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kmoore1521

Kyler Murray OF OAK

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1 minute ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

Who would that grievance be filed with?

 

 

The Supreme Court... he DID sign a contract.  You can't just break contracts without repercussions.  A's already get his bonus back, they can recoup the loss of the pick from his NFL money legally.

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Think of this... his agent is Scott Boras, who is NOT an NFL agent.  He's not licensed to be an NFL agent.  Meaning, why is he still his agent if he ACTUALLY plans on playing in the NFL?   Boras can't talk to teams or even try and get Murray a contract.  Murray would have to find a new agent and yet he's not.  Why do you think that is?

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“Kyler has agreed and the [Oakland] A’s agreed to a baseball contract that gave him permission to play college football through the end of the collegiate season,” Scott Boras told the NFL Network. “After that, he is under contract to play baseball. That is not a determination to make. It’s already done.”

 

However, Boras told the NFL Network that, “from a contractual perspective, it is set.” He echoed that in an interview with ESPN, saying: “In good faith that organization did something very unique. Never done before. So [Murray] is going to reward the Oakland A’s and their owners, fans, by executing the agreement to its truest intent and now continue his baseball career.”

Edited by daynlokki

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25 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

The Supreme Court... he DID sign a contract.  You can't just break contracts without repercussions.  A's already get his bonus back, they can recoup the loss of the pick from his NFL money legally.

 

I genuinely don't want to start an argument here, but you don't just file grievances with the Supreme Court. 

 

Personal service contracts get broken all the time. with the main and only repercussion being you have to give back the money you didn't earn or not get paid if you haven't yet. You can't force someone to work for you, even if they signed a contract. Sometimes you can prevent someone who signed a contract from working for a competitor in a very limited and specific scope. A team in a different sport when you've never played for the first team would not be one of those instances.

 

When a player retires before his contract is up, he is also breaking his contract. It's the same thing, but that doesn't happen often and in the rare instance it does, both parties are very content with that decision.  Ben Wallace in the NBA is one example off the top of my head. He broke his contract. 

 

Whether you personally believe what Murray did was wrong is your opinion and you can definitely have that. A lot of people would agree with that. I wasn't privy to their direct conversations or care that much honestly. Maybe it was.   Legally speaking, there isn't a whole lot the A's can do to prevent him from playing football, despite signing a contract.  Maybe if certain criteria is met, they can file a lawsuit for fraud against him. Seems difficult and would be hard to prove actual damages. 

 

 

 

Edited by brockpapersizer

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53 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

A's already get his bonus back, they can recoup the loss of the pick from his NFL money legally.

 

The bonus back, obviously.  I'm not sure how they can prove how valuable the pick is and recoup that legally. If you have a link for that, I'd read it. Fascinating if true, that part seems hard to believe. 

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1 hour ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

I genuinely don't want to start an argument here, but you don't just file grievances with the Supreme Court. 

 

Personal service contracts get broken all the time. with the main and only repercussion being you have to give back the money you didn't earn or not get paid if you haven't yet. You can't force someone to work for you, even if they signed a contract. Sometimes you can prevent someone who signed a contract from working for a competitor in a very limited and specific scope. A team in a different sport when you've never played for the first team would not be one of those instances.

 

When a player retires before his contract is up, he is also breaking his contract. It's the same thing, but that doesn't happen often and in the rare instance it does, both parties are very content with that decision.  Ben Wallace in the NBA is one example off the top of my head. He broke his contract. 

 

Whether you personally believe what Murray did was wrong is your opinion and you can definitely have that. A lot of people would agree with that. I wasn't privy to their direct conversations or care that much honestly. Maybe it was.   Legally speaking, there isn't a whole lot the A's can do to prevent him from playing football, despite signing a contract.  Maybe if certain criteria is met, they can file a lawsuit for fraud against him. Seems difficult and would be hard to prove actual damages. 

 

 

 

It'd be more in the form of a lawsuit for breach of contract...  Retiring does NOT in any way, shape or form breach a contract at all.  That's just purely false.  They can't stop him from trying to play in the NFL but they can name the league in a suit as well.

Edited by daynlokki

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18 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

I feel like he's not an all-star/pro-bowl guy whichever way he chooses. He should get as much money as he can, if it's close, maybe stay baseball because you're less likely to have scrambled egg brains. 

 

Yeah baseball is the better sport if you want to survive for long past your playing years and in the long run can earn you more money and give you a much longer career.  Trouble is early 20-somethings seem to think they are the exception to the rule and they are indestructible and their brains will never be denoted by their families to science.

