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travis10425

Kamara or Barkley? .5 ppr

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1 hour ago, ccimore said:

No, but do you expect him to produce at the same level of efficiency that he did last year?   Unless he is the most efficient running back in NFL history, he is due for regression.  

 

Most people expect AK's volume to increase, perhaps significantly. He can see a normal regression in efficiency and still be just as valuable in fantasy as he was last season, if not more so. 

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19 hours ago, c27 said:

I see him getting injured. Easy decision = Barkley > Kamara

 

He's no more likely to get injured than Barkley who couldn't even make it out of the preseason without screwing up his hamstring.  Say what you want but Kamara isn't nursing a damaged hamstring. 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, c27 said:

It's the same  situation as Zeke back in 2016 with  a guaranteed workload and no threatening  backup RBs on  the  roster except Barkley is a superior pass catcher. 

 

Kamara is not an every down workhouse back and Sean Payton will not use him as  such. You're getting a guy who is built for a workload,  is going to get a guaranteed lion's share,  and is just as dangerous in  the pass game as Kamara.

 

This is regardless of if he wants Ingram in the middle rounds or not.

 

Let's do like everyone else does and not project injury. Barkley still has more UPSIDE than Kamara does this year and that cannot be debated.

The only think Barkley has in common with the Zeke situation is that they are both top 5 rookies.  Zeke had an elite offensive line with 5 pro bowl caliber starters.  He also had a rookie QB who struggles to throw the ball down the field.  The Giants on the other hand have a deep set of pass catchers and an offensive line that was as bad as any in the league last year.  Yeah they added a couple players in hopes to fix that dumpster fire but there is no comparing that mess to the mess that blocked for Zeke.

 

The Barkley hype is unlike anything we've ever seen before. Dude couldn't even stay on the field for 1/4 of a preseason and he's being talked about like he's the next LT.  

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19 hours ago, Jaw1 said:

 

 

You are not incorrect in this yes by taking both you are lowering your theoretical upside but you are also significantly increasing your floor. As demonstrated last season the upside is still really really good and I don't see the Saints being that much worse so I think the floor isn't significantly off. Barkley and Ingram does have a higher upside than Barkley and Kamara but it also has a lower floor. It comes down to personal preference on which you prefer but this early in the draft I like more certainty as there is plenty of time for upside later. The only scenario where both Kamara and Ingram flop is if they both get injured or the Saints take a significant step back. I'll take those odds as its about as close to a certainty as you are going to get in fantasy football. 

 

Well, essentially I assume by the upside and floor you're talking more about protecting yourself from injury risk. So I think it's best to break it down:

 

Barkley+Ingram; Barkley gets injured--you have no upside, and Ingram is still just RB1b [possible RB2 in FF] in NO. You've lost your clear-cut bellcow RB1 without a handcuff

Barkley+Ingram; Kamara gets injured--HUGE upside, as you now have RB1 in NYG and a clear-cut RB1 in NO. 

Barkley+Ingram; Ingram gets injured--No real change. If you were taking Ingram as an RB2/Flex, you might have to make some roster moves.

 

Kamara+Ingram; Barkley gets injured--you have no upside and don't change your floor. You have at best two RB1s on your roster, at worst two RB2s.

Kamara+Ingram; Kamara gets injured--you replace a committee back with a clear-cut RB1. Essentially you probably haven't changed your overall scoring much, but your 1st round pick is now replaced with someone who will likely get 1st round production.

Kamara+Ingram; Ingram gets injured--If Kamara was getting RBBC workload, he now becomes clear-cut RB1. If he was already getting RB1 workload, you haven't lost much. 

 

I don't see much upside for Barkley+Ingram unless you get Ingram cheap, and I'm not sure he's going cheap enough. The only REAL upside is if Kamara gets injured. He's currently projected to the end of the 4th. However, if your league mates are going RB-RB during the draft and he slips into the mid-5th or so, that's probably worth it.

