rage2021

Nikola Jokic 2018-19 Season Outlook

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I believe after the all-star break he was the 3rd (THIRD!) ranked player in fantasy with averages of 

 

22.1 PPG, 1.9 3PG, 11.2 RPG, 7.1 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1 BPG, .535 FG%, .855 FT %, 3 TO

 

Triple one guy, I think we all forget just how good this Unicorn Center is and can still be..

 

"It is crazy to think that in just three years, his resume is already looking like one which could eventually get him into the hall of fame one day. Here is a list of accomplishments for Jokic so far. All of these were verified via basketball reference.

Jokic set the record for the fastest triple double of all time this past season. What is also overlooked is that he made the 2015-16 All Rookie Team and was actually close to winning Rookie of the Year. He actually finished third in Rookie of the Year voting.

Jokic has already climbed the ladder on the all time triple double list in his short career and is currently in the top 15 for triple doubles by big men. Jokic also has already spent two seasons in the top 10 in terms of value above replacement player and finished eighth in player efficiency rating for the 2016-17 season. That same season, he also finished seventh in offensive rating as well.

Terrific numbers and accolades for someone who is still so young and has a ton of potential for the rest of his prospective career."

https://nugglove.com/2018/08/29/nikola-jokic-accomplished-denver-nuggets/

 

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Jokic is a stat monkey for sure , but he also definitely reminds me of the crazy stats of a  young Kevin Love (30/30 game etc) and I think his carrer will have a similar trajectory.  

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1 hour ago, rage2021 said:

I believe after the all-star break he was the 3rd (THIRD!) ranked player in fantasy with averages of 

 

22.1 PPG, 1.9 3PG, 11.2 RPG, 7.1 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1 BPG, .535 FG%, .855 FT %, 3 TO

 

Triple one guy, I think we all forget just how good this Unicorn Center is and can still be..

 

"It is crazy to think that in just three years, his resume is already looking like one which could eventually get him into the hall of fame one day. Here is a list of accomplishments for Jokic so far. All of these were verified via basketball reference.

Jokic set the record for the fastest triple double of all time this past season. What is also overlooked is that he made the 2015-16 All Rookie Team and was actually close to winning Rookie of the Year. He actually finished third in Rookie of the Year voting.

Jokic has already climbed the ladder on the all time triple double list in his short career and is currently in the top 15 for triple doubles by big men. Jokic also has already spent two seasons in the top 10 in terms of value above replacement player and finished eighth in player efficiency rating for the 2016-17 season. That same season, he also finished seventh in offensive rating as well.

Terrific numbers and accolades for someone who is still so young and has a ton of potential for the rest of his prospective career."

https://nugglove.com/2018/08/29/nikola-jokic-accomplished-denver-nuggets/

 

 

 

Sheesh! He really lit it up after the break eh? I did not know that. And I had a look everyone was mostly healthy during that time (Millsap came back, Harris missed about 5-7 games, but full program from Murray and Barton). This info definitely gives him a bump in my books. He is only 23...

He could be close to top 5 this year on the season...

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2 hours ago, Rainsford said:

Jokic is a stat monkey for sure , but he also definitely reminds me of the crazy stats of a  young Kevin Love (30/30 game etc) and I think his carrer will have a similar trajectory.  

So you think Jokic is going to have his stats go down as his career goes on? No way.

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4 minutes ago, greatestmetfan said:

So you think Jokic is going to have his stats go down as his career goes on? No way.

 

Yes. Denver ain't winning anything, just like the Timberwolves weren't winning anything.

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11 minutes ago, taenggg said:

Lol keep sleeping on Jokic in real life and fantasy 

No one was denying that he is a stat stuffer in fantasy , so lets put the straw man back in the shed .  In reality his game is not going to translate into ships. Kevin Love looked like a world beater too when he was young and in the right place at the right time.

