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Anthony Davis Season Outlook 2018-2019

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28 minutes ago, tremixt said:

 

I don't understand this at all.

 

NO had 7 years with AD. If he wants to move on, move on.

 

I'm not really sure why this is an issue. The NBA seems to be the only major sport, I can think of, where superstars teaming up with other superstars elicits so many negative emotions. 

 

It gets pretty old, it's blatantly obvious which posters have an aggressive bias against certain players especially. Never gets old here on rw forums. 

 

He should play wherever he wants, even if it's Golden State.  

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1 minute ago, tremixt said:

 

I don't understand this at all.

 

NO had 7 years with AD. If he wants to move on, move on.

 

I'm not really sure why this is an issue. The NBA seems to be the only major sport, I can think of, where superstars teaming up with other superstars elicits so many negative emotions. 

Ok. You told the other players, you told the team staff, you told the GMs, you did it right. But the issue here is that your agent made public statement, when you are under contract with the organisation. So many guys knew last week, but the info didn`t leak, before Rich Paul went to Woj (maybe LBJ`s camp expected the info to be leaked already). And it`s laughable that he made it for "the good of the team`s future".

 

In the end, i don`t get that narrative "the players should dictate" at all and think that kills the beauty of the sport, but that`s another topic. The players are employees, not employers. There should be some sort of ethics from the players, because they are dependent on these teams. NOLA did nothing to keep AD, but they pay his salary, so if they decide to bring Smush Parker to be starting PG, he has no choice. Noone forced him to sign the contract. If he wants to dictate the rules - try like LBJ and KD - sign 1 year contracts and the owner will be in his hands. But when he signed big deal for crazy money, i didn`t hear that he wants to win and prioritizes the ring. He can leave, when the contract is over, if the Pels decide that and he can`t say a word, no matter of what the consequences for the team will be.

 

So, if my favorite team trade all of their young players for him and in 2020 he signs new long-term contract, how i will be sure that in the next season or two, when LBJ is retired and the team looks like today`s Cavs, he will not take the same strategy?

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Let's take a look from star player's perspective.

You don't become a star, all-NBA level player if you are not extremely competitive.  If you disgagree, name one.

If such player really wants to win (and I believe he does), you look at your best  chance to win.
Potential teammates, their age, franchise history, etc.

Right now media (or LBJ) is  telling us that AD wants to be a Laker.  It is intersting story, but it will not happen.
Same narrative was with George last year. Still with OKC.  Paul went to Houston.  Kawhi is in Toronto and  I think he will sign with them.
 
 Why do I think AD  will not be a Laker?
 Lakers are in no position to be a real contender for NBA championship any time soon.

 In the West,  GS is not going anywhere. Lakers have  very little chance to make it to the conference finals in next 1 - 2 years.
 OKC, Hou, SA, Por, Uta, Den... take you pick who will lose to GS in conference finals.
 
In the  East, there are 3 really good teams that can make it to the finals (Boston, Toronto, Bucks).
Add AD to any of them, and  that team can book tickets to NBA finals for the next couple years
I think AD will end in Boston this summer.   Ainge knows that this current core is not good enough to beat GS.
Plus, Boston will have lots of free agents in 2020.  Add AD for whatever works (if NO wants Tatum, just say yes, AD  is better than Tatum will ever be)

And in 2020, when AD is free agent he will look at his trip to the finals and say to himself:
A: "That was nice experience. Now let me catch a flight to LA to play with 36 year old LeBron and spend prime  of my career loosing in first round"
B: "That was nice experience. Now let me  sign that contract so we can do it every year".

What option do you chose?

Note for Lakers fans:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

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6 minutes ago, montanski said:

Ok. You told the other players, you told the team staff, you told the GMs, you did it right. But the issue here is that your agent made public statement, when you are under contract with the organisation. So many guys knew last week, but the info didn`t leak, before Rich Paul went to Woj (maybe LBJ`s camp expected the info to be leaked already). And it`s laughable that he made it for "the good of the team`s future".

 

In the end, i don`t get that narrative "the players should dictate" at all and think that kills the beauty of the sport, but that`s another topic. The players are employees, not employers. There should be some sort of ethics from the players, because they are dependent on these teams. NOLA did nothing to keep AD, but they pay his salary, so if they decide to bring Smush Parker to be starting PG, he has no choice. Noone forced him to sign the contract. If he wants to dictate the rules - try like LBJ and KD - sign 1 year contracts and the owner will be in his hands. But when he signed big deal for crazy money, i didn`t hear that he wants to win and prioritizes the ring. He can leave, when the contract is over, if the Pels decide that and he can`t say a word, no matter of what the consequences for the team will be.

