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Gandalfthecat

Are mods really necesssary?

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13 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

 

I see very few "please delete" comments and/or reports as compared to the volume of other stuff we deal with.  Maybe 2% of our job is cleaning these up.  Meanwhile, letting people delete their posts comes with its own problems.  I do not see this as a useful change, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if you have some compelling argument for it

 

It just seems counterintuitive to run such a tight ship with regard to content in player outlook threads, but not give the users the full control over the message they are trying to convey. An alternative would be a more extended editing time, as one can often catch errors or needed corrections but the post is already locked down at that point. I guess one downfall could be intentional trolling then deleting of posts, but mods would presumably be able to detect and prevent that behavior from the beginning anyway (as in being able to see deleted posts). Just seems like a lot of the emotional derails could be prevented if someone were to recognize and correct their own behavior rather than tattle on themselves or wait for the situation to spill over into something bigger that requires actual moderation. Sports forums being the emotional outlets that they are can be prone to frequent off the cuff remarks that are typically confined to game day threads, but not always.

 

But whatever, that's just me. It's not a big deal either way, and I actually think the moderation staff does a good job in the player threads once everyone understands and plays by the same rules. I just know that I personally would catch and delete/edit so many cool stories about my awesome team that probably shouldn't even be there.

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I appreciate this response in full.  I realize moderating is a thankless task - and I appreciate the heck out of our mods.  I just don’t want to see it result in a chilling effect on speech and driving away potentially valuable contributions.  I, for one, will do my part to help out as needed by observing the CoC and trying to state my views in ways that adhere to the rules.

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Mods are the custodians of the Internet. You do not appreciate it until the place looks like crap.

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I think the MODS do a great job on this forum and are extremely neccessary.  I doubt I'd come here if it weren't for the Mods as I will explain:

 

Note - I have had several of my posts deleted in the past.  Pretty much all of them were warranted.

 

The point of the player threads portion of the forum is to quickly retreive data about a player in one spot, organized. 

Without the Mods

  • the player threads would be worthless arguing like most of reddit or any other forum on the internet.
  • In addition, the player threads would have a lot of useless info NOT about the player

 

Thank you Mods for making this website the most useful fantasy website I've found.

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1 hour ago, lolcopter said:

 

It just seems counterintuitive to run such a tight ship with regard to content in player outlook threads, but not give the users the full control over the message they are trying to convey. An alternative would be a more extended editing time, as one can often catch errors or needed corrections but the post is already locked down at that point. I guess one downfall could be intentional trolling then deleting of posts, but mods would presumably be able to detect and prevent that behavior from the beginning anyway (as in being able to see deleted posts). Just seems like a lot of the emotional derails could be prevented if someone were to recognize and correct their own behavior rather than tattle on themselves or wait for the situation to spill over into something bigger that requires actual moderation. Sports forums being the emotional outlets that they are can be prone to frequent off the cuff remarks that are typically confined to game day threads, but not always.

 

But whatever, that's just me. It's not a big deal either way, and I actually think the moderation staff does a good job in the player threads once everyone understands and plays by the same rules. I just know that I personally would catch and delete/edit so many cool stories about my awesome team that probably shouldn't even be there.

 

I really don't want to have to read countless posts with notes for the poster to edit their post.  That is also a lot of extra administrative work for the Mods

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On 10/7/2018 at 7:02 PM, Gandalfthecat said:

I must apologize on my ignorance on the subject of the internet mods here in general. 

Is this a paid gig? If so, they probably have rules they have to uphold in order to get paid. 

But if it's voluntary, I mean. Chill. 

 

This is where I'm at. 

 

I use to frequent this place. This is the first time I've been back in almost 2 weeks. 

 

I post something I believe is relevant. Get 5 likes. Post deleted then I'm threatened in a message. 

 

OK. Whatever. I feel like I'm not the only one thinking what I say is relevant as can be seen by numerous feedback within a short period of time before deleted. 

