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Offensive Line Rankings - Pro Football Focus

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On 7/12/2018 at 2:11 PM, nonstopfan said:

Good thread. I think Giants line is criminally underrated in the PFF rankings.

 

The Giants line is simply not that good. Flowers is still starting and is still awful and PFF doesn't think Solder is all that good. He is a very solid LT, but just because you paid a LT elite money, doesn't make him an elite talent. I'm also nervous about a player like Solder leaving the system in New England where he had Brady "audibiling" into the right play against a certain defense..... to Eli Manning. 

 

If things break right (Hernandez can do the job as a rookie and Flowers figures it out), I think they can be an average unit. If they get an injury/Flowers implodes for the 3rd time/Hernandez isn't quite ready this unit can be worse than last year. 

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On 7/12/2018 at 2:40 PM, CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast said:

 

i don't think i've ever used the phrase "criminally underrated" ever ... but they did sign 1 of the best run blocking left tackles in the league and also drafted a guard who's widely regarded as one of the best run blocking prospects in recent memory [google Will Hernandez, that statement has nothing to do with me being a Giants fan]. They should help.

 

As will Barkley ... and a healthy receiving corp ... stay tuned. 

Consistently coming to the defense of something over and over likely indicates that particular thing isn’t very good. 

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3 hours ago, Gohawks said:

Consistently coming to the defense of something over and over likely indicates that particular thing isn’t very good. 

 

Or that the masses are wrong. We'll start to find out the truth in 8 weeks.

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On 7/12/2018 at 8:32 PM, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

 

On another note... Texans at 32?

 

Lol. Come on PFF. I've been saying all along they still suck, but the interior is substantially better than last year. 

 

If they were 31 or whatever last year they gotta be in late 20s this year. 

 

Who would you move them ahead of?  They have major issues at OT.

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On 7/12/2018 at 7:43 PM, seanismorris said:

Is anyone else scratching their head about the high Broncos rating? I was already interested in Royce Freeman...

 

Also, Lions improved? Hmmm maybe some value for the RB rookie.

 

Many lines are good at one aspect and poor at another.  This potentially is one of them as they could be an excellent run blocking line. 

 

I think Paradis bounces back this year like Kelce did last year and McGovern takes a big step forward at RG.

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2 hours ago, 96mnc said:

 

Who would you move them ahead of?  They have major issues at OT.

 

Maybe you didn't watch this little thing called the NFL draft, but Texans grabbed a dude with trex arms in the 3rd.

 

But seriously, worst tackles in the NFL I know. 

 

At first glance I'd put them over cards and Hawks. I haven't scrutinized other teams much though. I know the Jets did some work in offseason so their 31 might be a bit low too

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On 7/12/2018 at 2:20 PM, jmausen said:

 

 

The Eagles were the #22 run blocking line last year based on yards before first contact, second level, and 3rd level yards. 

They were 12th in sacks allowed.

Same line as last year.

Ranking them #1 is laughable.

 

