a championship they are top 5 in terms of regular season win percentage over the last 25 years and they’ve done it with one of the poorest ownership groups.  The success of the warriors would be akin to the Jazz being a comtender for the next five years and if the Jazz ever won a championship there would be rioting in the streets.   So now you’re trying to discredit another small

market team because of the way they did it?! No.  It was a miracle this team coming together the way they did.  They deserve all the credit in the world.  I’d much rather see a warriors, spurs, jazz team than an LA or New York team winning it.  You don’t know how much this warriors runs means not just to warriors fans but to the rest of us too.  

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2 hours ago, shakestreet said:

 

Look at what the Warriors spend compare to the Mavs, Bulls,  Pacers, Suns Kings etc..

 

Well, that speaks more about the owners again. Warriors didn’t just become rich and able to attract talent all of a sudden. Before Curry, there biggest attraction was Baron Davis & Jason Richardson.

 

Also, keep in mind some teams rather stack cap space and then don’t use it. Case in point, Philly and Atlanta’s and to a degree Phoenix/Denver. Sign all these cheap contracts but have 20+ in cap space and do nothing. Or won’t pay over to get a player to put them in the luxury tax even if it

makes them more competitive.

Edited by RedDogNamedClippers
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On 6/30/2018 at 10:24 AM, thezing1 said:

I am going to bow out of this conversation because it is really stupid to me. I just do not understand why people focus on other's shortcomings like they are supposed to be perfect. In your examples you are forgetting context. Pop and the Spurs were committed to turning Lebron into a jump shooter. Lebron isn't a great shooter. He is a physical freak that excels at bully ball and when defenses collapse on him he passes the ball and makes the right basketball play. I don't care if Lebron gets the ball poked away by Kawhi when he doubles and the paint is congested. I don't care if he misses shots. The only time I saw Lebron not really want the ball to make a play, either shooting or passing, was versus the Mavs. 

 

For what it is worth, I don't actually rank Lebron all that highly in my list of great basketball players. Lebron is certainly the most impressive physical specimen to ever play the game of basketball, but I value skill, competitiveness, and athletes that are killers (in their sports) far more than physical attributes. 

Wilt is the most impressive physical specimen. I do agree with the last bit though which is why I haven’t enjoyed Lebron as much as someone like Kobe. Still no disputing Lebrons greatness though. 

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On May 23, 2018 at 11:20 AM, RedDogNamedClippers said:

If they win this year they are a legit dynasty in the making. They would sit at the 5th spot on Top 5 dynasties. That 73-9 record to get to the finals and lose a 3-1 lead to Lebron is a legendary loss to me.

 

If anybody is wondering who my Top 5 dynasties are:

 

1. Lakers (Magic)

2. Bulls ( Jordan)

3. Lakers (Kobe)

4. Spurs (Duncan)

5. Celtics (Bird)

 

Not having the Bill Russell Celtics (11 titles in 13 years) atop this list is laughable. 

 

And Russell won 5 MVPs (first ever to win 4 in 5 yrs, which only Lebron has matched since), so he wasn't just a cheerleader or "good" player. 

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On June 8, 2018 at 8:58 PM, jstep13 said:

 

 

Back when there were like 6 teams in the entire league. But yeah, he's the man too...

 

There were 8 teams, not 6.  And this meant every team (not just 3 or 4 out of 30) had multiple All-Stars and was far tougher to beat every single season like Russell did.  

 

Anyone who compares Horry to Russell has exposed the little they know about basketball. 

 

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1 hour ago, Gohawks said:

Wilt is the most impressive physical specimen. I do agree with the last bit though which is why I haven’t enjoyed Lebron as much as someone like Kobe. Still no disputing Lebrons greatness though. 

Agree.  LeBron is one of my least favorite nba players simply because of how physically dominant he is.  Is there anyone else who was 6’8” 250 out of high school? That’s insane.  I was a pretty good athlete and I was 6’1” 160.  I cant even imagine being so physically gifted.  It’s not fair and it’s not a compelling story to me. 

 

Now a kid that went to Davidson and weighs 190 lbs?  A kid that looks more like a computer nerd than NBA player yet has the prettiest outside stroke in the history of the game...he just hits the floor and it’s like music.  That’s the kid I’m getting behind.  