 

You don't have to earn the MOST money one way or the other.  Either way he can live quite comfortably financially.  It is about how long he wants to play a game for a living and whether he can live physically and mentally to enjoy his retirement from said game.

 

Yeah QB's are "protected" more than in the past but all it takes is one bad hit and your life as you knew it is basically over.  And being short like he is he will be squished like a bug because NFL-grade guards and tackles are not college-grade ones.

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3 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

 

Yeah baseball is the better sport if you want to survive for long past your playing years and in the long run can earn you more money and give you a much longer career.  Trouble is early 20-somethings seem to think they are the exception to the rule and they are indestructible and their brains will never be denoted by their families to science.

 

You don't have to earn the MOST money one way or the other.  Either way he can live quite comfortably financially.  It is about how long he wants to play a game for a living and whether he can live physically and mentally to enjoy his retirement from said game.

 

Yeah QB's are "protected" more than in the past but all it takes is one bad hit and your life as you knew it is basically over.  And being short like he is he will be squished like a bug because NFL-grade guards and tackles are not college-grade ones.

 

A 90 mph fastball to the face or head could have lasting consequences.

 

Happened to Kris Bryant just last season.

 

Risk involved in anything you choose.

 

Choose what makes you happy.

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11 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

A 90 mph fastball to the face or head could have lasting consequences.

 

Happened to Kris Bryant just last season.

 

Risk involved in anything you choose.

 

Choose what makes you happy.

The risk is MUCH higher in football overall.  

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You also don't always get a chance to choose what makes you happy once you already signed a contract to play somewhere.  He already made that choice by signing.  He didn't have to sign.  There was no gun to his head forcing him to sign a contract that directly stipulates that he is allowed to only play college football, but he still signed it.  If he already is backing out of that contract do you think an NFL team is going to take him with a high pick?  They already know his word isn't worth anything.  He doesn't even have an NFL agent.  Boras isn't allowed there lol.

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1 hour ago, daynlokki said:

You also don't always get a chance to choose what makes you happy once you already signed a contract to play somewhere.  He already made that choice by signing.  He didn't have to sign.  There was no gun to his head forcing him to sign a contract that directly stipulates that he is allowed to only play college football, but he still signed it.  If he already is backing out of that contract do you think an NFL team is going to take him with a high pick?  They already know his word isn't worth anything.  He doesn't even have an NFL agent.  Boras isn't allowed there lol.

 

If he stays in the NFL draft some team will take him ( like the Dolphins )

 

Sounds like you just don't like the fact that he is an undecided kid. They have stipulations to let him out of his contract. This isn't a dictatorship, the kid can do what he wants. This is a free market society. If he wants to leverage the NFL draft to squeeze more money ey from MLB I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to do it.

 

There is no moral code in a free market society. Use what you can to get what you can. He isn't the first athlete to do it and he won't be the last.

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34 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

If he stays in the NFL draft some team will take him ( like the Dolphins )

 

Sounds like you just don't like the fact that he is an undecided kid. They have stipulations to let him out of his contract. This isn't a dictatorship, the kid can do what he wants. This is a free market society. If he wants to leverage the NFL draft to squeeze more money ey from MLB I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to do it.

 

There is no moral code in a free market society. Use what you can to get what you can. He isn't the first athlete to do it and he won't be the last.

They don't have stipulations to get him out of his contract... that's the point.  The contract literally says he cannot play professional football and he ONLY can play college ball for this year.  That's it.  He can try and leverage all he wants, but his agent can't talk to NFL teams for him, so either he's doing it himself or all of this is just bull****.  Notice the A's not blink.  Probably for a reason methinks.

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That’s not how contracts work. I work with contracts every day hint hint. His part is only binding if that’s what he wants to do. He can do whatever he wants, his breaching of the contract will most likely only prevent him from getting paid by the As or signing with another baseball team in the majors. 

 

You can break contracts all the time, especially personal service contracts.  He’s not getting sued by the As because even if he’s breaching his contract the damages are very uncertain. 

 

Generally speaking you can sign a contract to work anywhere and quit the next day. You won’t get paid. You’ll have to prove malicious intent or prove damages with a high certainty to collect any more than wages not earned. This is very difficult to do. 

 

I don’t know the exact language of retirement in an mlb contract but if you think early retirement when under contract isn’t a breach , then he’s just retiring from baseball. It’s the same thing. 

 

If if we sign a contract for me to write a fantasy baseball article for you for $1000 and then I decide not to, yes I have breached the contract. You will not pay me $1000 bucks, best of luck getting anything else. You won’t.  

 

In in regards to if a team will draft him or not? I don’t know, I saw one tweet about a gm saying he’s a first rounder. I won’t guarantee that, I have no idea. Seems like he’s getting drafted though. 