RUN BLOCKING PASS PROTECTION
  Team Adj. Line
Yards
RB
Yards
Power
Success
Power
Rank
Stuffed Stuffed
Rank
2nd Level
Yards
2nd Level
Rank
Open Field
Yards
Open Field
Rank
Team Rank Sacks Adjusted
Sack Rate
1 NE 5.05 4.43 65% 14 16% 3 1.35 2 0.60 20 PIT 1 24 3.9%
2 NO 4.93 5.11 69% 7 15% 1 1.30 3 1.37 1 NO 2 20 4.0%
3 LARM 4.70 4.53 50% 29 22% 23 1.42 1 0.82 11 LACH 3 18 4.2%
4 DAL 4.66 4.26 77% 3 17% 4 1.16 16 0.67 19 BAL 4 27 4.3%
5 GB 4.60 4.13 66% 11 16% 2 1.10 19 0.51 24 JAC 5 24 4.4%
6 BAL 4.36 4.22 69% 7 20% 14 1.27 5 0.70 17 MIN 6 27 4.4%
7 PIT 4.36 4.07 65% 12 17% 5 1.22 10 0.48 27 OAK 7 24 4.6%
8 ATL 4.35 4.25 64% 17 21% 20 1.25 6 0.85 10 ATL 8 24 4.8%
9 DEN 4.31 4.03 65% 15 18% 7 1.11 18 0.51 26 LARM 9 28 5.6%
10 SF 4.20 4.13 62% 20 23% 25 1.24 7 0.76 14 NYG 10 34 5.8%
11 OAK 4.17 4.14 62% 21 22% 22 1.17 14 0.73 16 MIA 11 33 5.8%
12 KC 4.14 4.66 82% 1 18% 8 1.23 9 1.17 2 PHI 12 36 6.2%
13 JAC 4.12 4.16 62% 19 19% 10 0.98 27 0.96 7 NE 13 35 6.4%
14 CLE 4.09 4.15 74% 4 19% 11 1.23 8 0.75 15 TEN 14 35 6.4%
15 NYG 4.06 4.02 50% 29 17% 6 1.02 24 0.68 18 DAL 15 32 6.4%
16 TB 4.06 3.53 65% 12 20% 17 0.93 31 0.41 30 TB 16 40 6.5%
RUN BLOCKING PASS PROTECTION
  Team Adj. Line
Yards
RB
Yards
Power
Success
Power
Rank
Stuffed Stuffed
Rank
2nd Level
Yards
2nd Level
Rank
Open Field
Yards
Open Field
Rank
Team Rank Sacks Adjusted
Sack Rate
17 ARI 4.02 3.38 68% 9 20% 13 0.90 32 0.30 32 KC 17 37 6.7%
18 IND 3.98 3.63 81% 2 20% 16 1.00 25 0.44 29 SF 18 43 6.8%
19 MIN 3.96 3.98 67% 10 21% 19 1.11 17 0.77 13 CAR 19 35 7.1%
20 HOU 3.89 3.78 63% 18 21% 18 0.99 26 0.51 25 CIN 20 40 7.2%
21 WAS 3.86 3.65 55% 27 20% 15 1.04 22 0.45 28 DET 21 47 7.5%
22 PHI 3.85 4.52 64% 16 21% 21 1.30 4 1.14 3 CLE 22 50 7.6%
23 TEN 3.85 4.00 60% 23 23% 24 1.09 21 0.90 9 CHI 23 39 7.7%
24 CIN 3.79 3.70 59% 24 18% 9 1.17 12 0.41 31 WAS 24 41 7.7%
25 CAR 3.78 3.61 72% 5 19% 12 0.94 30 0.53 22 SEA 25 43 8.1%
26 LACH 3.71 3.93 58% 25 24% 26 1.17 13 0.78 12 ARI 26 52 8.1%
27 BUF 3.67 3.96 61% 22 26% 27 1.17 15 0.90 8 NYJ 27 47 8.6%
28 CHI 3.65 4.08 58% 26 26% 28 1.20 11 0.97 6 GB 28 51 8.6%
29 NYJ 3.40 3.96 48% 31 26% 29 1.03 23 1.04 5 DEN 29 52 9.1%
30 MIA 3.26 4.09 71% 6 27% 30 1.09 20 1.07 4 HOU 30 54 9.2%
31 SEA 3.18 3.30 55% 27 30% 32 0.97 28 0.54 21 BUF 31 47 9.3%
32 DET 3.16 3.31 45% 32 27% 31 0.94 29 0.52 23 IND 32 56 10.0%
x NFL x 4.03 64% x 21% x 1.00 x 0.65 x NFL x 37 6.7%

 

They keep the QB clean. That's why they won a Superbowl my friend.

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On 7/12/2018 at 2:59 PM, CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast said:

 

Bad would be an upgrade. I don’t recall ever seeing worse OL play than Bobby Hart. Wheeler should be decent, I like him long term. Omameh may be the “weak link”, which is a great sign compared to last years group. 

