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kmoore1521

Kyler Murray OF OAK

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I basically see it as this.

 

Mumbo jumbo in the contract he signed is irrelevant if he pays back every penny of his signing bonus.

 

If he does that he will have voided his contract and would therefore be able to enter the NFL draft with no obstruction. 

 

So, No matter what is said by agents or anyone none of it will matter until Kyler returns his entire signing bonus money.

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1 minute ago, daynlokki said:

A's get his signing bonus back and just lose a top 10 pick, no compensation.  His contract and the fact he signed it with it not allowing the NFL is where he opens himself to litigation.  A's just have to prove they lost something and the value of that pick.  Which I'm sure with Billy Beane they will be able to quantify the cost of a top 10 pick money wise.

 

The A's knew Kyler Murray to the NFL was a possibility.

 

Can't claim they had not considered it.

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What's really funny is that his father did a similar thing.  Played for the Brewers with a 35k signing bonus, after a year he decided to quit and move to college football.  He didn't have the specific no NFL clause and so was allowed to play by a judge but he WAS sued by the Brewers.   He broke records for Texas A & M and while a good player, the NFL refused to draft him.  He lost his future there.

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2 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

The A's knew Kyler Murray to the NFL was a possibility.

 

Can't claim they had not considered it.

Of course they considered it.  That's why his contract forbade him from joining the NFL.  They gave him the year in college football as an act of good faith so he would sign.  Otherwise he might have walked.  Would have been better if he had at this point.  There will be a legal battle here.  Even if he's picked in the first round of the NFL draft, there is a chance he might lose his entire rookie contract in it.

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5 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

I basically see it as this.

 

Mumbo jumbo in the contract he signed is irrelevant if he pays back every penny of his signing bonus.

 

If he does that he will have voided his contract and would therefore be able to enter the NFL draft with no obstruction. 

 

So, No matter what is said by agents or anyone none of it will matter until Kyler returns his entire signing bonus money.

No it matters.  A law suit has already happened for the same exact reason with his father.  Difference was, his father's contract didn't directly stipulate he couldn't play football.  That's one of the reasons they have that clause now.  Brewers lost because he didn't have it in his contract.

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38 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

No it matters.  A law suit has already happened for the same exact reason with his father.  Difference was, his father's contract didn't directly stipulate he couldn't play football.  That's one of the reasons they have that clause now.  Brewers lost because he didn't have it in his contract.

 

I think you are missing the point.

 

The not playing in the NFL clause is only relevant if he keeps the signing bonus.if he returns the money everything in that contract will be voided.

 

At least that's how I see it being ruled on if a lawsuit was filed.

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Just now, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

I think you are missing the point.

 

The not playing in the NFL clause is only relevant if he keeps the signing bonus.if he returns the money everything in that contract will be voided.

 

At least that's how I see it being ruled on if a lawsuit was filed.

Not how it works in the least.  Only reason his dad didn't lose the exact same lawsuit is because the clause wasn't in his contract.  That's the point you are missing.  This would be the first case WITH the clause as a part of it.  No player in the NFL or MLB has tried to fight it.  Hutchinson moving to the NFL got the clause while in the NFL, Winston currently has the same clause, as does Russell Wilson.  I mean, doesn't mean it isn't insurmountable, but if the A's could prove he acted on bad faith, there is definitely a law suit in the works.  Which would be why we haven't heard anything from the A's as they cannot comment while litigation is pending.

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1 hour ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

. Saying that MLB would sue the NFL is laughable in my opinion. 

 

You missed the filing a grievance with the Supreme Court part.

 

---------

 

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2019/1/13/18181345/kyler-murray-football-baseball-draft

 

 

There are several possible outcomes here. All of them should end with Murray doing whatever he wants and nobody feeling bad for the A’s.

Outcome 1: The A’s give Murray more money or some kind of special accommodating, and MLB allows it.

Outcome 2: The A’s can’t give Murray more money or a special accommodation, because MLB won’t allow it.

