WTP333

2019 League Settings Discussion

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What is your preferred league format? Why?

 

I have always played in h2h, but was hoping to get some insight from others on what they prefer, if not h2h.

 

What type of Roto is best in your opinion? I understand there are various formats within Roto.

 

Thanks!

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Some CSB but prior to last year I had always been a H2H weekly guy except for I think one roto league back in 2014 where I stunk. Last year I wanted to really give roto another shot because over the years I gotten  a little tired of H2H weekly because of the volatility. So I joined 3 roto leagues (did OK and won 2/3). I really enjoyed it a lot more than H2H to be honest. I think what makes baseball such a great fantasy game is the 162 game season and that generally speaking the volatility and randomness kind of levels out over a full year. Roto best captures that I think. Whereas in H2H weekly you're choosing to subject yourself to a lot of randomness that kind of turns it into a crap shoot especially late in the year where competitive teams may be opting to skip their aces or sit some of their regulars for rest purposes. In terms of roto format I really liked 5x5 with OBP instead of Average. OBP tends to be a little bit more steady year to year I think. 

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38 minutes ago, WTP333 said:

What type of Roto is best in your opinion? I understand there are various formats within Roto.

 

I think this discussion (which has occurred many times over the years) will go better if people are more precise about the fact that what we're talking about isn't really H2H vs. roto, but H2H vs. non-H2H.  Plenty of H2H leagues use rotisserie (category) scoring these days.

 

The two questions are:

 

(1) do you prefer

    (a) weekly matchups with a winner declared each week, or

    (b) a season-long format where the winner is the person with the best score at the end

 

and

 

(2) do you prefer

    (a) rotisserie scoring of teams across a number of categories, or

    (b) some kind of points system

 

Once you've decided on these core questions, then other factors come into play -- which categories, do you award a single win to the team with the most category points or a win for each category won, etc. -- but these are the primary differences between formats.

 

Anyway, though people do often disagree on what format they prefer, I think there's broad (though not universal) agreement on the following:

 

H2H (with weekly matchups and a playoff bracket)

All else being equal, leads to more teams being engaged with the league for a longer time because it's easier for a middling team to make the playoffs and have a chance to win than it is to come from the middle of the pack in a season-long league.

 

Season-Long (typically with roto scoring)

All else being equal, is going to lead to the best team for that year winning the championship due to the elimination of playoff luck as a factor.  Doesn't eliminate luck, just makes it harder for a hot couple of weeks to make a champion out of a so-so team.


Points Scoring

The flexibility of point systems allows for a better mapping of fantasy production to real life output on the field.  The individual scoring settings vary, of course, but being able to say a walk is worth a certain amount of points means you have full control over how player stats are reflected in the standings.

 

Rotisserie Scoring

Whether it's week-long roto category matchups or season-long roto, the rotisserie scoring adds a "game within the game" element that points-based scoring generally lacks.  Having to account for balance across categories instead of just getting the most points creates opportunities for strategic decisions about trades, acquisitions, and daily/weekly lineup selections that go beyond just getting the most productive players.

 

There are other advantages and disadvantages, and different categories that can be used in roto for those who don't like how walks/doubles don't matter in "standard 5x5" or that SBs are more valuable than they are in real life.  But let's try to talk about the strengths and weaknesses in a way that accounts for the wide variety of leagues that people play in these days.

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I have played daily roto 7x7 categories for 20 years.  I don't understand weekly leagues.  To me...the daily grind of playing matchups and really "managing" your squad is really the fun of the game.  Our league tends to be real close most years and every K matters in the scope of the standings so it makes for a great 6 month battle.

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21 hours ago, WTP333 said:

What is your preferred league format? Why?

 

I have always played in h2h, but was hoping to get some insight from others on what they prefer, if not h2h.

 

What type of Roto is best in your opinion? I understand there are various formats within Roto.

 

Thanks!

Overall format I like Auction-keeper.  