 

Kamara+Ingram probably makes more sense, but I'd still pick some other 4th round options before him. Kamara (1) and Ingram (5) makes some sense, because they might both put up startable production and you're effectively handcuffing your 1st rounder with a pick that has WAY more standalone value than a typical handcuff.

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2 minutes ago, kevinwayne20 said:

The Barkley hype is unlike anything we've ever seen before. Dude couldn't even stay on the field for 1/4 of a preseason and he's being talked about like he's the next LT.  

 

It's nothing we haven't seen a hundred times. New money latches onto these shiny rookie backs who impress in TC, preseason, or (in this case) the combine and then they refuse to be swayed from their rigid belief that some kid who has never played an NFL down is 100% can't miss. Remember when Ameer Abdullah was going in the second round a couple years ago? The name Bishop Sankey ring a bell? Fantasy owners have such short memories. 

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BTW all that said, I'd take Barkley. I think he's got guaranteed volume that you can't say for Kamara. 

 

My top 8 RB:

Bell

DJ (PPR) / Gurley (Std)

Gurley (PPR) / DJ (Std)

Zeke

Fournette

Gordon

Barkley

Kamara

 

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Just now, SenatorSpaceman said:

 

It's nothing we haven't seen a hundred times. New money latches onto these shiny rookie backs who impress in TC, preseason, or (in this case) the combine and then they refuse to be swayed from their rigid belief that some kid who has never played an NFL down is 100% can't miss. Remember when Ameer Abdullah was going in the second round a couple years ago? The name Bishop Sankey ring a bell? Fantasy owners have such short memories. 

I  didn't have stock in either of those but I do know what you are talking about.  I  gave up a ton in my long standing keeper league ($) to move up for Darren McFadden (who was every bit the NFL prospect) back in 08 and it costed me SEASONs. 

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4 minutes ago, SenatorSpaceman said:

 

It's nothing we haven't seen a hundred times. New money latches onto these shiny rookie backs who impress in TC, preseason, or (in this case) the combine and then they refuse to be swayed from their rigid belief that some kid who has never played an NFL down is 100% can't miss. Remember when Ameer Abdullah was going in the second round a couple years ago? The name Bishop Sankey ring a bell? Fantasy owners have such short memories. 

 

I'm a Big Ten guy, so I remember Abdullah at Nebraska and I remember Barkley at Penn State. Barkley is a much more complete back. I think he even understands pass pro, which is always an issue with players making the college->NFL transition. I didn't really follow Sankey, so take the below FWIW.

 

Abdullah was a mid 2nd round NFL pick. So was Sankey. Barkley was the second overall pick.

 

Abdullah was coming into a timeshare in Detroit. Sankey got ~half of the Titans rushing attempts and <half of their RB receptions. Barkley is coming in to be the workhorse back.

 

So I don't think they're truly analogous in any way. Even if you think there's any comparison in talent, Barkley's situation is WAY better than Abdullah or Sankey.

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1 hour ago, bwarbiany said:

 

Well, essentially I assume by the upside and floor you're talking more about protecting yourself from injury risk. So I think it's best to break it down:

 

Barkley+Ingram; Barkley gets injured--you have no upside, and Ingram is still just RB1b [possible RB2 in FF] in NO. You've lost your clear-cut bellcow RB1 without a handcuff

Barkley+Ingram; Kamara gets injured--HUGE upside, as you now have RB1 in NYG and a clear-cut RB1 in NO. 

Barkley+Ingram; Ingram gets injured--No real change. If you were taking Ingram as an RB2/Flex, you might have to make some roster moves.

 

Kamara+Ingram; Barkley gets injured--you have no upside and don't change your floor. You have at best two RB1s on your roster, at worst two RB2s.

Kamara+Ingram; Kamara gets injured--you replace a committee back with a clear-cut RB1. Essentially you probably haven't changed your overall scoring much, but your 1st round pick is now replaced with someone who will likely get 1st round production.

Kamara+Ingram; Ingram gets injured--If Kamara was getting RBBC workload, he now becomes clear-cut RB1. If he was already getting RB1 workload, you haven't lost much. 