 

They should be excellent (especially in run blocking) on the left side. Can’t wait to see Solder/Hernandez clearing paths for Barkley’s long TDs 

 

Solder?? What the hell has he ever done. He stinks and is grossly overpaid.

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2 hours ago, South Carolina said:

 

Solder?? What the hell has he ever done. He stinks and is grossly overpaid.

 

He doesn't stink. He's a top-10 LT who is better in run than pass blocking. Agree that he's very overpaid, but it was necessary given the turnstile Flowers has been the last 3 seasons.

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13 hours ago, joshua18 said:

 

He doesn't stink. He's a top-10 LT who is better in run than pass blocking. Agree that he's very overpaid, but it was necessary given the turnstile Flowers has been the last 3 seasons.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-best-offensive-line-options-in-free-agency

 

Solid LT who’s a significant upgrade to what they’ve previously had and is a dominant RUN blocking OL ... Solder paired with the new mauler Hernandez is going to be a significantly improved OL 

 

Overpaid? Yes, like every other free agent. Had to pull the trigger, and ending up with Solder/Hernandez on the left side will do wonders for this run game / Eli Manning

 

Barkley and a healthy Odell just may help too 

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13 hours ago, joshua18 said:

 

He doesn't stink. He's a top-10 LT who is better in run than pass blocking. Agree that he's very overpaid, but it was necessary given the turnstile Flowers has been the last 3 seasons.

 

He's not top 10. To pay him as the best lineman in football is an insane act of desperation. He wasn't even the best lineman on the Patriots last season.

 

Average salary: $15.5M (1st among OTs)
Signed 3-year, $66.4M contract in March 2018. Solder shows how much NFL teams are willing to shell out to land solid offensive linemen. And that’s all Solder is – an average left tackle, but one who’s making nearly $2 million per year more than the next-highest-paid player at his position. His contract is structured so the Giants can get out of it prior to 2020, but that doesn’t balance out the incredible yearly average of the deal.

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1 hour ago, South Carolina said:

 

He's not top 10. To pay him as the best lineman in football is an insane act of desperation. He wasn't even the best lineman on the Patriots last season.

 

Average salary: $15.5M (1st among OTs)
Signed 3-year, $66.4M contract in March 2018. Solder shows how much NFL teams are willing to shell out to land solid offensive linemen. And that’s all Solder is – an average left tackle, but one who’s making nearly $2 million per year more than the next-highest-paid player at his position. His contract is structured so the Giants can get out of it prior to 2020, but that doesn’t balance out the incredible yearly average of the deal.

 

Name 10 left tackles clearly better than Solder. I'm willing to listen.  And yes I'm aware that he's the worst LT in the NFC East. Still, please name 7 others besides those better than him.

Edited by joshua18

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Just now, joshua18 said:

 

Name 10 left tackles clearly better than Solder. I'm willing to listen.

 

Don’t waste your time ... embrace the ignore feature. 

 

There arent 10 better LTs in the league, and there are very few tackles (left or right) who run block better than him. 

 

These are just facts. Solder is overpaid, he is not “elite”, but he’s a solid pass protector who dominates in the run game and is a significant upgrade to the Giants OL.

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12 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

Name 10 left tackles clearly better than Solder. I'm willing to listen.  And yes I'm aware that he's the worst LT in the NFC East. Still, please name 7 others besides those better than him.

 

7 minutes ago, CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast said:

 

Don’t waste your time ... embrace the ignore feature. 

 

There arent 10 better LTs in the league, and there are very few tackles (left or right) who run block better than him. 

 

These are just facts. Solder is overpaid, he is not “elite”, but he’s a solid pass protector who dominates in the run game and is a significant upgrade to the Giants OL.

 

I don't think I could name 10 LTs better than Solder necessarily, I could put him in a tier with others around the same talent but he'd crack my top 10 if I were making a rankings I would think. 