 

So, if my favorite team trade all of their young players for him and in 2020 he signs new long-term contract, how i will be sure that in the next season or two, when LBJ is retired and the team looks like today`s Cavs, he will not take the same strategy?

They arent typical employees.  They are business partners with team ownership.  Their talents generate a crap load of money, so dont give me that employee bs.  Someone that works a lame a** 9 to 5 is an employee.  Not someone that has a top 1% talent many would kill to have.  

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9 minutes ago, RingMyBell said:

They arent typical employees.  They are business partners with team ownership.  Their talents generate a crap load of money, so dont give me that employee bs.  Someone that works a lame a** 9 to 5 is an employee.  Not someone that has a top 1% talent many would kill to have.  

If your boss decides whether you will play or not, you are employee. Doesn`t matter if you are MJ talent. The talent of the guy who works from 9 to 5 generates also money, in some cases way bigger than the money in basketball or any other sport. Partners share the risk and the profit. If AD goes down tomorrow (like DC last year), all the interested teams will forget about him in just a second. But the team will find the next kid in the draft/via trade/via FA. The owners need the players to generate money, but the players are expendable and can be replaced easily. On the other hand, the owners are here until they die or are Donald Sterling.

Edited by montanski
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11 minutes ago, RingMyBell said:

They arent typical employees.  They are business partners with team ownership.  Their talents generate a crap load of money, so dont give me that employee bs.  Someone that works a lame a** 9 to 5 is an employee.  Not someone that has a top 1% talent many would kill to have.  

I don’t think you know the definition of “employee”.  An employee is anyone who exchanges their labor power for capital.  A capitalist is someone who owns the means of production or business and uses the employees to produce capital (make money). It doesn’t matter if you make $10 or an hour or 20 million dollars a year, if you don’t own the thing, you’re an employee. 

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2 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

I don’t think you know the definition of “employee”.  An employee is anyone who exchanges their labor power for capital.  A capitalist is someone who owns the means of production or business and uses the employees to produce capital (make money). It doesn’t matter if you make $10 or an hour or 20 million dollars a year, if you don’t own the thing, you’re an employee. 

tenor.gif?itemid=8512363

I think this guy would be for more power for the players. He would be awesome president of National Basketball Players Association.

:lol::lol::lol:

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1 minute ago, StifleTower2 said:

I don’t think you know the definition of “employee”.  An employee is anyone who exchanges their labor power for capital.  A capitalist is someone who owns the means of production or business and uses the employees to produce capital (make money). It doesn’t matter if you make $10 or an hour or 20 million dollars a year, if you don’t own the thing, you’re an employee. 

 

NBA players are not employees, they are independent contractors. 

 

NBA owners don't own NBA players - they just own the arena, team facilities, and league infrastructure. If the top NBA players decide to form their own co-op league and share revenues among themselves, you will stop watching the NBA. NBA players technically own the capitals (their own body and skills) that's worth millions of dollars, and to maximize its earning potential they partner with the team owners, who provide infrastructure, to have a stage to perform on. 

 

Maybe in the 60-90's you can call NBA players employees, but I think Lebron has changed this dynamic. Today a player like Lebron can give a billionaire like Dan Gilbert the finger, leave the team, and devalue Gilbert's team by 1/3 in an instant. It's the player's league now, owners are just the fat old men who are chosen by the players to pay them $20-40 million a year.

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1 minute ago, bballshinobi said:

 

NBA players are not employees, they are independent contractors. 

 

NBA owners don't own NBA players - they just own the arena, team facilities, and league infrastructure. If the top NBA players decide to form their own co-op league and share revenues among themselves, you will stop watching the NBA. NBA players technically own the capitals (their own body and skills) that's worth millions of dollars, and to maximize its earning potential they partner with the team owners, who provide infrastructure, to have a stage to perform on. 

 

Maybe in the 60-90's you can call NBA players employees, but I think Lebron has changed this dynamic. Today a player like Lebron can give a billionaire like Dan Gilbert the finger, leave the team, and devalue Gilbert's team by 1/3 in an instant. It's the player's league now, owners are just the fat old men who are chosen by the players to pay them $20-40 million a year.

I have one question for you. Can LeBron leave his team today on his own? Just yes or no.

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Just now, montanski said:

I have one question for you. Can LeBron leave his team today on his own? Just yes or no.

 

Like retirement? Or just refuse to play? What do you mean?