 

I like talking fantasy. I like going in depth and going past 1 word answers. Comparisons provide valid measuring sticks. Projections without basis I find irrelevant, but I guess when you go too in depth you get deleted. 

 

Whatever. I liked this place more on 2017, I'll say that. 

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Mods here are infuriating and harm the site. Off the cuff discussions regarding trades, start/sit, etc only shed more light on the relative value of a given player and are certainly worthy of being in a players thread. They also help establish value over time.

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This place should be like a dive bar. You hang, you talk some trash, sometimes things get out if hand and a fight needs to be broken up. that's when a mod is needed.

 

The problem is you are running it like a middle school dance. With inside voices, and no music. And the party sucks.

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@tonycpsu The transparency is appreciated. Thank you for going into great lengths to respond to our concerns and give some insight into why things are moderated the way they currently are. Can't speak for others but it gave me a better understanding.

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1 hour ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

 

This is where I'm at. 

 

I use to frequent this place. This is the first time I've been back in almost 2 weeks. 

 

I post something I believe is relevant. Get 5 likes. Post deleted then I'm threatened in a message. 

 

OK. Whatever. I feel like I'm not the only one thinking what I say is relevant as can be seen by numerous feedback within a short period of time before deleted. 

 

I like talking fantasy. I like going in depth and going past 1 word answers. Comparisons provide valid measuring sticks. Projections without basis I find irrelevant, but I guess when you go too in depth you get deleted. 

 

Whatever. I liked this place more on 2017, I'll say that. 

One thing I do think should be allowed is comparisons to other players.

 

stack ranking is one of the most important things in fantasy.

 

for example, if I say I kept player X over player Y in PPR then that is very relevant information.  We should have debates about the value of one player over another as long as it doesn’t get too off the topic

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I just think the mods group too many posts into CSB or AC talk. Ranking a list of RB for the upcoming week and asking where player X fits in there should not be moved to AC. If you specify a scoring setting in there (which is relevant information), it'll be deleted within the hour. That kind of post will help more posters than just the one asking it. 

 

Another example. Sometimes when a poster asks if they should drop a player for one on the wire, that discussion can help other posters gauge those players as well. The more discussion, the better, as long as it is helping the posters with their fantasy questions. If it's super specified (1 for 1 question, in depth keepers, things like that), sure, move that to AC, but some general AC questions can help those owners viewing their players' threads. 

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Without mods this place would be unreadable. Would resemble the comments section under a Brad Evans article. If the mods get a bit over-zealous in preventing that so be it. 

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4 hours ago, afl5013 said:

I just think the mods group too many posts into CSB or AC talk. Ranking a list of RB for the upcoming week and asking where player X fits in there should not be moved to AC. If you specify a scoring setting in there (which is relevant information), it'll be deleted within the hour. That kind of post will help more posters than just the one asking it. 

 

Another example. Sometimes when a poster asks if they should drop a player for one on the wire, that discussion can help other posters gauge those players as well. The more discussion, the better, as long as it is helping the posters with their fantasy questions. If it's super specified (1 for 1 question, in depth keepers, things like that), sure, move that to AC, but some general AC questions can help those owners viewing their players' threads. 

 

This is my biggest thing ^

 

i enjoy seeing a list of players or seeing guys talk about one guy over others, obv as long as its not super tailored to the posters team, i enjoy seeing what kind of guys other managers are playing over a guy im considering starting, very helpful to see the general confidence in said player that given week compared to possible replacements

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Really the Mods on this site go overboard.  The only posts that should get deleted are when guys get into personal attacks.  Everything else should be allowed.  Plus I find it amazing they close the Gordon thread often.  A guy that could be fantasy relevant.  But keep the Henry thread open when 50 pages is Cleats attacking everybody that doesn't think Henry is a god.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Braves16 said:

Without mods this place would be unreadable. Would resemble the comments section under a Brad Evans article. If the mods get a bit over-zealous in preventing that so be it. 

