Joe Odam

Damien Williams 2019 Outlook

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Posted (edited)

dmb3684 -

 

Do you ever offer anything constructive on this forum? Or are you just here to troll and mislead people??

Edited by elroypedro

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11 minutes ago, elroypedro said:

dmb3684 -

 

Do you ever offer anything constructive on this forum? Or are you just here to troll and mislead people??

elroy, in all earnestness, you can't call everyone who disagrees with your posts a "troll." it's unbecoming.

all @dmb3684 said was, "Hyde's pretty good when healthy, think most agree."

and based on what's being said here in this thread by other posters like @andypro77 and @rschroeder1, and me, it's clear that some agree with dmb's post.

consider: your posts are very heavy in pointing out hyde's worthlessness last year, 2018. and we all agree with you.

but your posts do not count hyde's last full-time job, just two years ago, 2017, when hyde was actually given a real shot and was healthy for all 16 games: 59 catches is pretty solid, right? that's more receptions than 2017's #3 RB kareem hunt, the #5 RB melvin gordon, and the #6 RB mark ingram. 8 rushing TDs ain't shabby as it ties hyde for 6th. and 1288 yards helped hyde to finish 2017, in his full-time role, at #11 in fantasy points overall for RBs in standard. in PPR, carlos hyde ended the year at #8 overall. https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/leaders/ppr-rb.php?year=2017

#8 PPR and #11 standard are highly respectable numbers representative of his potential.

8n7ftSe.gif

 

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36 minutes ago, elroypedro said:

dmb3684 -

 

Do you ever offer anything constructive on this forum? Or are you just here to troll and mislead people??

 

I said 'Hyde's pretty good when healthy'.

 

I suck at trolling if that is the best I can come up with. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Sack Exchange said:

elroy, in all earnestness, you can't call everyone who disagrees with your posts a "troll." it's unbecoming.

all @dmb3684 said was, "Hyde's pretty good when healthy, think most agree."

and based on what's being said here in this thread by other posters like @andypro77 and @rschroeder1, and me, it's clear that some agree with dmb's post.

consider: your posts are very heavy in pointing out hyde's worthlessness last year, 2018. and we all agree with you.

but your posts do not count hyde's last full-time job, just two years ago, 2017, when hyde was actually given a real shot and was healthy for all 16 games: 59 catches is pretty solid, right? that's more receptions than 2017's #3 RB kareem hunt, the #5 RB melvin gordon, and the #6 RB mark ingram. 8 rushing TDs ain't shabby as it ties hyde for 6th. and 1288 yards helped hyde to finish 2017, in his full-time role, at #11 in fantasy points overall for RBs in standard. in PPR, carlos hyde ended the year at #8 overall. https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/leaders/ppr-rb.php?year=2017

#8 PPR and #11 standard are highly respectable numbers representative of his potential.

8n7ftSe.gif

 

 

Dmb said that, which is provably wrong. Then when proved 100% wrong, his reaction is to laugh at a post. He is just a troll, and like he says above, a bad one. 

 

The ONLY reason for his above post about Carlos Hyde is either to troll this thread, because it has been shown and proven beyond any doubt over and over again in this thread that Hyde is an awful, below replacement level back. Or it is to mislead less informed readers here who haven’t read through the thread.

 

And then his response to getting called out is to laugh, clearly just cementing that he is trolling.

 

Again, why would he even post here if those are his motives and he presents ZERO content or analysis or anything else beneficial to this forum?

Edited by elroypedro
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Posted (edited)

Further, here is a list of backs that are better than Hyde at this point. There are another 10-20 in his range, and another 10+- entering the league this year as well. He is somewhere around back #60 and he is going downhill fast at this point. Like I said, most teams have 1 or 2, some 3 backs that are inarguably better than Hyde on their roster. More will be added in less than a week:

 