Outcome 3: The A’s choose not to give Murray any of that, even though MLB allows it, because they’d rather pay less money than have Murray play for them.

Outcome 4: Murray leaves baseball for football for any reason he chooses and follows the same process anyone under contract would while changing jobs in the U.S. economy.

 

Changing jobs while under contract is very common. The provision about  not letting him play football is in regards to his baseball contract. Once he chooses to change jobs, the baseball contract doesn't control him. 

 

Whether one thinks he's morally/ethically wrong to choose football after signing a baseball contract is subjective. I personally, do not care. 

Edited by brockpapersizer
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11 hours ago, daynlokki said:

Not how it works in the least.  Only reason his dad didn't lose the exact same lawsuit is because the clause wasn't in his contract.  That's the point you are missing.  This would be the first case WITH the clause as a part of it.  No player in the NFL or MLB has tried to fight it.  Hutchinson moving to the NFL got the clause while in the NFL, Winston currently has the same clause, as does Russell Wilson.  I mean, doesn't mean it isn't insurmountable, but if the A's could prove he acted on bad faith, there is definitely a law suit in the works.  Which would be why we haven't heard anything from the A's as they cannot comment while litigation is pending.

 

I just don't see it happening.

 

As the article that brockpapersizer added a link to references; his situation has changed, like many do. When he signed that clause he was just QB for Oklahoma and he went on to have one of the greatest seasons ever for a college QB, so his situation has changed and now potentially has plenty of big time offers. Don't see how Murray acted in bad faith by having one of the best college seasons in history and received a 1st round draft grade. At this point Murray is potentially gonna get drafted and offered a contract that would dwarf his MLB signing bonus. 

 

MLB obviously sees this as an issue they would lose or why would they consider signing Murray immediately to the 40 man roster to guarantee him more money to ultimately choose baseball when that has never been done before? Cause they know the threat of him going to the NFL is real. It's probably just a leverage move by Murray but still shrewd cause he knows he is in a better bargaining place. 

 

Better to be bargaining from a position of strength as oppose to a position of weakness.

 

MLB threatining a lawsuit to force compensation from Murray or the NFL would look like sour grapes and probably why it hasn't been mentioned anywhere other than fan driven fantasy message boards.

 

Just my opinion that Murray uses his position to force baseball to sign him to a contract. Maybe something like the Phillies gave Scott Kingery, which would be a first for MLB I believe.

Edited by DerrickHenrysCleats
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52 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

I just don't see it happening.

 

As the article that brockpapersizer added a link to references; his situation has changed, like many do. When he signed that clause he was just QB for Oklahoma and he went on to have one of the greatest seasons ever for a college QB, so his situation has changed and now potentially has plenty of big time offers. Don't see how Murray acted in bad faith by having one of the best college seasons in history and received a 1st round draft grade. At this point Murray is potentially gonna get drafted and offered a contract that would dwarf his MLB signing bonus. 

 

MLB obviously sees this as an issue they would lose or why would they consider signing Murray immediately to the 40 man roster to guarantee him more money to ultimately choose baseball when that has never been done before? Cause they know the threat of him going to the NFL is real. It's probably just a leverage move by Murray but still shrewd cause he knows he is in a better bargaining place. 

 

Better to be bargaining from a position of strength as oppose to a position of weakness.

 

MLB threatining a lawsuit to force compensation from Murray or the NFL would look like sour grapes and probably why it hasn't been mentioned anywhere other than fan driven fantasy message boards.

 

Just my opinion that Murray uses his position to force baseball to sign him to a contract. Maybe something like the Phillies gave Scott Kingery, which would be a first for MLB I believe.

They can't.  It's against the rules of the MLB.  So unless they change rules specifically for one player he has exactly what the rules already allow...  Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it won't happen.  Literally his dad was sued by the Brewers over the exact same thing.  You think the A's wouldn't know that and have language in the contract to lock him in or penalize him further if he moved to the NFL?  