* I like strategy and team formation through an auction. 

* I like keeper aspect with some contracts/etc so its not "keep forever" and the keeper number is enough to play a difference but perhaps not enough to make people feel like the season is over before it begins. 

* I prefer some component of minor leaguers - some sort of draft picks, etc. 

 

I think this does a good job in engaging owners in that you are either contending or building your franchise.  

 

As far as the playing of the game - "I like high fiber, good scotch...."

* Ideally, I think there would be some blend of season-long roto with maybe a H2H side component.  I often think sometimes that the football crowd, and football is a natural H2H format because there is 1 game a week brought that into the baseball landscape, and to me sometimes it does not fit.  I see so many conversations about sitting guys and innings limits minimum or maximum, 2-start weeks, etc.  I like the idea of H2H, but my main league has no appetite or desire to go that route, so dont spend that much time thinking about how it could work best.  But the main "Championship" would still be a season long roto in an ideal set up for me, but I could see a H2H component.  Almost the revers of football, where some leagues have smaller side money for total point payouts, but the h2h champion is considered the league champ, higher payouts, etc.  It would maybe reverse.  Roto champ, higher payout, but side pot H2H.  

 

* I like Roto 23 active spots - 2 catcher, 1b, 2b, 3b, ss, CI, MI 5OF and UT/DH.  I like 20 game eligibility.   9 pitchers - I like limited to no bench - guys go on DL, you replace them, when your guy comes back you either keep the replacement or the original.  

 

* I like to emphasize the auction/draft - so somewhat limited waiver system, maybe every other week?

 

* Categories - Im fine with traditional 5x5 - not a fan of SOLDS - I think it devalues closers, unless it is an Only league or really big mixed league like over the 15-team threshold.   Avg vs OBP vs OPS - can go any which way on that.  Although I think some of the sabermetric numbers help you understand and predict some of the traditional numbers, they are probably not a way I would go with a category.  

 

* Player Pool - prefer Mixed leagues, though if my league was small like 10-teamer, I would do an "only" but I hate the traded players in "only" situation, so I would have a rule to protect owners for that current season.  Maybe make traded in players off limits as well to remove waiver luck. 

 

 

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Also assuming we're not just talking about scoring formats I really like auction too. Some people don't like it because it does take a while compared to snake. But auction I think is a lot more nuanced and creates more variety from draft to draft. In snake there are just certain guys that you'll never be able to get based on where your spot in the draft is. At least in auction you can always have a chance at getting anyone and at the very least you can influence their draft prices too if you know someone really likes a player which is always fun :D and on the flip side borderline infuriating :angry:

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19 hours ago, Gotham_Soldier said:

I don't understand weekly leagues.  To me...the daily grind of playing matchups and really "managing" your squad is really the fun of the game.  

 

I think you answered your own question. Not everyone finds the daily grind fun. Looking to see who's in the lineup at 7 EST every day (make sure you check earlier when there are day games) for 6 straight months is taxing for people.

 

If you've been in a league for 20 years and your whole league is grinding, congrats on being in a really good league. Most of my daily leagues involve people not trying as hard a few months in and even less so when they are out of it.

 

Daily is a much more hardcore version of fantasy baseball, and I enjoy it, but I also find it cheapened when everyone isnt grinding. If people have those Xs or Red Dots in their lineups often, its just not as competitive. 

Edited by brockpapersizer
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1 hour ago, DidiFan said:

Also assuming we're not just talking about scoring formats I really like auction too. Some people don't like it because it does take a while compared to snake. But auction I think is a lot more nuanced and creates more variety from draft to draft. In snake there are just certain guys that you'll never be able to get based on where your spot in the draft is. At least in auction you can always have a chance at getting anyone and at the very least you can influence their draft prices too if you know someone really likes a player which is always fun :D and on the flip side borderline infuriating :angry:

Seems like there are more and more online auction options as well, which is good.  Seems for a long time, only way you were really doing an auction was a live one, which for some was limited.  

