Gohawks

Kawhi Leonard 2018-19 Season Thread

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4 minutes ago, Pyschout said:

 

I agree with you.  I'm saying that MOST of the people who are saying this trade sucks for Toronto are doing it because they love DeMar.  I'm not saying I dislike him at all, I'm just saying I don't really pay attention to all the off the court stuff so I'm seeing a borderline All-NBA volume scorer without a three point shot, whose team had capped out with him traded for a borderline MVP candidate with health concerns. AKA a risk you're happy taking.

 

Or the reason they are saying the trade sucks for Toronto is because you trade away 2 players (a franchise player, and a potential) for a year rental of a disgruntled player. You already know what to expect from Derozan, but you don't know which Kawhi you are going to get. 

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DeMar as a franchise player isn't that great.  How many years have pundits been talking about the Raptors needing to blow it up?  They looked like they were wrong last year, right up until the Cavs series.

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7 minutes ago, Pyschout said:

DeMar as a franchise player isn't that great.  How many years have pundits been talking about the Raptors needing to blow it up?  They looked like they were wrong last year, right up until the Cavs series.

 

Well come playoff time you rather have DeRozan or Kyle (I like to disappear in the playoffs) Lowry. We all know the blowup was going to happen, but not at the expense of getting a rental. But it works out for Toronto in the long run, because they didn't have to part with Siakam or OB. So they are set to reload if all things go right.

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LeBron trolls the Raptors again next summer when he signs Kawhi and Toronto gets nothing. 

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59 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

If I may I think what you’re getting at is an emotional decision versus a strategic one.  I don’t think DeRozan can win a championship in today’s NBA because he isn’t efficient enough offensively particularly in an era where teams are constructed around shooting 3’s at 40% (12 points per 10 possessions) while he shoots 2s at 45% (9 points per 10 possessions).  I think that’s why the raptors do well in the regular season because DeRozan can carve up bad teams but they lose to more efficient teams in the playoffs.  Moreover, he is good enough on defense to not be a negative but not good enough to be a positive.  I also think his usage takes away from Lowry who is arguably better suited for today’s NBA even if DeRozan is the better player in the abstract.  I also think an underrated aspect of this trade is getting Danny Green who is still viable.  That makes their starting 5: Lowry, Green, Kawhi, Ibaka, Valancuinas which is filthy on paper.  I don’t know for certain how they will gel but on paper I would say they’re the favorites to make the finals.  Mejiri doesn’t get enough credit imo as he is probably a top 5 GM.  He knows DeRozan wasn’t getting them over the hump.  For Raptors fans I assume it’s sad to see DeRozan go but if they make the finals it will quickly be forgotten.  The GM’s job is to maximize his team’s chance of winning a title and he did that.  Right up there with Ainge imo.  

You are basically right but I would add in the wrinkle is that he gets a lot of fouls in the regular season, which bumps up his efficiency and helps Toronto beat teams. In the playoffs, he got a lot less whistles and the advantages became disadvantages. We really tried to make it work in the post season with his 2 pt game but really I don't think it ever could work at all.

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1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

 

DeRozan is salty about being lied to by the Raptors.  Tons of players when traded are shocked and pissed when they first find out they've been moved.  Plus, DD had actually really embraced Toronto, which wasn't like other stars like Vince or Tracy, who wanted to get out fairly quickly.  DeRozan is a solid guy and he'll probably eventually cool off and realize he's been put in a great situation.  I don't anticipate any issues with DeRozan..... now, Kawhi?  No idea.  Toronto's actually a great city for 6 months.  Those winters though......

 

Kawhi's a wild card, it's a coin flip if he ever embraces Toronto but those who are controlling him are pissed this morning and will want to move him to another market ASAP.  Can those folks be won over?  Can they have their minds changed?  That's the challenge for Ujiri.  I think it can be done..... but he'll need to get in those dudes ears quickly.  They're provincial thinkers and real amateurs.  They don't have a global view of things, perhaps Ujiri can sell them on one for Kawhi....

 

I guess if you are comparing California to Toronto then yeah the winters suck.  Otherwise Toronto is the same as Boston or New York weather wise.  Now east or western Canada you get some worse winters or if you are talking really far north.  Newfoundland had a snow storm a few weeks ago.  It basically snowed 3 times in Toronto all winter.  Didn't get my snowblower out once in the past 3 years.   

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12 minutes ago, rob0403 said:

We really tried to make it work in the post season with his 2 pt game but really I don't think it ever could work at all.