 

Censor personal attacks, spam, etc. No need to be as heavy handed as they are here. I have had dozens of posts deleted. 

Edited by tonycpsu
The CoC still applies in this thread. Criticism the actions of the staff is fine. Calling us "Nazis" is not.

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I want to point out that I'm seeing a lot of mods with an S and I want to speak for myself when I say there's several good ones here. I especially always liked the guy with the rat / mouse avatar. 

 

I don't think it's ALL. 

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20 hours ago, lolcopter said:

 

It just seems counterintuitive to run such a tight ship with regard to content in player outlook threads, but not give the users the full control over the message they are trying to convey. An alternative would be a more extended editing time, as one can often catch errors or needed corrections but the post is already locked down at that point. I guess one downfall could be intentional trolling then deleting of posts, but mods would presumably be able to detect and prevent that behavior from the beginning anyway (as in being able to see deleted posts).


A major problem with a longer edit window (or allowing deletions) is that threads move so fast that by the time you go to remove / edit the post you regret, three people have quoted it in response -- probably more if the post is the kind of emotional / inflammatory thing I think you're talking about here.  So to truly remove all traces of the regrettable post, a mod's intervention is required anyway.  Best to just have the post reported so we can do it in one pass, and so that there's no continuity error caused by the missing post when several "ghost" copies of it exist.

 

19 hours ago, BMcP said:

I appreciate this response in full.  I realize moderating is a thankless task - and I appreciate the heck out of our mods.  I just don’t want to see it result in a chilling effect on speech and driving away potentially valuable contributions.  I, for one, will do my part to help out as needed by observing the CoC and trying to state my views in ways that adhere to the rules.

 

I think there's a legitimate concern here, but the use of the phrase "chilling effect on speech", which is a legal term of art that arises out of First Amendment case law in the United States, makes things sound a lot more sinister than they actually are.  The First Amendment limits what the government can do -- it does nothing for you when you're talking on a privately-hosted website and the people removing your posts aren't part of the government.  Nobody here, not even the staff, has any right to speak -- it's all 100% a privilege granted by the people who own and operate the servers.

 

With that caveat out of the way -- yes, we recognize some people may be turned off that we moderate at all, or that we moderate in ways they don't like.  I addressed this possibility in my original response:

 

Quote

I don't know for certain how you meant it, but I think a vast majority of people recognize the need for at least some moderation of content.  How much is too much is something we can debate here, but I do not believe there is any merit to eliminating moderation entirely and going full free-for-all, and I think most of the community is with me on that narrow yes/no question, with the obvious caveat that people who truly prefer a more no-holds-barred approach may have already left the community some time ago.  We can debate whether we'd be better off having them back and potentially losing some of the folks who are here and prefer more moderated spaces, but I think we have to work from the assumption that some amount of maintenance is necessary for the discussion to be useful to most people.


Clearly, we recognize that there will be people who take their ball and go elsewhere if they don't like how we do things.  Our job is to weigh that against the potential losses of current members (or lack of growth in new members) that could occur as people who prefer stricter moderation leave the site or don't ever join because they don't like what they see here.

 

We are, to the best of our ability, balancing those competing concerns, but I've certainly noticed that the biggest problem users who don't follow the CoC and posting guidelines generally aren't contributing nearly as much useful fantasy-relevant content as those who do.

 

This goes back to the  point I made in my original response about how not all complaints have merit, and they therefore need to be evaluated on their own, in their original context.  Simply citing some people who might leave / have left because we didn't let them say whatever they want doesn't settle the question of whether what we did was good or bad for the community.  We don't want to drive anyone out who's making the community better, but someone who contributes some meaningful content but is also a jerk who drives other members away can be a net negative for the forums when you count the totality of the good and bad they bring to the site.

 

Let me also reiterate that there are plenty of threads -- a majority of the threads on the site, actually -- where people can say almost anything they want as long as they're not being offensive/abusive.