 

At any rate , the assessment is not going to be proven until a few years down the road . Just off season banter at its finest 

Edited by Rainsford
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3 minutes ago, Rainsford said:

No one was denying that he is a stat stuffer in fantasy , so lets put the straw man back in the shed .  In reality his game is not going to translate into ships. Kevin Love looked like a world beater too when he was young and in the right place at the right time.

 

At any rate , the assessment is not going to be proven until a few years down the road . Just off season banter at its finest 

 

I’m glad you explained it. It’s like I was talking Chinese to them.

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Their games are nothing alike except for the fact that both happen to be white dudes. 

Jokic is better then Kevin Love in every facet of basketball so nah try again.

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Some guys put up stats and win, meanwhile some guys put up empty stats. Kevin Love was an empty stat guy, so was Boogie and Jokic might very well be one too. As crazy as those stats are hes not winning games enough to even make playoffs.

 

Obviously this could change but as it stands his numbers havent meant much.

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5 hours ago, FantasyBallFan said:

Some guys put up stats and win, meanwhile some guys put up empty stats. Kevin Love was an empty stat guy, so was Boogie and Jokic might very well be one too. As crazy as those stats are hes not winning games enough to even make playoffs.

 

Obviously this could change but as it stands his numbers havent meant much.

 

but this is fantasy basketball, if players put up empty stats help your team win chips in fantasy that is all it matters regardless what happens in real life.

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3 hours ago, ber said:

 

but this is fantasy basketball, if players put up empty stats help your team win chips in fantasy that is all it matters regardless what happens in real life.

Obviously thats true. I didnt start this real life topic, just commenting on it

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8 hours ago, krupocin said:

 

There’s more to it than this, that’s a very simplified way of looking at this I don’t think you can compare Cousins or Love to Jokic for many reasons, but the biggest difference is the efficiency. I don’t think Jokic is leading anyone to a championship by himself but he is not only one of the best playmakers in the league at 7 foot but is also one of the most efficient scorers in the league as well. 50%FG 40%3PM 85%FT on the season and 53.5%FG 43%3PM 86%FT after ASB last season...look at the other players with high volume scoring %’s like that over the course of a season (Dirk, KD, Curry, Nash, Bird, etc) and you’ll see what kind of rare air he’s already in. 

 

Kevin Love on the other hand as a starter in MIN was a pedestrian 45%/36%/81% (and badically the same in CLE with a slight dip in FG% to 43 and slight FT% rise) and DeMarcus Cousins a horrendous 46%/33%/73% (which is worse than I expected even). His 3PT shooting increased a few points in NO but everything else basically stayed the same. Cousins averaged around 3ast and >3TO but averaged 5.4ast last season with 5TO so at least he’s consistent lol. Love averaged 2.3ast and 2to over the same

period...Jokic 6ast 2.8to last season and the ratio improved with the season, was 5:2.5 the season before which is around PG level of ast:to. 

 

Jokic did this all in 32mpg last season, Love was around 37mpg as a starter in MIN and Cousins 34-36mpg at various stages. 

 

It’s also worth pointing out that the Nuggets without Millsap for most of the year were basically 3.5 games out of 3rd place in the West last year despite not making the playoffs because of how close 3-9 were. The Love Wolves teams and the Cousins Kings teams were basement dwellers

.

The advanced stats support the same too with Jokic again being one of the most efficient guys in the league and sneaky good at some aspects of defense like disrupting passing lanes (and obviously rebounding) while being garbage at to protection but everyone has a weakness. 

 

I dont think Jokic is a future MVP but he’s definitely still underrated and anyone comparing him to MIN Kevin Love or SAC Cousins isn’t really looking beyond the absolute surface and cliches. 

 

One last point...as I mentioned last season Jokic had a 50/40/85 season with 6apg & 10rpg which has only been done one other time in NBA history by Larry Bird in 1985 (I rounded up 0.1% but that doesn’t change anything) If you ignore assists then Towns is the only other addition to the list, and if you get rid of rebounds you basically just add a bunch of Curry/Nash/Price seasons.  That elite company I think tells you more than anything I can...