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1 hour ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

I think you answered your own question. Not everyone finds the daily grind fun. Looking to see who's in the lineup at 7 EST every day (make sure you check earlier when there are day games) for 6 straight months is taxing for people.

 

If you've been in a league for 20 years and your whole league is grinding, congrats on being in a really good league. Most of my daily leagues involve people not trying as hard a few months in and even less so when they are out of it.

 

Daily is a much more hardcore version of fantasy baseball, and I enjoy it, but I also find it cheapened when everyone isnt grinding. If people have those Xs or Red Dots in their lineups often, its just not as competitive. 

My guess also is that those who enjoy the daily grind are finding themselves more and more just playing DFS versus being in a league that has daily results

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I understand the appeal of auction drafts, but what I can't learn to love about it is the fact that the poker game of auction strategy seems to outweigh the actual game of trying to evaluate players and draft the best team.  Unless you've got a league full of people who've done a lot of auctions before, you're always going to end up with guys who know auction strategy ending up with better teams than people who might know the player pool and how to draft a competitive team just as well, but aren't as good at the game of bluffing, price enforcing, who to nominate when, etc.  It does lead to a more interesting mix of roster configurations, but it feels like a lot more work than it's worth.

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2 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

I understand the appeal of auction drafts, but what I can't learn to love about it is the fact that the poker game of auction strategy seems to outweigh the actual game of trying to evaluate players and draft the best team.  Unless you've got a league full of people who've done a lot of auctions before, you're always going to end up with guys who know auction strategy ending up with better teams than people who might know the player pool and how to draft a competitive team just as well, but aren't as good at the game of bluffing, price enforcing, who to nominate when, etc.  It does lead to a more interesting mix of roster configurations, but it feels like a lot more work than it's worth.

Understand that sentiment, but to me there are a couple of things I think that make auctions appealing. 

* I think in a lot of ways it pays off the hard work more than drafts and being able to assess the landscape of players, positions, etc.  There is nothing more frustrating than sitting in a snake draft where a player gets called out by an owner who is pretty indifferent about the guy but calls him simply because he is the next guy on the list that he printed out.  In an auction, fine, that owner calls that guy but then if you really want him, a lot of times you can get him cheap, since that owner often times was not really all that interested, where you might have some info that makes him more appealing.  So I think it protects your info a little more. 

 

* The ability to build your roster how you want, if you want to say "Im getting Trout and Betts" - you can do that.  Again, I think in some ways, it pays off a little more knowledge. 

 

* I think in general an auction does a better price of appropriate cost/compensation.  Whether its football, baseball, etc.  How many conversations have we had about tiers within the rounds.  How there is a distinct advantage to a certain spot.  I think it was maybe last season, seemed like you had the top few studs, then there was a huge tier that went to the early part of the 3rd round, so it was a season where in a draft, those guys with the first few guys had an advantage, where a Trout is gonna cost you $60 but someone 5 ADP spots later might cost only $35, it seems to be more accurate cost/compensation in auctions for the guys in the first several rounds. 

 

I love the nuances of it too, but thats more a personal preference than more of the fairness component.  

 

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I'm starting a league this year with guys coming over from our fantasy football league.

 

Most of us have NEVER played fantasy baseball. 

 

We are going with H2H over rotisserie but which kind of league is more fun? 5x5 Categories or Total Points.

 

It seems that categories are the norm but overvalue certain stats. Total points seem to give you a true idea of what a player is worth.

 

It's kind of strange to me, an outsider, that total points are not the standard scoring.

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13 hours ago, clarkevii said:

I'm starting a league this year with guys coming over from our fantasy football league.

 

Most of us have NEVER played fantasy baseball. 

 

We are going with H2H over rotisserie but which kind of league is more fun? 5x5 Categories or Total Points.

 

It seems that categories are the norm but overvalue certain stats. Total points seem to give you a true idea of what a player is worth.