 

What I think people are actually lamenting when they say they're being censored is not that they don't have a platform -- they have many of them available to them here -- but that they're not allowed to use the platforms they think they should be allowed to use for whatever purpose they choose.  The kinds of content most people are zeroing in on here -- team/roster-specific questions, CSBs, etc. -- we allow these things on a vast majority of threads on this site.  There just happen to be some threads that have a higher signal-to-noise ratio -- and therefore a wider audience -- that people want to use for their own purposes, without regard for what that does to the quality of the discussion in those threads.

 

14 hours ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

This is where I'm at. 

 

I use to frequent this place. This is the first time I've been back in almost 2 weeks.

 

Then you should change your password immediately, because someone else has been visiting the site several times in that period of time using your account.

 

14 hours ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

I post something I believe is relevant. Get 5 likes. Post deleted then I'm threatened in a message.

 

When did this happen?  And who "threatened" you?  Not that "likes" matter for us when determining if a post violates site guidelines, but I see no deleted post of yours that fits the description you've provided.
 

14 hours ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

I like talking fantasy. I like going in depth and going past 1 word answers. Comparisons provide valid measuring sticks. Projections without basis I find irrelevant, but I guess when you go too in depth you get deleted.


Going in depth is great -- we want in-depth information in the outlook threads, but it needs to be generally applicable to most owners of the player in question.  Some amount of player comparison is and has always been fine as well, as long as it's not too AC-motivated.

 

These are judgement calls that depend highly on context, so I'm afraid I can't do much to address your underlying complaint without more details about what you think isn't allowed.

 

I will try to respond to more of these later, or get someone else from the staff to weigh in.

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Posted (edited)

For years, rotoworld has tried to create something truly unique in today’s fantasy landscape...a board dedicated to covering player news, injury updates, etc...without having to wade through question after question and cool story after cool story. I applaud their effort, though it’s nearly impossible considering fantasy owners/their teams have surpassed grandparents/their grandkids as the most unaware, obnoxious people on the planet. 

 

There are hundreds—if not thousands—of fantasy sites out there that offer a more relaxed experience in terms of AC questions and CSBs. Why not go there?  Why the need to force your own utopian views of what a fantasy site should be onto a site that has existed, with their own set of rules, for years?  

 

Rotoworld offers an entire board for questions...entire thread for discussing your team...so its not like these things are forbidden. 

Reserve the player outlook thread for those of us who are cool with middle school dances and care nothing about frat parties. 

Edited by Braves16

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Posted (edited)

i've been posting less and less. barely any at all. i've always been rubbed the wrong way with the excessive moderation here. nowadays it's hard to simply have a flowing conversation sometimes. or even say something you are excited/upset about. could be a trade, could be off field issue relating to a player, and it could be a number of other things. if it's not in the exact place where a mod thinks it should be it's gone or moved to no where to be seen. something effecting a player that might lead to a issue on the field is not to be discussed. you can't express thoughts as they come and often in response to other things going on. gameday threads are less fun. if the goal is to stymie natural expression of thoughts in higher traffic threads it is working. now i see huge warning banners. i haven't read them. i just don't care anymore. i will use this site minimally and seek shelter in alternative areas of discussion

Edited by Packdog
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2 hours ago, youngrice said:

Really the Mods on this site go overboard.  The only posts that should get deleted are when guys get into personal attacks.  Everything else should be allowed.  Plus I find it amazing they close the Gordon thread often.  A guy that could be fantasy relevant.  But keep the Henry thread open when 50 pages is Cleats attacking everybody that doesn't think Henry is a god.

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/86nJuFHH25Uu4/giphy.gif

 

 

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2 hours ago, Braves16 said:

For years, rotoworld has tried to create something truly unique in today’s fantasy landscape...a board dedicated to covering player news, injury updates, etc...without having to wade through question after question and cool story after cool story. I applaud their effort, though it’s nearly impossible considering fantasy owners/their teams have surpassed grandparents/their grandkids as the most unaware, obnoxious people on the planet. 