I agree and that’s the long and short of it right there.  

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Toronto is banking on Drake to provide a better party than Westbrook on bringing Kawhi back.

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Only came here to post the craziest RW blurb of all time:

 

:...but it's not easy for small market teams to acquire a player of Kawhi's caliber, so they'll take the OKC approach and try to woo him during his time in Canada".

 

Never those concerns about that monstrous market in Boston.

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2 minutes ago, The Legend said:

Only came here to post the craziest RW blurb of all time:

 

:...but it's not easy for small market teams to acquire a player of Kawhi's caliber, so they'll take the OKC approach and try to woo him during his time in Canada".

 

Never those concerns about that monstrous market in Boston.

I know it’s insane to consider Toronto a small market.  It’s population is around 2.5M.  By way of comparison Orlando’s population is 277K.  I read somewhere that they consider market size based on Nelson ratings but I still can’t imagine Toronto being a small market by any means.  

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1 hour ago, TheBoatmen said:

I guess if you are comparing California to Toronto then yeah the winters suck.  Otherwise Toronto is the same as Boston or New York weather wise.  Now east or western Canada you get some worse winters or if you are talking really far north.  Newfoundland had a snow storm a few weeks ago.  It basically snowed 3 times in Toronto all winter.  Didn't get my snowblower out once in the past 3 years.   

 

I think Kawhi and most SoCal guys think NE weather sucks..... so yes, comparatively, the winters suck.  Boston is miserable in the winter, IMO.  NY, not great either.  I lived in a place with all 4 seasons and have spent time in both places.  No one said it's Siberia, but a kid from LA may think it feels that way.  DD ended up loving Toronto so Kawhi may like it too.  Toronto's a nice city and cosmopolitan as well.  There are worse cities to be sent to, IMO, but then you consider the tax situation, weather, travel, etc, there's a reason the 3 other stars from the franchise (VC, Tracy, and Bosh) left.... Personally, I'll be rooting for the Raptors to keep him, only because I think it's healthy for the league.

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Want to get the discussion on this thread turned towards Kawhi's fantasy value for the 2018-19 season.  I am assuming that he's fully healthy and ready to go in TOR.  Definite top 8 pick IMO.  We could easily see him add 2 MPG, which would obviously boost his counting stats.  Only guys that I would take in front of him at this point are AD, Harden, Giannis, KAT, Jokic, Durant & Curry (and I may bump Kawhi over KD & Steph if everything is looking good the rest of the offseason and during TC, preseason).

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9 minutes ago, J.T. Marlin said:

Want to get the discussion on this thread turned towards Kawhi's fantasy value for the 2018-19 season.  I am assuming that he's fully healthy and ready to go in TOR.  Definite top 8 pick IMO.  We could easily see him add 2 MPG, which would obviously boost his counting stats.  Only guys that I would take in front of him at this point are AD, Harden, Giannis, KAT, Jokic, Durant & Curry (and I may bump Kawhi over KD & Steph if everything is looking good the rest of the offseason and during TC, preseason).

His commitment and effort can be a concern. I know the logical thing is for him to go all out and prove himself to get the money but it is already been established his group has the collective IQ of Javale McGee

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1 hour ago, The Legend said:

Only came here to post the craziest RW blurb of all time:

 

:...but it's not easy for small market teams to acquire a player of Kawhi's caliber, so they'll take the OKC approach and try to woo him during his time in Canada".

 

Never those concerns about that monstrous market in Boston.

City size and market size aren't the same thing.  The actual city of Boston is smaller compared to its metropolitan area than most North American cities are compared to theirs, but people in Brookline don't suddenly become Knick fans because you live on the other side of St Mary's St.  The Boston metro is either 5mil or 8mil, depending on how you count it.  While the city of Boston and Oklahoma City are very close in size, compare the two ways of counting the OKC metro: it adds up to 1.3mil using the first method and 1.4mil using the second.  It's not even close to being close.

 

https://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets

 

Toronto would fit in between Chicago and Philadelphia- also literally multiple OKCs combined.

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Toronto is a small media market and Boston isn't. Population doesn't matter. Nobody cares about the Raptors and they care about the Celtics. 

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5 minutes ago, miasma16 said:

Toronto is a small media market and Boston isn't. Population doesn't matter. Nobody cares about the Raptors and they care about the Celtics. 

I mean the citizens of Toronto care about the Raptors.  But I understand the sentiment. 

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25 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

I mean the citizens of Toronto care about the Raptors.  But I understand the sentiment. 