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7 hours ago, StifleTower2 said:

Agree.  LeBron is one of my least favorite nba players simply because of how physically dominant he is.  Is there anyone else who was 6’8” 250 out of high school? That’s insane.  I was a pretty good athlete and I was 6’1” 160.  I cant even imagine being so physically gifted.  It’s not fair and it’s not a compelling story to me. 

 

Now a kid that went to Davidson and weighs 190 lbs?  A kid that looks more like a computer nerd than NBA player yet has the prettiest outside stroke in the history of the game...he just hits the floor and it’s like music.  That’s the kid I’m getting behind.  


computer nerd? You make it sounds like Stephen Curry fell out of a tree and landed in the NBA. You could see the kid was something special in college. A sweet stroke, a scoring machine. Stephen's father Dell played in the NBA in case you forgot.

 

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19 hours ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

There is two dynamics to the NBA which causes its own problem. There are teams “willing” to spend, and there are teams who are not. Surprinsingly there are a lot of owners of basketball teams, who are cheap. How they became rich? Is a case study.

 

I really can't think of any time a team was too cheap to keep a good team to play together besides OKC. I also think they probably underestimated how good Harden was. I think that if they knew he was an MVP caliber player, there's no way they'd have given him away. They got cute and drunk from arguably the greatest string of draft picks in NBA History. They obviously regret it now and are spending a lot on their team now, so I'm not even sure they can be called a cheap team, they just made an awful decision there.

 

Anyway there's a cap that prevents super teams from forming to an extent.  The Warriors were in a fortunate spot that they were able to get KD.  Had Curry not had ankle problems early in his career and got a max deal sooner, then well maybe they don't suck badly enough to get Klay and Curry's contract is worth so much earlier that they couldn't fit in KD.

 

Most teams are willing to spend on good players.

Edited by brockpapersizer

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1 hour ago, shakestreet said:


computer nerd? You make it sounds like Stephen Curry fell out of a tree and landed in the NBA. You could see the kid was something special in college. A sweet stroke, a scoring machine. Stephen's father Dell played in the NBA in case you forgot.

 

A little bit of exaggeration there.  But the point remains that most of Curry’s greatness comes from his attitude and a shot that he perfected rather than raw physical talent.  

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10 hours ago, joshua18 said:

 

There were 8 teams, not 6.  And this meant every team (not just 3 or 4 out of 30) had multiple All-Stars and was far tougher to beat every single season like Russell did.  

 

Anyone who compares Horry to Russell has exposed the little they know about basketball. 

 

This is like saying the Warriors have multiple all stars and the Pelicans have multiple all stars. And if there were 2 of only 8 teams then the Warriors and Pelicans, both with multiple all stars, would run into each all the time in the playoffs. And you know what, I have the Warriors winning 99 out of 100 times in that matchup. If you are going to go with this argument of all star players, then you need to look at the ratio of all stars to starters in the entire league. Then compare that ratio to today. Volume is key, and there just isn't much volume in a 8 team league to fill out an all star team. Also, the all star game voting is far from perfect. And I am not saying anything negative about Russell or that era or this era. I know what I have seen and lived through and I wish I could have seen Russell play back in the day. Dude was obviously a beast and amazing competitors are fun to watch. 

 

You can counter or not. I don't like the GOAT discussion and definitely don't need to get into the GOAT dynasty discussion. Just wanted to point out what I think is a possible flaw in the logic you are using. 

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9 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

A little bit of exaggeration there.  But the point remains that most of Curry’s greatness comes from his attitude and a shot that he perfected rather than raw physical talent.  

 

Everyone is allowed to have whatever reasons they want to cheer for anyone. It's true, Steph Curry is a much better shooter than Lebron and is much less of an athletic specimen.  He is obviously less physically gifted than Lebron, as  are 99%+ of humans.

 

That being said.  Lebron isn't just an elite body with little actual talent/basketball smarts.  There are plenty of people who are athletic freaks that couldn't even touch the NBA let alone dominate it for a decade.  Lebron is a super intelligent NBA player that often gets overlooked by people who just write him off as just a freak athlete. It would be dumb for him to develop as a finesse player given his body. 