 

There are hundreds—if not thousands—of fantasy sites out there that offer a more relaxed experience in terms of AC questions and CSBs. Why not go there?  Why the need to force your own utopian views of what a fantasy site should be onto a site that has existed, with their own set of rules, for years?  

 

Rotoworld offers an entire board for questions...entire thread for discussing your team...so its not like these things are forbidden. 

Reserve the player outlook thread for those of us who are cool with middle school dances and care nothing about frat parties. 

That board is useless. You know what is useful? A player thread full of stories about who you traded him for, what you've been offered, etc. ID rather hear from a hunch of Cooper owners about when to start him than get cookie cutter WHIR responses.

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Hey all, I am one of the new moderators. It seems like there is a good bit of frustration with some things and that isn't good. Fantasy sports is supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun that kind of sucks. I am not the kind of person that is interested in assigning blame or determining who is "right" and who is "wrong". The only thing we can do is listen to each other, see if there are ways to change to make this place better, explain some things and our points of view, and be respectful. This forum isn't going to please everyone and that is fine. There are forums that have more and less guidelines and rules. If this isn't working for you then I sincerely hope you find a forum that you are stoked about. But if you care about something like this forum, we all can make some minor tweaks to the way we go about things to better the community. 

 

I am going to kind of go through a couple of posts and provide my insight. It is pretty limited as a moderator since I am new, but maybe that is a good thing. 

 

14 hours ago, oban14 said:

Mods here are infuriating and harm the site. Off the cuff discussions regarding trades, start/sit, etc only shed more light on the relative value of a given player and are certainly worthy of being in a players thread. They also help establish value over time.

 

oban14, I don't believe we have interacted on a thread here, but I kind of get what you are saying aside from the part I put in bold. The important thing that Tony has mentioned in his previous responses is that this forum has grown very large and the moderating resources are limited. Moderators can not be perfect. It is impossible. We don't have the time or energy to be perfect because we volunteer our time to trying to make this place better. When something grows very fast you can spend 5% of your resources addressing 95% of the problems and 95% of your resources addressing 5% of the problems. CSB and AC/BC stuff needs to get cleaned up because it isn't fair to expect people to sift through pages of that stuff on a player thread. Unfortunately, that is the reality. Now, if everyone respected the CoC and the posting guidelines than moderators wouldn't have to "clean up" so much. But we can't get to that point until more moderator resources are added and CoC is more closely followed. 

 

Now for the bold...that is your interpretation and you get to have that personal opinion. I can't go off of broad strokes and lumping a bunch of things (the stuff I italicized) into the reasoning why you think that way. Specific examples with context are the only way. 

 

14 hours ago, oban14 said:

This place should be like a dive bar. You hang, you talk some trash, sometimes things get out if hand and a fight needs to be broken up. that's when a mod is needed.

 

The problem is you are running it like a middle school dance. With inside voices, and no music. And the party sucks.

Honestly, it isn't fair to subject people to fighting and things getting out of hand. We all signed up agreeing to the CoC. It really is that simple. If I went to a bar and there was always a fight breaking out during football on Thursday, Sunday, and Monday than I wouldn't go to the bar. I don't go to a bar to spend my time and expect to deal with fights. It isn't civil. 

 

At the end of the day you have expressed your opinion to what you think a fantasy forum should be. And I am sure you aren't alone in your thoughts. That is your opinion. Hopefully you find an outlet where you can have your type of fun with fantasy sports. Unfortunately, the CoC probably doesn't align with your opinions as well as other platforms might. 

1 hour ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

I want to point out that I'm seeing a lot of mods with an S and I want to speak for myself when I say there's several good ones here. I especially always liked the guy with the rat / mouse avatar. 

 

I don't think it's ALL. 