 

It's kind of strange to me, an outsider, that total points are not the standard scoring.

Smart decision going H2H ... I would suggest 5x5.

I am the exact opposite point system overvalues the real players worth. A guy who steal bases is not worth a heck of a lot in point system values. 

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14 hours ago, clarkevii said:

I'm starting a league this year with guys coming over from our fantasy football league.

 

Most of us have NEVER played fantasy baseball. 

 

We are going with H2H over rotisserie but which kind of league is more fun? 5x5 Categories or Total Points.

 

It seems that categories are the norm but overvalue certain stats. Total points seem to give you a true idea of what a player is worth.

 

It's kind of strange to me, an outsider, that total points are not the standard scoring.

As players transitioning from football, points will be easier to manage, as it is very similar to FF.

 

Categories is largely thought to be the harder format, and the more skill-based format because players and positions can't be quite as easily be valued, and you have to maintain a balance of player types as opposed to just assigning every single player a numerical value. Say, in football, you can pencil in Todd Gurley as 25 fantasy points per week, and in a points-based FB league, you can pencil in Mike Trout as 3.5 fantasy points per game (barring different scoring formats obviously), and you can plainly see that value over another player at any position. Whereas in categories, you could have a great array of players that are producing on paper, but if they are all home run hitters with low BA and no steals, then your team will stink regardless of how good the players are themselves. You have to manage to maintain a balance. 

 

In that regard, I would say that a points league can be a lot more accurate in valuing real life player talent if the scoring is set in such a way to keep real-life production valuation in mind. It doesn't matter if someone is a steals specialist or a plate discipline specialist- if the production is weighted in terms of real life value, it will rate each player accordingly; the dynamics of your own personal fantasy team or your opponents' teams doesn't matter in assigning the players an independent player value.

 

Personally, I like daily lineups over weekly lineups, because it keeps you involved every single day. That is the big reason why I like FB more than FF. Otherwise it just seems like a big drawn out FF league that overstays its welcome.

 

I also prefer H2H over roto, because having short-term goals to reach also keeps the season from dragging on for 6 months, and makes every week feel like a separate competition instead of just one long battle for 1st place.

 

Even while recognizing that categories teams are more skillful to maintain, I have more fun in points leagues. I like working with flat numbers to be able to find concrete answers to roster decisions. That kind of thinking is what makes me happy during the season. I would gladly play either H2H format though. Baseball is just fun if you let yourself get really engrossed in it.

 

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2 hours ago, jbj said:

As players transitioning from football, points will be easier to manage, as it is very similar to FF.

 

Categories is largely thought to be the harder format, and the more skill-based format because players and positions can't be quite as easily be valued, and you have to maintain a balance of player types as opposed to just assigning every single player a numerical value. Say, in football, you can pencil in Todd Gurley as 25 fantasy points per week, and in a points-based FB league, you can pencil in Mike Trout as 3.5 fantasy points per game (barring different scoring formats obviously), and you can plainly see that value over another player at any position. Whereas in categories, you could have a great array of players that are producing on paper, but if they are all home run hitters with low BA and no steals, then your team will stink regardless of how good the players are themselves. You have to manage to maintain a balance. 

 

In that regard, I would say that a points league can be a lot more accurate in valuing real life player talent if the scoring is set in such a way to keep real-life production valuation in mind. It doesn't matter if someone is a steals specialist or a plate discipline specialist- if the production is weighted in terms of real life value, it will rate each player accordingly; the dynamics of your own personal fantasy team or your opponents' teams doesn't matter in assigning the players an independent player value.

 

Personally, I like daily lineups over weekly lineups, because it keeps you involved every single day. That is the big reason why I like FB more than FF. Otherwise it just seems like a big drawn out FF league that overstays its welcome.

 

I also prefer H2H over roto, because having short-term goals to reach also keeps the season from dragging on for 6 months, and makes every week feel like a separate competition instead of just one long battle for 1st place.