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God i hope he picks football so that i can watch this thread burn and see someone eat crow 

 

Image result for burning elmo gif

Edited by kmoore1521
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1 hour ago, daynlokki said:

They can't.  It's against the rules of the MLB.  So unless they change rules specifically for one player he has exactly what the rules already allow...  Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it won't happen.  Literally his dad was sued by the Brewers over the exact same thing.  You think the A's wouldn't know that and have language in the contract to lock him in or penalize him further if he moved to the NFL?  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/16/kyler-murray-mlb-nfl-oklahoma-draft-oakland-as

 

 

ESPN reported on Sunday that MLB had given the A’s approval to offer Murray a major league deal with significant guaranteed money – Murray wants $15m – in an effort to convince him to stick to baseball. MLB rules prevent teams from signing players right out of the draft to major league deals, but Murray’s situation is considered unique given his post-draft success and national relevancy.

 

 

 

sounds like MLB has given the A's unprecedented permission to pursue a guaranteed contract north of 15 million guaranteed to ensure Kyler picks baseball over football.

 

i appreciate that kylers dad was sued but it looks like Kyler is re-writing the rule book in regards to drafted players contracts simply by proving he is worth just as much and more to an NFL team.

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2 hours ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/16/kyler-murray-mlb-nfl-oklahoma-draft-oakland-as

 

 

ESPN reported on Sunday that MLB had given the A’s approval to offer Murray a major league deal with significant guaranteed money – Murray wants $15m – in an effort to convince him to stick to baseball. MLB rules prevent teams from signing players right out of the draft to major league deals, but Murray’s situation is considered unique given his post-draft success and national relevancy.

 

 

 

sounds like MLB has given the A's unprecedented permission to pursue a guaranteed contract north of 15 million guaranteed to ensure Kyler picks baseball over football.

 

i appreciate that kylers dad was sued but it looks like Kyler is re-writing the rule book in regards to drafted players contracts simply by proving he is worth just as much and more to an NFL team.

And they might, but they don't HAVE to is the point.  Kyler still hasn't signed an NFL agent.  Why do you think that is?

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4 hours ago, kmoore1521 said:

God i hope he picks football so that i can watch this thread burn and see someone eat crow 

 

Image result for burning elmo gif

If he does, he does.  Doesn't preclude the A's from suing him like the Brewers sued his father over the exact same thing as an 11th round pick.

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17 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

You missed the filing a grievance with the Supreme Court part.

 

After a grievance is filed by the MLB it goes to the Supreme Court if there is an appeal... which there would be.  I'd assume you'd know this if you work in contracts as you say.  The Supreme Court has already had the MLB in it numerous times.  In fact, MLB vs Steve Garvey was a thing for awhile.  Justice Ginsberg wrote on it.

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24 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

After a grievance is filed by the MLB it goes to the Supreme Court if there is an appeal... which there would be.  I'd assume you'd know this if you work in contracts as you say.  The Supreme Court has already had the MLB in it numerous times.  In fact, MLB vs Steve Garvey was a thing for awhile.  Justice Ginsberg wrote on it.

Any chance you drafted and own Murray in a fantasy league? 

 

IMO, MLB needs to come up with a solution to keep this from happening again. Compensation of some sort. Or teams just need to learn from this and not allow a player to improve their draft stock in another sport. Had the A's not given Murray permission to pursue football at OK, we would not be seeing this.

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4 minutes ago, Bips_braves said:

Any chance you drafted and own Murray in a fantasy league? 

 

IMO, MLB needs to come up with a solution to keep this from happening again. Compensation of some sort. Or teams just need to learn from this and not allow a player to improve their draft stock in another sport. Had the A's not given Murray permission to pursue football at OK, we would not be seeing this.

Nope, as soon as I heard he was playing football still at his size I took him off my draft board.  Way too much of a chance for injury at 5'9" and 180 lbs.   If they A's hadn't given him permission to play football at OK, this board wouldn't be up because he wouldn't have signed.  It would have worked out better though, since they would have the pick still this draft.

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1 hour ago, daynlokki said:

And they might, but they don't HAVE to is the point.  Kyler still hasn't signed an NFL agent.  Why do you think that is?