Despite the company he keeps in terms of the history books I dont see how any of this relates to me saying he may be putting up empty stats. You’re quoting the wrong guy as someone else above is the one that called him a stat monkey.

 

if he continues to have a talented team and fails to qualify for the playoffs, none of that efficiency matters because hes not winning. Although I believe they will make playoffs at some point its not a lock. And if he can’t qualify for playoffs with this team then he needs to be looked at as one of those guys.

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5 hours ago, FantasyBallFan said:

Despite the company he keeps in terms of the history books I dont see how any of this relates to me saying he may be putting up empty stats. You’re quoting the wrong guy as someone else above is the one that called him a stat monkey.

 

if he continues to have a talented team and fails to qualify for the playoffs, none of that efficiency matters because hes not winning. Although I believe they will make playoffs at some point its not a lock. And if he can’t qualify for playoffs with this team then he needs to be looked at as one of those guys.

 

If you really think none of that efficiency matters regardless of playoff status I think you're failing to recognize the team aspect of basketball and you're basically doing the hot take Skip Bayless school of analysis which is "grab onto an old sports cliche and Dont let go no matter what!" Empty stats/basement dwelling team guys are low efficiency guys who put up big stats on a bad team because they benefit from the massive amount of shots and usage available to them without the requirement that they be efficient or held accountable as they would on a good team. You're comparing a season in which Jokic lost his second best player for 75% of the season and pretty much willed a young core of him, Gary Harris, and Jamal Murray (who Im not even convinced is that good) into the playoffs. They were 3 games out of THIRD place with a record of 46-36 which I would say already ends the bad team good stats Discussion. Would you call Towns a bad team good stats guy or no because Jimmy Butler came back and willed MIN to 0.5 games over DEN. Using the playoffs alone as the litmus test for a young player not named Lebron or KD is just lazy and I know it was more the other guy than you saying this but you did kind of agree and my point is good stats bad team guys never have games as special or unique as a Jokic and they also don't bring their team to 3 games out of 3rd place in their early 20's. Cousins Kings never even sniffed the playoffs and Love's Wolves were often at the bottom of the West except for his age 26 season when they had a solid core and went 40-42 (which is what DEN finished last year), 

 

Maybe Im overreacting but I just hate these lazy arguments and discussions...I'm a 76ers fan haha not even a Nuggets fan, but when I see multiple people saying the same BS about a guy who's stats and team performances are about as far from the low efficiency high popcorn stats output of the cliche "good stats bad team guy" as a 22 year old surrounded with mediocre talent can be I feel like I have to make a point ...it's not like there's any basketball on TV to distract me.

 

And on what planet is his team "not winning"?! do you know what KD's record was his 3rd year in the league at the same age with 2nd year Russ, Harden, Ibaka, Jeff Green (pre heart issues), and a few solid veterans....50-32 or 4 games better than the Nuggets this past season. Or what about Harden's age 23 season his first as leader of the Rockets....45-37....the BEST record Giannis ever finished with in the terrible East was 44-38 (42-40 his age 22 season first playoffs appearance). 

 

My point that im taking way too long to get to with all that is let's not punish someone for playing in one of the most stacked conferences in NBA history. No one calls Giannis a good stats bad team guy because he plays in the East or Harden at that point because the Rockets made the playoffs but going 46-36 in last years West without Millsap most of the year impresses me more than Giannnis sneaking in the East. No one has ever called AD a good stats bad team guy despite his history prior to making the playoffs they just said he doesn't have enough help. I mean damn I'm a 76ers fan and I'll even admit there's a good chance the Nuggets could have made the ECF last season! It's already clear as day he's not a bad team good stats guy.

 

ok my flight is about to board but I'm curious to hear what you all have to say about that 

Edited by krupocin
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I don't understand why Jokic and Cousins can't be compared!? Of course they are different players, but in BBM rankings they placed side by side, one was 12th and other 13th fantasy player. Why we compare only shooting % and AST/TO rating? We then compare one player's (Jokic) best and other's (Cousins) worst qualities. I compare all 9 cats and in summary Cousins wins 5:4. And that is not only so-called popcorn stats - if Jokic is 1/1/1 player, then Cousins is 1,5/1,5/1,5 player. And finally: punt TO and Cousins is clearly better (BBM averages 1,10 and 0,78).