 

Even while recognizing that categories teams are more skillful to maintain, I have more fun in points leagues. I like working with flat numbers to be able to find concrete answers to roster decisions. That kind of thinking is what makes me happy during the season. I would gladly play either H2H format though. Baseball is just fun if you let yourself get really engrossed in it.

 

 

Thank you. REALLY great feedback. I appreciate it. 

 

But, are Daily lineup leagues superior to Weekly? Is that more exciting?

 

As commish my concern is that people are going to be swapping starting pitches in and out constantly to maximize their starts. If that is the case would not you want to just pick up pitches off waivers and rotate bench pitches with starters. Maybe I'm just confused for how it works.

 

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7 minutes ago, clarkevii said:

 

Thank you. REALLY great feedback. I appreciate it. 

 

But, are Daily lineup leagues superior to Weekly? Is that more exciting?

 

As commish my concern is that people are going to be swapping starting pitches in and out constantly to maximize their starts. If that is the case would not you want to just pick up pitches off waivers and rotate bench pitches with starters. Maybe I'm just confused for how it works.

 

Streaming pitchers is a real thing that happens in daily leagues, and there are a few things to consider if you want to minimize that. In a standard 12 owner league, it isn't necessarily a super viable strategy to cycle in too many starting pitchers, because when a pitcher gets blown up they can go negative for fantasy points. That being said, it can still be an issue if someone is streaming too often. I would recommend either having a maximum number of player pickups each week, or setting a start limit. My leagues have had a pickup limit of maybe 4-6 players weekly, giving people the freedom to stream a few starters if they choose to, but also reprimanding owners who use all of their pickups because then they can't replace players for injuries or pickup the hot call-up later in the week.

 

In smaller daily points leagues, I would also recommend mandating rostering a catcher and two RP eligible pitchers, because otherwise the positions look next to useless compared to starting another SP in their stead, and it isn't as fun when all of the relievers and catchers are just sitting in free agency all year.

 

Daily lineups require a more attentive group of owners, and some people might get burnt out if they don't want to invest that amount of work/time, so it isn't for everybody. I think it is more exciting for my level of play, and like I said it keeps me more invested in the day-to-day of managing a fantasy team- keeps me more interested in everything going on in the sport.

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12 minutes ago, jbj said:

Streaming pitchers is a real thing that happens in daily leagues, and there are a few things to consider if you want to minimize that. In a standard 12 owner league, it isn't necessarily a super viable strategy to cycle in too many starting pitchers, because when a pitcher gets blown up they can go negative for fantasy points. That being said, it can still be an issue if someone is streaming too often. I would recommend either having a maximum number of player pickups each week, or setting a start limit. My leagues have had a pickup limit of maybe 4-6 players weekly, giving people the freedom to stream a few starters if they choose to, but also reprimanding owners who use all of their pickups because then they can't replace players for injuries or pickup the hot call-up later in the week.

 

In smaller daily points leagues, I would also recommend mandating rostering a catcher and two RP eligible pitchers, because otherwise the positions look next to useless compared to starting another SP in their stead, and it isn't as fun when all of the relievers and catchers are just sitting in free agency all year.

 

Daily lineups require a more attentive group of owners, and some people might get burnt out if they don't want to invest that amount of work/time, so it isn't for everybody. I think it is more exciting for my level of play, and like I said it keeps me more invested in the day-to-day of managing a fantasy team- keeps me more interested in everything going on in the sport.

Is that part of the appeal for some in the daily game?  Is getting into the stats and numbers of individual matchups and using that info to succeed?  I understand that might not be all that appealing to some, but if you are gonna go the daily route, my guess is that crowd is good with pitcher streaming. 

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11 minutes ago, parrothead said:

Is that part of the appeal for some in the daily game?  Is getting into the stats and numbers of individual matchups and using that info to succeed?  I understand that might not be all that appealing to some, but if you are gonna go the daily route, my guess is that crowd is good with pitcher streaming. 