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34 minutes ago, montanski said:

Ok. You told the other players, you told the team staff, you told the GMs, you did it right. But the issue here is that your agent made public statement, when you are under contract with the organisation. So many guys knew last week, but the info didn`t leak, before Rich Paul went to Woj (maybe LBJ`s camp expected the info to be leaked already). And it`s laughable that he made it for "the good of the team`s future".

 

In the end, i don`t get that narrative "the players should dictate" at all and think that kills the beauty of the sport, but that`s another topic. The players are employees, not employers. There should be some sort of ethics from the players, because they are dependent on these teams. NOLA did nothing to keep AD, but they pay his salary, so if they decide to bring Smush Parker to be starting PG, he has no choice. Noone forced him to sign the contract. If he wants to dictate the rules - try like LBJ and KD - sign 1 year contracts and the owner will be in his hands. But when he signed big deal for crazy money, i didn`t hear that he wants to win and prioritizes the ring. He can leave, when the contract is over, if the Pels decide that and he can`t say a word, no matter of what the consequences for the team will be.

 

So, if my favorite team trade all of their young players for him and in 2020 he signs new long-term contract, how i will be sure that in the next season or two, when LBJ is retired and the team looks like today`s Cavs, he will not take the same strategy?

 

I stopped at "ethics," and "beauty of the sport." Dynasties and NBA stars dictating what they want has been a thing since the 70's. The only difference now is access to players and their agents have opened up 100000%.

 

 This isn't fantasy. It's no different than those in business, hospitals, law firms, public officials holding office. The *stars* of each industry usually do dictate where they work and with who they work with. That is life. Stop expecting professional athletes to hold a higher standard. You're going to be disappointed. 

 

Also, don't forget, NBA teams, leak information about wanting to get rid of players and coaches all the time. It's really not a big deal. 

Edited by tremixt

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1 minute ago, montanski said:

I have one question for you. Can LeBron leave his team today on his own? Just yes or no.

5 minutes ago, bballshinobi said:

 

NBA players are not employees, they are independent contractors. 

 

NBA owners don't own NBA players - they just own the arena, team facilities, and league infrastructure. If the top NBA players decide to form their own co-op league and share revenues among themselves, you will stop watching the NBA. NBA players technically own the capitals (their own body and skills) that's worth millions of dollars, and to maximize its earning potential they partner with the team owners, who provide infrastructure, to have a stage to perform on. 

 

Maybe in the 60-90's you can call NBA players employees, but I think Lebron has changed this dynamic. Today a player like Lebron can give a billionaire like Dan Gilbert the finger, leave the team, and devalue Gilbert's team by 1/3 in an instant. It's the player's league now, owners are just the fat old men who are chosen by the players to pay them $20-40 million a year.

Wow, someone that gets it.

 

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Just now, bballshinobi said:

 

Like retirement? Or just refuse to play? What do you mean?

You gave the example with leaving Dan Gilbert. Can he leave Lakers to join another team today on his own?

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1 minute ago, montanski said:

You gave the example with leaving Dan Gilbert. Can he leave Lakers to join another team today on his own?

He can force his way out if he wanted to.

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33 minutes ago, Gile Pile said:

Let's take a look from star player's perspective.

You don't become a star, all-NBA level player if you are not extremely competitive.  If you disgagree, name one.

If such player really wants to win (and I believe he does), you look at your best  chance to win.
Potential teammates, their age, franchise history, etc.

Right now media (or LBJ) is  telling us that AD wants to be a Laker.  It is intersting story, but it will not happen.
Same narrative was with George last year. Still with OKC.  Paul went to Houston.  Kawhi is in Toronto and  I think he will sign with them.
 
 Why do I think AD  will not be a Laker?
 Lakers are in no position to be a real contender for NBA championship any time soon.

 In the West,  GS is not going anywhere. Lakers have  very little chance to make it to the conference finals in next 1 - 2 years.
 OKC, Hou, SA, Por, Uta, Den... take you pick who will lose to GS in conference finals.
 
In the  East, there are 3 really good teams that can make it to the finals (Boston, Toronto, Bucks).
Add AD to any of them, and  that team can book tickets to NBA finals for the next couple years
I think AD will end in Boston this summer.   Ainge knows that this current core is not good enough to beat GS.
Plus, Boston will have lots of free agents in 2020.  Add AD for whatever works (if NO wants Tatum, just say yes, AD  is better than Tatum will ever be)

And in 2020, when AD is free agent he will look at his trip to the finals and say to himself:
A: "That was nice experience. Now let me catch a flight to LA to play with 36 year old LeBron and spend prime  of my career loosing in first round"
B: "That was nice experience. Now let me  sign that contract so we can do it every year".