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29 minutes ago, apatas said:

I don't understand why Jokic and Cousins can't be compared!? Of course they are different players, but in BBM rankings they placed side by side, one was 12th and other 13th fantasy player. Why we compare only shooting % and AST/TO rating? We then compare one player's (Jokic) best and other's (Cousins) worst qualities. I compare all 9 cats and in summary Cousins wins 5:4. And that is not only so-called popcorn stats - if Jokic is 1/1/1 player, then Cousins is 1,5/1,5/1,5 player. And finally: punt TO and Cousins is clearly better (BBM averages 1,10 and 0,78).

 

Wasnt talking about that was talking about the posts above regarding being a player who will just put up empty stats on a bad team, less about fantasy but since it’s the off season. I totally agree with everything you said above and would never say they can’t be compared in fantasy ofc they absolutely could (at least pre-Cousins injury I doubt he will sniff top 12 ever again).

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2 hours ago, krupocin said:

 

If you really think none of that efficiency matters regardless of playoff status I think you're failing to recognize the team aspect of basketball and you're basically doing the hot take Skip Bayless school of analysis which is "grab onto an old sports cliche and Dont let go no matter what!" Empty stats/basement dwelling team guys are low efficiency guys who put up big stats on a bad team because they benefit from the massive amount of shots and usage available to them without the requirement that they be efficient or held accountable as they would on a good team. You're comparing a season in which Jokic lost his second best player for 75% of the season and pretty much willed a young core of him, Gary Harris, and Jamal Murray (who Im not even convinced is that good) into the playoffs. They were 3 games out of THIRD place with a record of 46-36 which I would say already ends the bad team good stats Discussion. Would you call Towns a bad team good stats guy or no because Jimmy Butler came back and willed MIN to 0.5 games over DEN. Using the playoffs alone as the litmus test for a young player not named Lebron or KD is just lazy and I know it was more the other guy than you saying this but you did kind of agree and my point is good stats bad team guys never have games as special or unique as a Jokic and they also don't bring their team to 3 games out of 3rd place in their early 20's. Cousins Kings never even sniffed the playoffs and Love's Wolves were often at the bottom of the West except for his age 26 season when they had a solid core and went 40-42 (which is what DEN finished last year), 

 

Maybe Im overreacting but I just hate these lazy arguments and discussions...I'm a 76ers fan haha not even a Nuggets fan, but when I see multiple people saying the same BS about a guy who's stats and team performances are about as far from the low efficiency high popcorn stats output of the cliche "good stats bad team guy" as a 22 year old surrounded with mediocre talent can be I feel like I have to make a point ...it's not like there's any basketball on TV to distract me.

 

And on what planet is his team "not winning"?! do you know what KD's record was his 3rd year in the league at the same age with 2nd year Russ, Harden, Ibaka, Jeff Green (pre heart issues), and a few solid veterans....50-32 or 4 games better than the Nuggets this past season. Or what about Harden's age 23 season his first as leader of the Rockets....45-37....the BEST record Giannis ever finished with in the terrible East was 44-38 (42-40 his age 22 season first playoffs appearance). 

 

My point that im taking way too long to get to with all that is let's not punish someone for playing in one of the most stacked conferences in NBA history. No one calls Giannis a good stats bad team guy because he plays in the East or Harden at that point because the Rockets made the playoffs but going 46-36 in last years West without Millsap most of the year impresses me more than Giannnis sneaking in the East. No one has ever called AD a good stats bad team guy despite his history prior to making the playoffs they just said he doesn't have enough help. I mean damn I'm a 76ers fan and I'll even admit there's a good chance the Nuggets could have made the ECF last season! It's already clear as day he's not a bad team good stats guy.