Right, I like being able to play matchups and home/road, R/L splits and historical data to make lineup decisions, which makes pitch streaming a fun thing to do. That being said, I have seen some smaller leagues where streaming pitchers gets a tad ridiculous with it essentially just being a contest to see who can get the most starts in any given week. That is why I think that having a player acquisition limit is pretty important to make it more strategic as opposed to just flipping your entire pitching roster every day.

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I've never been a fan of league formats that facilitate too much streaming. For me, strategizing what you feel would be your best 4-6 moves per week is more fun that constantly firing starting pitchers at the wall and seeing what sticks.

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4 hours ago, Grinner said:

I've never been a fan of league formats that facilitate too much streaming. For me, strategizing what you feel would be your best 4-6 moves per week is more fun that constantly firing starting pitchers at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I am not a fan of those leagues that only give those 4-6 moves per week.

I want to manage my team and do what I believe is successful. Whether if it to make 2 or 10 moves per week. Let me run my team, not the dude (LM) who says we can only make 4-6 moves. If you have a problem with streaming starting pitchers, you install a small number like 8- 10 per week or put in a hard number. If you go over that hard you lose all the pitching categories except saves/holds. 

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19 hours ago, shakestreet said:

I am not a fan of those leagues that only give those 4-6 moves per week.

I want to manage my team and do what I believe is successful. Whether if it to make 2 or 10 moves per week. Let me run my team, not the dude (LM) who says we can only make 4-6 moves. If you have a problem with streaming starting pitchers, you install a small number like 8- 10 per week or put in a hard number. If you go over that hard you lose all the pitching categories except saves/holds. 

 

Our last league vote on rules (in 2017) had a question about the max number of weekly moves.

We are a 20-team league that started back in 2010. The average length of time a manager has been in this league is seven seasons.

The votes ranged from a low of three moves per week to a high of six. Quality over quantity. The median was four so that's where we're at now.

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21 hours ago, shakestreet said:

I am not a fan of those leagues that only give those 4-6 moves per week.

I want to manage my team and do what I believe is successful. Whether if it to make 2 or 10 moves per week. Let me run my team, not the dude (LM) who says we can only make 4-6 moves. If you have a problem with streaming starting pitchers, you install a small number like 8- 10 per week or put in a hard number. If you go over that hard you lose all the pitching categories except saves/holds. 

I agree, I think you either play H2H or you dont.  This is not football, there is not 1 game a week for every player - its an unbalanced schedule so going H2H to me the appealing part is truly feel like you are managing and playing the matchups OR at the very least, have really deep benches so you can juggle your lineup if you dont want people doing a ton of streaming/swapping.  I just think limited moves in H2H baseball is counter-intuitive to what that format is about. 

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On 12/13/2018 at 6:16 AM, Grinner said:

I've never been a fan of league formats that facilitate too much streaming. For me, strategizing what you feel would be your best 4-6 moves per week is more fun that constantly firing starting pitchers at the wall and seeing what sticks.

 

In all formats for any fantasy I generally prefer a large roster with weekly faab . First come first serve is not for me anymore. Rather take pride in analysis on a player than being quickest to react to a tweet .

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I always play roto in baseball....Main reason I have hated football over the years is when you do good but still lose while other teams suck but someone they are playing sucks even worse and they get wins. Roto baseball if your team does great all year you usually win. I have finished with the most points in h2h football and in last place before. If you team performs the best in roto baseball you win. Not luck of a pre draft schedule. Also like starting larger rosters so people that draft and do a better job with keepers get rewarded more often. 5 of's, mi, ci, 2 UT spots, 2 Catcher spots etc....I like first come first serve on free agents also everyday. Even though I am busy and miss out on many of them I like that the people that stay on top of things get rewarded for it rather then having rotoworld tell them who to pick up the next day. It is not streaming since you have caps on games played and innings pitched.

Edited by FantasyGeek2018

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