Hey @Dreams And Dwightmares, thanks for posting in this thread. Personally, I am so new to being a moderator that I am still trying to find my footing and style of moderating. I am always down for constructive feedback and criticism. In general, if anyone takes the time to thoughtfully express themselves and respectfully critique someone that is something that will make people better in the long run. Not sure about all moderators, but I am always down for feedback. I may not be able to change, but I will hear you out.

49 minutes ago, Packdog said:

i've been posting less and less. barely any at all. i've always been rubbed the wrong way with the excessive moderation here. nowadays it's hard to simply have a flowing conversation sometimes. or even say something you are excited/upset about. could be a trade, could be off field issue relating to a player, and it could be a number of other things. if it's not in the exact place where a mod thinks it should be it's gone or moved to no where to be seen. something effecting a player that might lead to a issue on the field is not to be discussed. you can't express thoughts as they come and often in response to other things going on. gameday threads are less fun. if the goal is to stymie natural expression of thoughts in higher traffic threads it is working. now i see huge warning banners. i haven't read them. i just don't care anymore. i will use this site minimally and seek shelter in alternative areas of discussion

This is an example of something that I think everyone needs to be more sensitive to when a forum is as large as this one it. If you are upset or emotional about something than it might be best suited for the Vent Threads. Just being honest, not many people take pleasure in reading about someone's personal fantasy hardships when they are trying to gather information about a player. The vent thread is where the stuff you need to scream on the internet to get it off your chest stuff belongs. The other stuff has to be taken in context. Personally, in NBA for example, if you post about a player and then include a trade that just happened and list the players and the league format I find that valuable, but you have to post it in a way where it is valuable for everyone to draw insights off of and apply it to their specific league settings. 

 

I can go into more detail if needed with an example from NBA last season. But, not all sports forums are created equal. NFL, NBA, and MLB are each unique. 

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, oban14 said:

That board is useless. You know what is useful? A player thread full of stories about who you traded him for, what you've been offered, etc. ID rather hear from a hunch of Cooper owners about when to start him than get cookie cutter WHIR responses.

 

No, that isnt useful because every league is different. I’m in a 16 team league. Whether Cooper should be dropped, benched or started in some random dude’s league is completely irrelevant to me and does nothing but clutter up the thread and make it more difficult to find useful information that would apply to ALL leagues. 

 

What’s the latest update on Cooper’s hammy injury?  How has this week’s opponent performed against the pass? What corners will he line up against? How has he performed against them in the past? Everything else is just white noise and deserves to be compartmentalized. 

 

We’re all looking for different info so its impossible for rotoworld to season to everone’s taste, but they’re doing a good job of trying. Yelling at the chefs is misdirected and a waste of time.  

 

That said...you starting Cooper this week?!?!

😛

Edited by Braves16
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2 hours ago, Braves16 said:

 

No, that isnt useful because every league is different. I’m in a 16 team league. Whether Cooper should be dropped, benched or started in some random dude’s league is completely irrelevant to me and does nothing but clutter up the thread and make it more difficult to find useful information that would apply to ALL leagues. 

 

What’s the latest update on Cooper’s hammy injury?  How has this week’s opponent performed against the pass? What corners will he line up against? How has he performed against them in the past? Everything else is just white noise and deserves to be compartmentalized. 

 

We’re all looking for different info so its impossible for rotoworld to season to everone’s taste, but they’re doing a good job of trying. Yelling at the chefs is misdirected and a waste of time.  

 

That said...you starting Cooper this week?!?!

😛

Thus is why CSBs should be there. Not "who should I trade him for" but something like "if it were ppr I would keep him, but in my twelve team league im trying to trade him and cmc for AB, but ABs owner is playing hardball". I have no problem with WHIR type questions being moved, but context is huge. I wrote four or five posts on one page, went back to review the next day, and only two remained. What was deleted? And why?

 

Much like an offensive lineman, if you're a mod and people notice you, you're doing a bad job.

 

I hope to not start Cooper again but will have to at some point. Starting Gordon over him this week.

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