 

Additionally, I heard this argument with Kobe back in the day as well. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Lebron is more athletic than Kobe. But someone like Kobe won the NBA Dunk competition. Do you know the percentage of humans that could even compete in an NBA dunk competition?  To be in the NBA, you pretty much have to be a god gifted athlete to begin with.  These are basically all athletic freaks.  Calling guys like /Kobe/Curry whoever as just hard working guys who got their on just their hard work and practice and not Lebron is just not accurate. There are plenty of who have played basketball all their life and are under 6'2" or whatever, and have 0 percent chance of making the NBA regardless of how hard they work. 

 

Lastly, don't underestimate the ridiculous advantage/privilege Steph Curry was born into by having a wealthy upbringing and a father with first hand NBA experience. Steph Curry deserves every good that ever happens to him, and by all accounts he seems like a great guy and extremely hard working, but who knows where he'd be if his father wasn't a former NBA player let alone in his life. Having a mentor who has your back 100% and gone through the rigors of the NBA before is being very overlooked if someone is saying Lebron is only in the NBA because of his athleticism while Curry is just a regular guy who worked hard.

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9 hours ago, StifleTower2 said:

Agree.  LeBron is one of my least favorite nba players simply because of how physically dominant he is.  Is there anyone else who was 6’8” 250 out of high school? That’s insane.  I was a pretty good athlete and I was 6’1” 160.  I cant even imagine being so physically gifted.  It’s not fair and it’s not a compelling story to me. 

 

 

So I guess that means you didn’t find Shaq or Yao Ming a compelling story?

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4 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

 

So I guess that means you didn’t find Shaq or Yao Ming a compelling story?

Also no.  This is just my personal preference but I don’t feel drawn by big men of any kind.  I played shooting guard so I have a natural affinity toward shooting guards, especially SHOOTING guards ala Korver types.  I have some respect for the pure dominance of Shaq and other big men.  But I could never imagine being them in a million years whereas I can at least imagine being like Korver if things had broke for me differently.  

 

I like some of what Brock said.  I think it was a Freakonomics show that argued that the greatest indicator of someone making it to the NBA is having a parent who was a professional athlete. So Curry was incredibly privileged in that regard. But for me that also plays into my affinity for him.  He came from a good wholesome home.  Married his sweetheart.  A lot of people knew he was talented but when he had ankle issues a lot of people said he was a bust. You can’t tell me no one called him a bust because I remember it very clearly.  Finally when he gets his break his game is so beautiful, so perfect.  He’s the swaggiest sexiest shooter of all time imo and since shooting the long ball is what excites me ofc curry is going to be my guy.  Then after he finally  achieves stardom he sacrifices a part of that so they can add a superstar who overshadows him to an extent in Durant.  Imo it was Curry’s selflessness and humility that allowed them to add Durant.  Remember as nice of a guy Durant was, he couldn’t get along long term with Westbrook so Curry is a special personality in that regard.  Imo he’s the personification of everything good about basketball and even humanity at large. He’s such a kind, humble, person who will sacrifice for the betterment of the team even though he’s the best shooter of all time and would be perfectly justified in being selfish.  Klay Thompson is the same way I am just not as drawn to him the same way as I’m drawn to Curry.  You can’t really argue because I admit it’s just a feeling I have.  I think arguing about the GOAT is pointless because it’s subjective.  But if you want know how I feel, I’m more drawn to Curry than everyone else in the NBA combined.

 

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1 hour ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

Everyone is allowed to have whatever reasons they want to cheer for anyone. It's true, Steph Curry is a much better shooter than Lebron and is much less of an athletic specimen.  He is obviously less physically gifted than Lebron, as  are 99%+ of humans.

 

That being said.  Lebron isn't just an elite body with little actual talent/basketball smarts.  There are plenty of people who are athletic freaks that couldn't even touch the NBA let alone dominate it for a decade.  Lebron is a super intelligent NBA player that often gets overlooked by people who just write him off as just a freak athlete. It would be dumb for him to develop as a finesse player given his body. 