What option do you chose?

Note for Lakers fans:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

I suppose it’s conveniant to ignore that a healthy Lakers team was a top 5 seed in the west before injuries hit. You also ignore the real possibility Lakers form a big 3 and have Lebron, Davis, and another all star. 

 

No one expects Lakers to compete this season but Warriors have 3 guys that may leave this offseason. I doubt they all leave but Lakers have a legitimate shot to contend after this season if all goes right.

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Just now, RingMyBell said:

He can force his way out if he wanted to.

There are obvious legal reasons a team would have to wait before they can sign him, but a team isnt going to lose millions with an unhappy star.  His contract is guaranteed so, if you bench or fine him, he still gets alot of free money

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Just now, montanski said:

You gave the example with leaving Dan Gilbert. Can he leave Lakers to join another team today on his own?

 

He can't join another NBA team because NBA is actually one entity, but he can definitely leave today and join MLB, NFL, Euro league, my rec league.

 

I know you are trying to make the point that "see, he can't leave Lakers today and join the Celtics, so he's an employee", but the fact of the matter is that it's not that he can't, but because NBA is one entity and Celtics and Lakers won't do that to each other as that will only harm the league as a whole. However, a different entity won't have reservation regarding poaching a player. 

 

So yes, Lebron can definitely leave the Lakers / the NBA and join another team (in another league) if he wants to. He can also retire, which is also a form of "leaving his team" that you alluded to.

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Just now, RingMyBell said:

There are obvious legal reasons a team would have to wait before they can sign him, but a team isnt going to lose millions with an unhappy star.  His contract is guaranteed so, if you bench or fine him, he still gets alot of free money

Kawhi forced his way out of san antonio.  These guys arent slaves, even if you want them to be 

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If anything the closest comp is independent contractor within a heavily regulated trade union.  They might not be “employees” but they’re damn sure not owners.  Damn sure.  If they’re independent contractors they’re so heavily regulated and restricted that they have the freedom of employees. 

Edited by StifleTower2

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Why are we having this debate about employee/slave/independent contractor again?

 

Is it because we were debating about whether it was morally ethical for Anthony Davis to demand a trade when he is still under contract?

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5 minutes ago, bballshinobi said:

 

He can't join another NBA team because NBA is actually one entity, but he can definitely leave today and join MLB, NFL, Euro league, my rec league.

 

I know you are trying to make the point that "see, he can't leave Lakers today and join the Celtics, so he's an employee", but the fact of the matter is that it's not that he can't, but because NBA is one entity and Celtics and Lakers won't do that to each other as that will only harm the league as a whole. However, a different entity won't have reservation regarding poaching a player. 

 

So yes, Lebron can definitely leave the Lakers / the NBA and join another team (in another league) if he wants to. He can also retire, which is also a form of "leaving his team" that you alluded to.

Actually he’s contractually obligated to play for the Lakers.  I haven’t read their contract but I bet there’s remedies for breach on the players part, eg refusing to play.  Merely because they work under a contract doesn’t mean they’re contractors.  Employees can work under contracts too.  I worked under three year contracts my entire career, I didn’t have the legal status of a contractor, I was an employee.  I actually don’t know how the NBA is run so mea culpa but I bet if I could take a look at their contracts they would have the legal right of an employee.

Edited by StifleTower2

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1 minute ago, RingMyBell said:

Kawhi forced his way out of san antonio.  These guys arent slaves, even if you want them to be 

Just don`t start with that slave narrative, please. Slave who makes 30-40 millions of dollars only as a salary. :lol:

By the way, how exactly you come to conclusion that i want the players to be slaves? :lol:

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3 minutes ago, bballshinobi said:

Why are we having this debate about employee/slave/independent contractor again?

 

Is it because we were debating about whether it was morally ethical for Anthony Davis to demand a trade when he is still under contract?

Dunno I was high when the conversation began and simply joined in.  

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3 minutes ago, bballshinobi said:

Why are we having this debate about employee/slave/independent contractor again?

 

Is it because we were debating about whether it was morally ethical for Anthony Davis to demand a trade when he is still under contract?

My fault!

I just posted to some guy, who wanted superstars to dictate the league, that i have issue only with the fact that AD`s agent publicly made a statement, when the team was already informed and the info didn`t leake. I didn`t know that i will become some "slave-holder of the year" :lol:. From now, only for AD`s outlook ROS. I promise!

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I'm increasingly bearish right now.

 

AD's not getting traded before the deadline.

 

That means the next time he rolls an ankle, or gets a charley horse....gone for the year.

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