 

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50 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

That’s not how contracts work. I work with contracts every day hint hint. His part is only binding if that’s what he wants to do. He can do whatever he wants, his breaching of the contract will most likely only prevent him from getting paid by the As or signing with another baseball team in the majors. 

 

You can break contracts all the time, especially personal service contracts.  He’s not getting sued by the As because even if he’s breaching his contract the damages are very uncertain. 

 

Generally speaking you can sign a contract to work anywhere and quit the next day. You won’t get paid. You’ll have to prove malicious intent or prove damages with a high certainty to collect any more than wages not earned. This is very difficult to do. 

 

I don’t know the exact language of retirement in an mlb contract but if you think early retirement when under contract isn’t a breach , then he’s just retiring from baseball. It’s the same thing. 

 

If if we sign a contract for me to write a fantasy baseball article for you for $1000 and then I decide not to, yes I have breached the contract. You will not pay me $1000 bucks, best of luck getting anything else. You won’t.  

 

In in regards to if a team will draft him or not? I don’t know, I saw one tweet about a gm saying he’s a first rounder. I won’t guarantee that, I have no idea. Seems like he’s getting drafted though. 

 

Then he's most likely losing money.  No NFL GM is going to look at him with the uncertainty following him and say he's for sure going to sign.  He literally told the media in interviews that he was ONLY playing baseball.  His agent, which I have directly quoted above also said the exact same thing.  If you think a professional league like the NFL is going to applaud him for breaching a contract then I have no idea where you work or what you consider ethics.  Half the league probably took him off their draft board just for that, let alone his small hand size, or the fact that he is either 5'8" or 5'9" and 185 lbs.  So how is he contacting the NFL teams Brock?  He doesn't HAVE an NFL agent.  Boras is literally not allowed to speak to NFL teams.  He isn't licensed to do so.  

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So they measured him at 5'9 and 7/8 officially. I'm not even as worried about the height as I am the weight. 195 pounds is very slim for any QB, especially one that is going to be scrambling.

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3 minutes ago, Carlos Correa said:

So they measured him at 5'9 and 7/8 officially. I'm not even as worried about the height as I am the weight. 195 pounds is very slim for any QB, especially one that is going to be scrambling.

Yup, on a bad team most likely with a bad offensive line.  Wait until they start comparing his hands to Wilson.

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Kyler Murray is a fascinating NFL Draft prospect. His size presents limitations to consistently see intermediate breaks in the MOF and will pose an injury concern in the NFL.

 

That is from his current draft profile for the NFL.

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34 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

Then he's most likely losing money.  No NFL GM is going to look at him with the uncertainty following him and say he's for sure going to sign.  He literally told the media in interviews that he was ONLY playing baseball.  His agent, which I have directly quoted above also said the exact same thing.  If you think a professional league like the NFL is going to applaud him for breaching a contract then I have no idea where you work or what you consider ethics.  Half the league probably took him off their draft board just for that, let alone his small hand size, or the fact that he is either 5'8" or 5'9" and 185 lbs.  So how is he contacting the NFL teams Brock?  He doesn't HAVE an NFL agent.  Boras is literally not allowed to speak to NFL teams.  He isn't licensed to do so.  

 

 

It is unnecessary to call my ethics into question when I am discussing Kyler Murray's situation. 

 

I have no idea if Kyler Murray will be drafted, which round, or if he will choose to play baseball.  I do know that he is not required by law to play baseball and may choose to play football if he decides to. Please take that and only that.  If you said half the league took him off the board, does that not mean half the league still has him on their board?  Again I'm not going to guarantee one way or the other what will happen, I was merely trying to help you understand how a contract works from a legal perspective.  NFL players hold out every single year despite the fact they have signed a contract.  Is someone rewarding Levon Bell this offseason?

Edited by brockpapersizer

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36 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

 

It is unnecessary to call my ethics into question when I am discussing Kyler Murray's situation. 

 

I have no idea if Kyler Murray will be drafted, which round, or if he will choose to play baseball.  I do know that he is not required by law to play baseball and may choose to play football if he decides to. Please take that and only that.  If you said half the league took him off the board, does that not mean half the league still has him on their board?  Again I'm not going to guarantee one way or the other what will happen, I was merely trying to help you understand how a contract works from a legal perspective.  NFL players hold out every single year despite the fact they have signed a contract.  Is someone rewarding Levon Bell this offseason?