 

I don't see much upside for Barkley+Ingram unless you get Ingram cheap, and I'm not sure he's going cheap enough. The only REAL upside is if Kamara gets injured. He's currently projected to the end of the 4th. However, if your league mates are going RB-RB during the draft and he slips into the mid-5th or so, that's probably worth it.

 

Kamara+Ingram probably makes more sense, but I'd still pick some other 4th round options before him. Kamara (1) and Ingram (5) makes some sense, because they might both put up startable production and you're effectively handcuffing your 1st rounder with a pick that has WAY more standalone value than a typical handcuff.

 

Not only injury risk but performance risk. Basically I'm fairly confident the Saints will be one of the top offenses and their RB position will score the most fantasy points but it isn't 100% clear what the distribution will be. Some think Kamara will see significantly more work in his 2nd season especially since he has an "audition" for a bigger role with Ingram out and become the clear lead back with and leave Ingram with less than 30% of the work. Some think that the breakdown will stay roughly the same and others have their crystal ball showing Kamara getting more work initially only to get injured. I'm more in the 2nd category as I think the breakdown will be roughly the same with Kamara seeing  around 60% and Ingram around 40%. Based off that alone I wouldn't be nearly as confident taking Kamara at #6 which is why I proposed taking Ingram too since I like him in the 5th round anyway. I'm not too confident in how things will breakdown between the two of them but I'm confident enough in the Saints backfield at large to invest a 1st and even a 4th (fine paying a premium for Ingram to make sure I get him since it makes me much more confident about Kamara pick).

 

This obviously doesn't have the same type of upside as taking 2 RBs that aren't directly competing for carries but I think it absolutely minimizes downside as I think both the players and offense are too good to just completely bust and both would need to get injured to see a significant downgrade. The ceiling as shown last season is pretty darn good too as 2 RB1s and for a 1st and a 4th I'm not sure you can get a better combo of floor and ceiling than that. 

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4 hours ago, SenatorSpaceman said:

 

Most people expect AK's volume to increase, perhaps significantly. He can see a normal regression in efficiency and still be just as valuable in fantasy as he was last season, if not more so. 

What is your idea of normal regression in efficiency? I dont think anyone is expecting him to have the volume that Barkley will receive.  How much more efficient do you expect Kamara to be than Barkley?

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This is the most difficult choice in the entire draft.  The choice between Barkley and Kamara at 6.  And neither choice is wrong.

 

The correct answer is all of the above.  Both are going to have a huge year.

 

Barkley is going to have an enormous workload, but his offensive line is inferior and his QB is old and has a noodle arm now.

 

Kamara should see an increased workload over last year, the Saints have become more of a ball control team with good defense and Kamara has a superior offensive line.

 

I like Kamara's situation better, but Barkley's workload should be off the charts.  On the field every down.  I'd probably still go with Barkley, but choosing Kamara is not wrong.

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On 8/28/2018 at 5:45 PM, c27 said:

Barkley with confidence

On 8/28/2018 at 7:53 PM, SenatorSpaceman said:

 

 

 

Lmao. You win, dude. I don't know if we've debated in the past or something. You are kind of indicating that you know me but I don't think I've ever noticed you. I'm done though. I'm kind of going out of my way to remain fact-based and somewhat respectful while you want to name-call everyone and use hyperbole. I don't know why you're so angry but I wish you luck this year brother. Peace. 

He who laughs last, laughs loudest 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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On 8/29/2018 at 4:03 PM, SenatorSpaceman said:

 

It's nothing we haven't seen a hundred times. New money latches onto these shiny rookie backs who impress in TC, preseason, or (in this case) the combine and then they refuse to be swayed from their rigid belief that some kid who has never played an NFL down is 100% can't miss. Remember when Ameer Abdullah was going in the second round a couple years ago? The name Bishop Sankey ring a bell? Fantasy owners have such short memories. 