 

the three in the East (Smith, Peters, Williams), Baktiahri, Whitworth, Staley I think are the ones I'd put over. I'd put him in the tier with Penn (if healthy/at high level it's easily Penn, worried about 35), Matthews, Lewan, Leno (who I think Solder is actually pretty similarly talented to, other than size, in how they play/what they do well/level of performance), Armstead/Glenn could be similar performance players if we could make it like Madden and turn injuries off. 

 

I definitely don't think if I was ranking 1-32 though that I could find 10 LTs that I would rank over him. I do think he's in the 6-9 range. Just wanted to think thru it as an exercise and having the PFF list in front of me makes it easy to have all the starters right in front of me. 

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I'd put Solder over Whitworth. Worst graded game in several season in their playoff loss to ATL and entering his age-37 season. 

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The upgrade from Flowers to Solder at left tackle is going to pay for itself 

 

I’ll gladly take a left tackle who can pass protect fairly well and dominate in the run game - which is what the Giants want to do a lot more of on offense this year 

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2 hours ago, joshua18 said:

 

Name 10 left tackles clearly better than Solder. I'm willing to listen.  And yes I'm aware that he's the worst LT in the NFC East. Still, please name 7 others besides those better than him.

 

Have you not watched him? He a good run blocker but a turnstile in the passing game. You already acknowledged he's the worst LT in the East, and it's not close.

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1 hour ago, South Carolina said:

 

Have you not watched him? He a good run blocker but a turnstile in the passing game. You already acknowledged he's the worst LT in the East, and it's not close.

 

I asked you to name 7 other LTs better than Solder and you can't do it. 

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On 7/15/2018 at 1:54 PM, joshua18 said:

 

I asked you to name 7 other LTs better than Solder and you can't do it. 

 

All three NFC East guys. 

Bakharti

Armstead

Lewan

Whitworth (although I readily admit he's at an age where the wheels could just fall off.  But the same could be said for any aging NFLer).

Staley

Thomas

Glenn

Matthews

Decker

Stanley

 

 

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On 7/14/2018 at 1:24 AM, wideopen21 said:

 

The Giants line is simply not that good. Flowers is still starting and is still awful and PFF doesn't think Solder is all that good. He is a very solid LT, but just because you paid a LT elite money, doesn't make him an elite talent. I'm also nervous about a player like Solder leaving the system in New England where he had Brady "audibiling" into the right play against a certain defense..... to Eli Manning. 

 

If things break right (Hernandez can do the job as a rookie and Flowers figures it out), I think they can be an average unit. If they get an injury/Flowers implodes for the 3rd time/Hernandez isn't quite ready this unit can be worse than last year. 

 

1. No one said Solder is an “elite LT”- he is, without a doubt, an excellent (dare I say “elite”) RUN BLOCKER and a significant upgrade at the position - that is not even debatable. He’s a good LT, and an excellent run blocker. 

 

2. Hernandez is a rookie, but universally regarded as a day 1 impact starter considered by many to be one of the best run blocking prospects in years 

 

3. Flowers is not guaranteed a starting spot 

 

4. “Average units” go to the playoffs. An “average” unit would be light years ahead of last year’s group.

 

5. It is almost impossible to perform worse than 2017’s OL. No more Bobby Hart / John Jerry getting ragdolled every run play or missing simple stunts in pass protection. 

 

 

Edited by CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast

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9 hours ago, 96mnc said:

 

 

All three NFC East guys. 

Bakharti

Armstead

Lewan

Whitworth (although I readily admit he's at an age where the wheels could just fall off.  But the same could be said for any aging NFLer).

Staley

Thomas

Glenn

Matthews

Decker

Stanley

 

 

 

Finally someone answers :)

 

Appreciate the info. I would take Solder over Whitworth, Matthews (horrid as a rookie but was covered up because of his lineage; still not great) and Glenn (a great upgrade for CIN, but not durable). Joe Thomas is retired.

 

Decker is a toss-up; not sure if he's the same player after the shoulder surgery.