If you feel I called your ethics into question that's on you.  I said that I then had no idea what your ethics were then.  If you feel guilty about that then that should tell us all we need to know at that point.  No, he's not required by law to play baseball.  Per his contract he IS required to not play football though.  That's where the breach is.  It SPECIFICALLY says he cannot play football besides this one year in college.  You keep glossing over that fact and for someone who works with contracts that's disturbing.  Will someone sign Bell?  Probably.  Of course, he never signed his tender agreement and therefore was legally not under contract last year.  Yes, people hold out.  They also get fined every week they hold out.  It's up to the team to waive those fines at their discretion which normally happens.  

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19 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

 Per his contract he IS required to not play football though.  That's where the breach is.  It SPECIFICALLY says he cannot play football besides this one year in college.  You keep glossing over that fact and for someone who works with contracts that's disturbing.  

 

Yes, he is required to not play football to keep his baseball contract valid.  By playing football, he is breaching that, which he can do, but then the A's are not required to uphold any of their promises.  

 

 

Edited by brockpapersizer
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On 1/16/2019 at 2:13 PM, daynlokki said:

“Kyler has agreed and the [Oakland] A’s agreed to a baseball contract that gave him permission to play college football through the end of the collegiate season,” Scott Boras told the NFL Network. “After that, he is under contract to play baseball. That is not a determination to make. It’s already done.”

 

However, Boras told the NFL Network that, “from a contractual perspective, it is set.” He echoed that in an interview with ESPN, saying: “In good faith that organization did something very unique. Never done before. So [Murray] is going to reward the Oakland A’s and their owners, fans, by executing the agreement to its truest intent and now continue his baseball career.”

 

"In good faith"

 

Key words in there meaning non binding.

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16 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

Yes, he is required to not play football to keep his baseball contract valid.  By playing football, he is breaching that, which he can do, but then the A's are not required to uphold any of their promises.  

 

 

Here's the fun part.  The NFL may not allow him to play even if he's drafted because of the agreement already signed since it specifically precludes him from playing football.  If they don't, Jameis Winston is thinking about a law suit of his own since his contract precludes him from playing in the MLB and he was forced to give that up.

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6 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

"In good faith"

 

Key words in there meaning non binding.

In good faith does NOT mean non binding.  It means they gave him college football as a gesture.  His contract specifically states he can play college but not NFL.  He signed the contract.  Sets a bad precedent to go around that clause in an MLB contract while you have several NFL players who have a similar clause precluding them from playing in the MLB.  All 'in good faith' means is sincerity of intention.  Notice you skirt around the first part where his agent says he's playing baseball.  That's not a determination, it's done already.

 

In good faith would be like the Seahawks allowing Russell Wilson to go to Yankees spring training.  He's not allowed to play in the MLB and he cannot play in any of the games but they allow him to be a part of the media circus there and have fun with fans.  They don't have to.

Edited by daynlokki

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6 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

In good faith does NOT mean non binding.  It means they gave him college football as a gesture.  His contract specifically states he can play college but not NFL.  He signed the contract.  Sets a bad precedent to go around that clause in an MLB contract while you have several NFL players who have a similar clause precluding them from playing in the MLB.  All 'in good faith' means is sincerity of intention.  Notice you skirt around the first part where his agent says he's playing baseball.  That's not a determination, it's done already.

 

Setting a bad precedent is not illegal.

 

He can break the baseball contract as easy as a phone call to Jimmy Sexton and if he gets a 1st round grade he certainly well might do that. Saying that MLB would sue the NFL is laughable in my opinion. They might be able to go after Murray for compensatory damages but I doubt the public scrutiny just over a kid deciding to play football would hardly be worth whatever they were able to recover. 

 

I don't know the ins and outs of baseball and their rookie draft pics but I'm pretty sure if Kyler breaches his contract and has to give his money back that they As will receive some sort of compensatory pick but I really don't know that for sure.

 

 

Edited by DerrickHenrysCleats
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2 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

Setting a bad precedent is not illegal.

 

He can break the baseball contract as easy as a phone call to Jimmy Sexton and if he gets a 1st round grade he certainly well might do that. Saying that MLB would sue the NFL is laughable in my opinion. They might be able to go after Murray for compensatory damages but I doubt the public scrutiny just over a kid deciding to play football would hardly be worth whatever they were able to recover. 

 

I don't know the ins and outs of baseball and their rookie draft pics but I'm pretty sure if Kyler breaches his contract and has to give his money back that they As will receive some sort of compensatory pick but I really don't know that for sure.

 

 

A's get his signing bonus back and just lose a top 10 pick, no compensation.  His contract and the fact he signed it with it not allowing the NFL is where he opens himself to litigation.  A's just have to prove they lost something and the value of that pick.  Which I'm sure with Billy Beane they will be able to quantify the cost of a top 10 pick money wise.

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