 

Oh man, this takes me back. Only play in one league - went 16-0 in 2013, then drafted Montee Ball in the 2nd and Bishop Sankey in 4th in 2014 on my way to a 9th place finish. 

 

5 hours ago, c27 said:

He who laughs last, laughs loudest 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Barkley and Kamara are only about 25-30 points apart, so I wouldn't be too quick to say you've had the last laugh. As we always see, guys go on hot and cold streaks. If Senator Spaceman had hopped in here week 10, everyone would probably have thought he'd won this debate. All it really takes is one monster game from Kamara and one dud from Barkley to even this back out. With that said, I have Barkley so I hope he hangs 60+ these next two weeks. 

 

Overall, thanks for bringing this thread back up - some entertaining reading. 

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7 hours ago, c27 said:

He who laughs last, laughs loudest 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Bringing up stuff from August? 

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21 hours ago, jwk1325 said:

 

Oh man, this takes me back. Only play in one league - went 16-0 in 2013, then drafted Montee Ball in the 2nd and Bishop Sankey in 4th in 2014 on my way to a 9th place finish. 

 

 

Barkley and Kamara are only about 25-30 points apart, so I wouldn't be too quick to say you've had the last laugh. As we always see, guys go on hot and cold streaks. If Senator Spaceman had hopped in here week 10, everyone would probably have thought he'd won this debate. All it really takes is one monster game from Kamara and one dud from Barkley to even this back out. With that said, I have Barkley so I hope he hangs 60+ these next two weeks. 

 

Overall, thanks for bringing this thread back up - some entertaining reading. 

Plenty of people I know, and have played against last week lost because Kamara threw a dud (and the opposite with Barkley). SpaceCadet has literally been putting "reactions" to these posts all season long whenever Kamara would have a big game..smh

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20 hours ago, bhawks489 said:

Bringing up stuff from August? 

^

 

but you're probably another one of  SpaceCadet's boyfriends, so any sort of reasonable explanation as to why I respond to this old thread  would be clouded by your bias anyways.

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53 minutes ago, c27 said:

^

 

but you're probably another one of  SpaceCadet's boyfriends, so any sort of reasonable explanation as to why I respond to this old thread  would be clouded by your bias anyways.

Next 

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On 12/11/2018 at 5:32 AM, c27 said:

He who laughs last, laughs loudest 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Wow, this is sort of pathetic but I'm honestly a bit flattered. I don't particularly remember this thread or @c27 but you've obviously been obsessing over this for months. 

 

I'm not sure if anything I said in this thread was necessarily wrong by the way. You had claimed that Kamara would get injured (wrong) and that his workload would decrease (wrong). I pointed out several times that it would be fine to take Barkley over Kamara, but preferred to go with the proven commodity over a rookie and I stand by that school of thought. 

 

My only real issue in this thread appeared to be your belief that there was no reasonable comparison between these two players. They are obviously both elite. In 0.5 Barkley (through Week 16) is RB3 and Kamara is RB4, with Barkley averaging 0.42 more points per game. You bring up the gap between them in Week 14 scoring but let's look at the rest of the playoffs.

 

Idk how many owners lost directly due to AK's "dud" of almost 14 points in Week 14 but for those owners who won in Week 14 or had byes, Kamara went on to post 44.8 in Playoff Weeks 15+16 while Barkley only mustered 23.8 over the two most important weeks of the season, including an actual dud of 7.6 in Week 15. Yikes. Anyone can cherry pick stat splits but the fact is Kamara had a better playoff season overall.

 

Based on your previous comments, you'll probably call me a clown and attack me personally but I'm trying to keep this fact-based and I'm having a difficult time seeing why I was so wrong in this thread. Anyway, hope you had a good season. Happy Holidays man.  

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On 12/11/2018 at 2:32 AM, c27 said:

He who laughs last, laughs loudest 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

1 point difference in standard, 8 in ppr.  So on the year they basically gave you same results.  Yet Kamara did put up better numbers in playoffs.  Don't see why you would want to go back 3 months and bring this up.

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