 

ok my flight is about to board but I'm curious to hear what you all have to say about that 

 

Me saying he might be right does not mean im agreeing with him. For me its too early to pass judgement on Jokic as hes only been a starter for 2 years. With that said, the fact is he hasnt done anything yet (at the least make playoffs) with a team that has a good amount of talent.

 

Maybe we have different definitions of empty stats. Efficiency does matter but if you dont win relative to the talent put around you then I see it as empty stats. There are guys who are alot less efficient that jokic but have done better with less talent. Again, hes still young and has time, br the fact he still has time doesnt mask the fact he has not done anything. Considering he hasnt shown anything yet, he may be an empty stats guy.

 

Theres no reward for being 0.5 games out of the playoffs or 3 games out of 3rd. You’re either in or you’re not and I dont see anyone complaining about the talent around jokic so if he cant get it done eventually then i’ll rightfully classify him in the same group as boogie.

 

Some players are great and win, some players are just great and can’t find a way to win. Jokic may very well be one of those guys, along with any elite player you mentioned who hasnt proved anything.

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Im sorry but everyone talking shiit about Jokic being an empty stats guy that cant win anything on his own, please list me the teams with ONE stud that are winning things. Denver have 4 good players around Jokic, but no superstars like the rest of last years playoff teams bar the Spurs. So to judge Jokic on what is around him right now is unfair. Put one or two top 20 guys around him and see what Denver do.

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49 minutes ago, ROTY said:

Im sorry but everyone talking shiit about Jokic being an empty stats guy that cant win anything on his own, please list me the teams with ONE stud that are winning things. Denver have 4 good players around Jokic, but no superstars like the rest of last years playoff teams bar the Spurs. So to judge Jokic on what is around him right now is unfair. Put one or two top 20 guys around him and see what Denver do.

Well its kind of an unfair question seeing as  you already answered your own question by naming the Spurs.

 

That being said , do the Jazz have so much more talent around Gobert ? Who are the other superstars or top 20 guys, as you say ?

 

Do the Blazers have so much more talent around Lillard? Is Aminu ,McColllum or Nurkic the top 20 option/ superstar that Jokic is missing ?

 

 

 

 

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I would not pick Jokic ahead of Curry and Durant, he has too much fluctuations in his game where he goes missing for a month with average of 10 PPG & 30% shooting.

But, i'd pick him at #9 if he is still there.

AD, Harden, Giannis, Lebron, Towns, Curry, Durant, RW, Jokic.

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3 hours ago, dekciw_1 said:

I would not pick Jokic ahead of Curry and Durant, he has too much fluctuations in his game where he goes missing for a month with average of 10 PPG & 30% shooting.

But, i'd pick him at #9 if he is still there.

AD, Harden, Giannis, Lebron, Towns, Curry, Durant, RW, Jokic.

 

Depends entirely on your league type (roto/H2H) and number cats (8/9). You must be playing 8-cat H2H I assume considering the rankings of Harden and especially RWB.

 

In 9-cat roto the more I look at the Joker's finish last year the more I see the top 5 upside and top 10 floor. That makes him a great pick anywhere from about 6-12.

In 9-cat roto no-way in hell RWB is ahead of Jokic (neither LBJ on the ball hungry lakers) and Curry and Durant are probably ahead of Giannis, and potentially Harden and arguably even Towns. Curry was #2 rank last year per game last year Durant 3. While I expect them to get rested I think both will play more than they did last year as the warriors have less B2B and I assume they have less injuries too.


As has been pointed out:

On 9/7/2018 at 2:52 PM, rage2021 said:

I believe after the all-star break he was the 3rd (THIRD!) ranked player in fantasy with averages of 

22.1 PPG, 1.9 3PG, 11.2 RPG, 7.1 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1 BPG, .535 FG%, .855 FT %, 3 TO

And that with pretty much a full team after the all-star break for the Nuggets. There is only one way to describe those numbers:

Image result for beast

Edited by Jake the snake
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