I've lived in Victoria, British Columbia the last 3 years. We care about the Raptors over here too. The market size really is the whole of Canada, as hard as that is to believe. 

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7 minutes ago, roscobangs said:

I've lived in Victoria, British Columbia the last 3 years. We care about the Raptors over here too. The market size really is the whole of Canada, as hard as that is to believe. 

I know. People are just talking about the Raptors like they're a Bulls-tier franchise just because their population is akin to Chicago's, when in reality they're near the middle of the pack. The Celtics are worth about twice as much; it's not even in the same league. Metro pop is irrelevant.

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1 hour ago, miasma16 said:

Toronto is a small media market and Boston isn't. Population doesn't matter. Nobody cares about the Raptors and they care about the Celtics. 

It's not a small media market, the Jay, Leafs and Raptors are in in the top 10 of their leagues when it comes to attendance and tv viewership in their respective leagues

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1 hour ago, miasma16 said:

I know. People are just talking about the Raptors like they're a Bulls-tier franchise just because their population is akin to Chicago's, when in reality they're near the middle of the pack. The Celtics are worth about twice as much; it's not even in the same league. Metro pop is irrelevant.

If you look at their attendance and tv viewership they are in the top 10 . Raptors were 4 th in attendance, Boston was 11th

Edited by azeri98
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Forbes has Toronto ranked 12th in terms of revenue. Well below the Knicks, Lakers, Warriors, Bulls, and Celtics. I get the whole idea that it's all of Canada behind the Raptors and not just Toronto (I'm a Canadian that's not from Toronto and I root for the Raptors), but the numbers don't lie. They're a middle of the road team in terms of market size.

As far as the actual trade from the Raptors perspective, I like the deal. Poeltl's a good young player, but I don't expect him to be one of those 3 star players that team's typically need to win a championship. The 1st round pick is also protected, so it likely won't be a star either. So it really comes down to 3 years of Demar plus some young potential for 1 year of Kawhi + Danny Green.

Given the Raptors current situation, I think the deal makes sense. In the East, Boston and Philly and the Raptors biggest competition. Both of these teams are really good and both of these teams are really young. So if Demar stayed with Toronto for the 3 years, what would we really expect? Demar and Kyle are likely going to decline overtime, and although guys like OG, Siakam, Van Vleet, etc. will likely get better they're probably not going to be better than the young studs on the Celtics and Sixers. So things likely are going to get better as time passes. Meanwhile in this one year, you get Kawhi Leonard, who when healthy is one of the best players in the league. I get he said his injury history is a concern and that he said he doesn't want to be in Toronto, but he looks healthy now and he still needs to play for a contract next year. I also don't think he really dislikes Toronto that much, but that as an LA kid, moving to Canada obviously wouldn't be his first choice. So I think he can buy in for one year with the plan of signing with the Lakers next year. Also getting Danny Green is a great additional. He's trailed off in the past few years, but still has 3 point shooting capability and will likely be in the starting 5. So getting Kawhi and Green for Demar is a huge upgrade. Even if it is just for one year... it probably gives them a better chance at making the finals in the next 3 years than it would if you kept Demar.

Not to mention, trading for Kawhi does increase the chance that he signs with the Raptors next year. The Raptors can offer him more money than anybody else and he gets a full year to see what it would be like to live in Toronto. I don't think it's likely he resigns, but there is value in giving Kawhi some connection to the city. The odds of signing him probably go from 0% to maybe 5-10%. Unlikely, but not out of the question.

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4 minutes ago, azeri98 said:

It's not a small media market, the Jay, Leafs and Raptors are in in the top 10 of their leagues when it comes to attendance and tv viewership in their respective leagues

Attendance doesn't matter. I know their team valuation is in the #12-14 range. If you have viewership numbers, please cite them. Would love to see those.

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2 hours ago, J.T. Marlin said:

Want to get the discussion on this thread turned towards Kawhi's fantasy value for the 2018-19 season.  I am assuming that he's fully healthy and ready to go in TOR.  Definite top 8 pick IMO.  We could easily see him add 2 MPG, which would obviously boost his counting stats.  Only guys that I would take in front of him at this point are AD, Harden, Giannis, KAT, Jokic, Durant & Curry (and I may bump Kawhi over KD & Steph if everything is looking good the rest of the offseason and during TC, preseason).

 

I'm not bullish. I'd pick Lebron over him and those players you mentioned. There could be a decrease in his shooting efficiency as he learns to play in a new system.

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