 

3 NFC East, GB, NO, TEN, SF, BAL = #9-10, which is about right for Solder. 

 

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Nate Solder does not need to be an “elite left tackle” to make a significant impact

 

1. Hes a really good left tackle, who excels in the run game, so he will.

 

2. 2 piles of rocks would’ve been more effective than Flowers/Hart at tackle last year. 

 

Hes going to make a huge impact, not because he’s Pace/Ogden 2.0, but because last years tackle play was the worst I’ve ever seen (and Hart was actually worse than Flowers) 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealMNchiefsfan/status/985950763217190912/video/1

 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/SportsSturm/status/908015857271525376/photo/1

 

sadly, these weren’t just 2 “really bad snaps”, more like a repeated weekly occurrence 

Edited by CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast

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3 hours ago, CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast said:

 

1. No one said Solder is an “elite LT”- he is, without a doubt, an excellent (dare I say “elite”) RUN BLOCKER and a significant upgrade at the position - that is not even debatable. He’s a good LT, and an excellent run blocker. 

 

2. Hernandez is a rookie, but universally regarded as a day 1 impact starter considered by many to be one of the best run blocking prospects in years 

 

3. Flowers is not guaranteed a starting spot 

 

4. “Average units” go to the playoffs. An “average” unit would be light years ahead of last year’s group.

 

5. It is almost impossible to perform worse than 2017’s OL. No more Bobby Hart / John Jerry getting ragdolled every run play or missing simple stunts in pass protection. 

 

 

 

So in a passing league,  you've convinced me that the Giants are building a run first Oline despite having a QB that curls up into a ball at the first sign of pressure. That is assuming Hernandez is good. Chance Warmack and Jonathan Cooper and numerous other rookies were universally regarded as X and turn out to be Y. 

 

I never said this Oline can't be average. I actually said that it could be average, but it needs a bunch of things to break for them. A rookie. Flowers. health (since they have no depth)

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11 minutes ago, wideopen21 said:

 

So in a passing league,  you've convinced me that the Giants are building a run first Oline despite having a QB that curls up into a ball at the first sign of pressure. That is assuming Hernandez is good. Chance Warmack and Jonathan Cooper and numerous other rookies were universally regarded as X and turn out to be Y. 

 

I never said this Oline can't be average. I actually said that it could be average, but it needs a bunch of things to break for them. A rookie. Flowers. health (since they have no depth)

 

Ah yes, the “passing league” BS ... expect nothing less from a fantasy football forum 

 

In reality football, running the ball is still actually quite important. 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing

 

Weird how so many of the best teams last year ran the ball so well. 

 

Oh, and Hernandez isn’t just a mauler in the run game - interesting how you somehow spin it into a negative. 

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-giants-select-will-hernandez-34th-overall

 

For the record, I think the Giants line will be mediocre. Unfortunately, that’s a huge improvement from last year which is all I can ask for - Barkley and a healthy Odell should cover up some of the deficiencies 

 

Its amusing how everyone faps over Dallas’ OL, despite the fact it’s actually mediocre in pass protection. Ya know, “passing league” blah blah blah (relax, I think Dallas OL is great and much better than the Giants’)

Edited by CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast

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On 7/15/2018 at 4:55 AM, South Carolina said:

 

He's not top 10. To pay him as the best lineman in football is an insane act of desperation. He wasn't even the best lineman on the Patriots last season.

 

Average salary: $15.5M (1st among OTs)
Signed 3-year, $66.4M contract in March 2018. Solder shows how much NFL teams are willing to shell out to land solid offensive linemen. And that’s all Solder is – an average left tackle, but one who’s making nearly $2 million per year more than the next-highest-paid player at his position. His contract is structured so the Giants can get out of it prior to 2020, but that doesn’t balance out the incredible yearly average of the deal.

By the time his contract is up, Solder will probably not even be in the top 5 highest paid OT's. The "highest paid" designations are silly to focus on. Newer, higher $$$ deals pop up at every position every year. Additionally, do we really have to explain Free Agency to you? It's called a market. One team had a severe need for a tackle and paid up to secure his services. 

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