 

Additionally, I heard this argument with Kobe back in the day as well. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Lebron is more athletic than Kobe. But someone like Kobe won the NBA Dunk competition. Do you know the percentage of humans that could even compete in an NBA dunk competition?  To be in the NBA, you pretty much have to be a god gifted athlete to begin with.  These are basically all athletic freaks.  Calling guys like /Kobe/Curry whoever as just hard working guys who got their on just their hard work and practice and not Lebron is just not accurate. There are plenty of who have played basketball all their life and are under 6'2" or whatever, and have 0 percent chance of making the NBA regardless of how hard they work. 

 

Lastly, don't underestimate the ridiculous advantage/privilege Steph Curry was born into by having a wealthy upbringing and a father with first hand NBA experience. Steph Curry deserves every good that ever happens to him, and by all accounts he seems like a great guy and extremely hard working, but who knows where he'd be if his father wasn't a former NBA player let alone in his life. Having a mentor who has your back 100% and gone through the rigors of the NBA before is being very overlooked if someone is saying Lebron is only in the NBA because of his athleticism while Curry is just a regular guy who worked hard.

Yes, Lebron isn't just an elite body with little skill. However, in porportion to the rest of the league his actual skill wasn't anything to knock home about until somewhat recently. I actually enjoyed watching Lebron last few seasons far more than earlier on due to the development of things such as his floater, 3 point jumper, and fade away. There is no question he worked his a** off though.

 

You also do have to be a freak athlete. I remember me and my buddy were trying to look up NBA players that can't dunk and it was pretty hard to find a guy that can't dunk. Every single player in the NBA is in the top 1% athletics wise including Curry. He is still extremely quick. I actually also saw him do a 360 dunk at a game during warm ups. These guys that you think aren't freak athletes would obliterate everyone at your local gym in practically any phsyical event.

 

However, I find any comparison to the average guy somewhat ridiculous. They have to be compared to on their own level. In which case, Lebron is still a freak and Curry is average. Kobe was a good athlete by NBA standards as well but he wasn't anything close to Lebron when you factor in size. Lebrons combination of size and athleticism makes it somewhat boring at times. It's not the case as much anymore as it was before. 

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11 hours ago, joshua18 said:

Anyone who compares Horry to Russell has exposed the little they know about basketball. 

 

It's the dumbest strawman I hear in the ranking of NBA greats.

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39 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

Also no.  This is just my personal preference but I don’t feel drawn by big men of any kind.  I played shooting guard so I have a natural affinity toward shooting guards, especially SHOOTING guards ala Korver types.  I have some respect for the pure dominance of Shaq and other big men.  But I could never imagine being them in a million years whereas I can at least imagine being like Korver if things had broke for me differently.  

 

I like some of what Brock said.  I think it was a Freakonomics show that argued that the greatest indicator of someone making it to the NBA is having a parent who was a professional athlete. So Curry was incredibly privileged in that regard. But for me that also plays into my affinity for him.  He came from a good wholesome home.  Married his sweetheart.  A lot of people knew he was talented but when he had ankle issues a lot of people said he was a bust. You can’t tell me no one called him a bust because I remember it very clearly.  Finally when he gets his break his game is so beautiful, so perfect.  He’s the swaggiest sexiest shooter of all time imo and since shooting the long ball is what excites me ofc curry is going to be my guy.  Then after he finally  achieves stardom he sacrifices a part of that so they can add a superstar who overshadows him to an extent in Durant.  Imo it was Curry’s selflessness and humility that allowed them to add Durant.  Remember as nice of a guy Durant was, he couldn’t get along long term with Westbrook so Curry is a special personality in that regard.  Imo he’s the personification of everything good about basketball and even humanity at large. He’s such a kind, humble, person who will sacrifice for the betterment of the team even though he’s the best shooter of all time and would be perfectly justified in being selfish.  Klay Thompson is the same way I am just not as drawn to him the same way as I’m drawn to Curry.  You can’t really argue because I admit it’s just a feeling I have.  I think arguing about the GOAT is pointless because it’s subjective.  But if you want know how I feel, I’m more drawn to Curry than everyone else in the NBA combined.

 

You talking about Tom Brady?

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