 

Because he doesn't have to. Having an agent only matter for Kyler after he gets drafted.

 

All the way up to draft day all the A's have to worry about is whether or not Miami will take Kyler Murray with the 1.13 pick.

 

Mel Kiper of ESPN already has him mocked to go to Miami at 1.13

 

If they think he will they just might make major league history and do what has never been done before. 

 

Mostly because they could sue but it won't amount to much of anything, just like what happened with Kylers dad when he got sued, nothing really happened.

 

 

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1 minute ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

Because he doesn't have to. Having an agent only matter for Kyler after he gets drafted.

 

All the way up to draft day all the A's have to worry about is whether or not Miami will take Kyler Murray with the 1.13 pick.

 

Mel Kiper of ESPN already has him mocked to go to Miami at 1.13

 

If they think he will they just might make major league history and do what has never been done before. 

 

Mostly because they could sue but it won't amount to much of anything, just like what happened with Kylers dad when he got sued, nothing really happened.

 

 

Agent matters a TON in the NFL prior to the draft... The only time a player gets to talk to the team is during interviews, that's it.  Nothing happened with Kevin Murray because he didn't have a clause stipulating he cannot play another sport specifically.  Literally why there is that clause now in contracts like Russell Wilson and Jameis Winston.  

Edited by daynlokki

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1 hour ago, daynlokki said:

After a grievance is filed by the MLB it goes to the Supreme Court if there is an appeal... which there would be.  I'd assume you'd know this if you work in contracts as you say.  The Supreme Court has already had the MLB in it numerous times.  In fact, MLB vs Steve Garvey was a thing for awhile.  Justice Ginsberg wrote on it.

 

I mean, there's a court between basic federal and the Supreme Court, it's very hard to get to the Supreme Court, there's absolutely no guarantee it would be appealed twice let alone even taken to court to begin with.  You've missed a whole bunch of principles of basic contract law such as proof of damages, which in the case of proving what Kyler Murray is worth to the team, is almost impossible to prove reasonably beyond the loss of the signing bonus. You can be in the right on a lawsuit and collect nothing if you cant prove to high degree of certainty what the damages are, you don't just get to make it up. You don't really seem to grasp how clauses in contracts work or know that many clauses are often unenforceable despite being agreed to by both parties. Your idea of how the law works and reality just don't line up here, sorry. So, I think I'm done trying to explain basic contract principles to someone who doesn't want to know them and thinks you can just file grievances with the Supreme Court.

 

I don't know where Murray ends up, but he'll play where he wants. 

Edited by brockpapersizer
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10 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

Agent matters a TON in the NFL prior to the draft... Nothing happened with Kevin Murray because he didn't have a clause stipulating he cannot play another sport specifically.  Literally why there is that clause now in contracts like Russell Wilson and Jameis Winston.  

 

And a lawyer will argue that his situation is changed and money returned so therefore the contract is non bindinhg.

 

Why does Murray need an agent before the draft? They discuss contract details predraft? Most players do but this isn't a standard situation.

 

Kyler could not hire an agent, get drafted 1.13 then call Jimmy Sexton to represent him and could sign a contract worth over 20 million guaranteed before training camp. Unconventional? Yes but Murray is re-writing the MLB rule book if MLB allows the As to guarantee him over 15 million. This is all on the As. As mentioned earlier if they didn't want this to be a problem they should have made his acceptance of the signing bonus an agreement to not play QB this past year at Oklahoma, they didn't do that and now that's why you are watching Murray make history.

 

2018 round 1 pick 13 got an 8 million dollar signing bonus and a base salary of 3.3 million per year for 4 years with a team option for a 5th. That's over 20 million guaranteed for 4 years.

 

MLB can try and come up with a frivolous lawsuit against Murray for any number of things but they will lose and even if they get some obscure ruling in their favor the compensation would be deminimus. The A's willingness to succumb to Murray's demands is proof of that.

 

In my opinion.

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1 minute ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

I mean, there's a court between basic federal and the Supreme Court, it's very hard to get to the Supreme Court, there's absolutely no guarantee it would be appealed twice let alone even taken to court to begin with.  You've missed a while bunch of principles of basic contract law such as proof of damages, which in the case of proving what Kyler Murray is worth to the team, is almost impossible to prove reasonably beyond the loss of the signing bonus.  You don't really seem to grasp how clauses in contracts work or know that many clauses are often unenforceable despite being agreed to by both parties. Your idea of how the law works and reality just don't line up here, sorry. So, I think I'm done trying to explain basic contract principles to someone who doesn't want to know them.

 

I don't know where Murray ends up, but he'll play where he wants. 

It would easily get the two appeals if it came down to it because Murray would have to support himself in the case with no bonus money yet.  A's would try and get him to spend so much he wouldn't be able to stay afloat.  I'm almost 100% sure Billy Beane could quantify a loss and how much that loss was to a judge.  They can already prove damages as they are losing a top 10 pick as a small market team.  I bet you can find a calculator online showing how much that pick is generally worth to teams if you tried looking.  This isn't a basic contract principle as there are currently only a handful of players with this clause in their contracts, and Murray would be the first ever to sign a contract such as this then back out of it.  You trying to play it off like it is something 100% basic is untrue.

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4 minutes ago, DerrickHenrysCleats said:

 

And a lawyer will argue that his situation is changed and money returned so therefore the contract is non bindinhg.

 

Why does Murray need an agent before the draft? They discuss contract details predraft? Most players do but this isn't a standard situation.

 

Kyler could not hire an agent, get drafted 1.13 then call Jimmy Sexton to represent him and could sign a contract worth over 20 million guaranteed before training camp. Unconventional? Yes but Murray is re-writing the MLB rule book if MLB allows the As to guarantee him over 15 million. This is all on the As. As mentioned earlier if they didn't want this to be a problem they should have made his acceptance of the signing bonus an agreement to not play QB this past year at Oklahoma, they didn't do that and now that's why you are watching Murray make history.

 

2018 round 1 pick 13 got an 8 million dollar signing bonus and a base salary of 3.3 million per year for 4 years with a team option for a 5th. That's over 20 million guaranteed for 4 years.

 

MLB can try and come up with a frivolous lawsuit against Murray for any number of things but they will lose and even if they get some obscure ruling in their favor the compensation would be deminimus. The A's willingness to succumb to Murray's demands is proof of that.

 

In my opinion.

There are no contract options pre draft... just like the MLB draft, all draft slots are locked in the NFL draft.  You can't ask for more money, it's not allowed.  The only thing that changes in contracts is morality clauses and clauses such as the no NFL clause he currently has.  There is no guarantee he will be a top 15 pick.  Just because Kiper's first mock had him going there doesn't mean he will.  Kiper has been horribly wrong pretty much several times every single year.  He had Cook at QB mocked in the first round...

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This case would set a precedent for the MLB.  If you think the A's and the MLB as a whole will just back down then you're just plain wrong.  Especially since without being in the NFL yet and while walking away from an MLB contract Murray must pay all his legal fees himself.  Normally, situations vs the MLB or NFL the player's union foots the bill.  

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Brock you need to understand that these are opinions based on the past.  The MLB has already had a similar lawsuit against his father in a less liberal state.  California would love to hear a case such as this and the MLB would love to push for it, because they need the precedent on their side.  Without it, MLB teams will completely stop going after 2 sport stars.  They NEED this win.  They might not win.  They may be ruled against.  That won't stop them from trying to bury Murray in debt until he gives in.  Without the backing of the player's union they can do just that.  He doesn't currently have a contract the moment he doesn't report to spring training.  At that point, he's no longer going to be protected by the MLBPA.  That's when they will strike.  In that time prior to the NFL draft and after spring training starts.  If the proceedings begin before he is drafted the NFLPA won't be a part of it either.  All the court costs would have to be funded by a college player with limited finances.  It's a smart move.

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