ARIZONA CARDINALS

Johnson, Edmonds

ATLANTA FALCONS

Freeman, Smith

BALTIMORE RAVENS

Ingram, Edwards

BUFFALO BILLS

Yeldon, McCoy, Gore

CAROLINA PANTHERS

McCaffery

CHICAGO BEARS

Cohen, Davis

CINCINNATI BENGALS

Mixon, Bernard

CLEVELAND BROWNS

Chubb, Hunt, Duke Johnson

DALLAS COWBOYS

Elliott

DENVER BRONCOS

Lindsay, Freeman

DETROIT LIONS

Johnson, CJA

GREEN BAY PACKERS

Jones, Williams

HOUSTON TEXANS

Miller, Foreman

INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

Mack, Hines

JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS

Fournette

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS

Williams

LOS ANGELES CHARGERS

Gordon, Ekeler

LOS ANGELES RAMS

Gurley

MIAMI DOLPHINS

Drake, Ballage

MINNESOTA VIKINGS

Cook

NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS

Michel, White, Burkhead

NEW ORLEANS SAINTS

Kamara, Murray

NEW YORK GIANTS

Barkley

NEW YORK JETS

Bell, McGuire

OAKLAND RAIDERS

Crowell, Lynch

PHILADELPHIA EAGLES

Howard

PITTSBURGH STEELERS

Conner, Samuels

SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS

McKinnon, Coleman, Breida, Mostert

SEATTLE SEAHAWKS

Carson, Penny

TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS

TENNESSEE TITANS

Henry, Lewis

WASHINGTON REDSKINS

Guice, Peterson, Thompson

 
Looks like he could possibly play in a committee in TB, as Barber and Jones are in his range. They are a strong candidate to be one of the teams to draft someone however. Listed above is 61 backs by the way. If you want to argue a few of them then maybe you could theoretically move Hyde up into the mid or even low 50s, and call him a well below average, low end 2nd string RB in the league right now, and one who will likely be equivalent to a high end 3rd string back in a week.
Edited by elroypedro
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36 minutes ago, Sack Exchange said:

elroy, in all earnestness, you can't call everyone who disagrees with your posts a "troll." it's unbecoming.

all @dmb3684 said was, "Hyde's pretty good when healthy, think most agree."

and based on what's being said here in this thread by other posters like @andypro77 and @rschroeder1, and me, it's clear that some agree with dmb's post.

consider: your posts are very heavy in pointing out hyde's worthlessness last year, 2018. and we all agree with you.

but your posts do not count hyde's last full-time job, just two years ago, 2017, when hyde was actually given a real shot and was healthy for all 16 games: 59 catches is pretty solid, right? that's more receptions than 2017's #3 RB kareem hunt, the #5 RB melvin gordon, and the #6 RB mark ingram. 8 rushing TDs ain't shabby as it ties hyde for 6th. and 1288 yards helped hyde to finish 2017, in his full-time role, at #11 in fantasy points overall for RBs in standard. in PPR, carlos hyde ended the year at #8 overall. https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/leaders/ppr-rb.php?year=2017

#8 PPR and #11 standard are highly respectable numbers representative of his potential.

 

59 catches on 88 targets is pathetic -- historically bad.  He was given top-3 RB volume and was a low-end RB1 with it.  No thanks. 

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Posted (edited)

Hyde's had a pretty raw deal in his career. First he was with the monstrosity of a team coached by Jim tomsula that proved for several years to be inept. Then a year with chip kelly which was a mess. Then one year with a good offensive mind in Kyle Shanahan but still on an embarrassment of a team. Signs with the browns run by the worst coach of all time. Once Freddie kitchen starts calling the shots hyde has already been traded to the worst offense in the league in Jacksonville. Not to mention battling injuries the whole way. 

Not saying hes great, or even good, but hes had some tough sleddin.

Edited by Stonej14

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Stonej14 said:

Hyde's had a pretty raw deal in his career. First he was with the monstrosity of a team coached by Jim tomsula that proved for several years to be inept. Then a year with chip kelly which was a mess. Then one year with a good offensive mind in Kyle Shanahan but still on an embarrassment of a team. Signs with the browns run by the worst coach of all time. Once Freddie kitchen starts calling the shots hyde has already been traded to the worst offense in the league in Jacksonville. Not to mention battling injuries the whole way. 

Not saying hes great, or even good, but hes had some tough sleddin.

 

Yeah he definitely hasnt had stability. He’s also very injury prone, only playing a full 16 games once, in 2017. 2016 was actually by far his best year as a player, when he had some kind of juice still in his legs at 26, but again, he was injured and missed 3 games that year. He’s now going to be 29 next season and on his 4th team in just over 1 year. It is kinda sad as he was a well-liked 49er, but at the same time he had a career about commensurate with his late 2nd round draft capital and probably more than commensurate with his talent level, and he’s made almost $10m which is great for a RB nowadays

Edited by elroypedro
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9 hours ago, elroypedro said:

it has been shown and proven beyond any doubt over and over again in this thread that Hyde is an awful, below replacement level back. 

Pedro, are you in the belief that you know more about Hyde’s potential in this offense than KC?

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1 hour ago, psygolf said:

Pedro, are you in the belief that you know more about Hyde’s potential in this offense than KC?

No, I believe I am right on the same page as them. Hyde is a 1 year insurance policy veteran to add to the mix. They will likely draft a mid to late round RB to compete with Hyde and Darrel Williams for the main back up job while Damien Williams gets the lead job this year. And then I strongly believe that they will target an early round(1-3) RB next year to be their 4 year future back on a rookie contract. 

 

This almost has had to be their plan right now with their current cap situation being somewhat tight and their massive holes across the defense. A big variable that could change this plan and allow them the option/freedom to sign a high dollar free agent RB next year is if they part from Hill and don’t have to give him his huge payday after all. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, elroypedro said:

No, I believe I am right on the same page as them. Hyde is a 1 year insurance policy veteran to add to the mix. 

No offense, but you haven’t made a single post in Hyde’s favor suggesting that he is a capable backup plan, unless I missed it.

Edited by psygolf
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KC just traded away their 1st to the Seahawks.  Not that I thought they were using that pick on a RB anyway, but a little more good news for DW.

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12 minutes ago, JoeJoe88 said:

KC just traded away their 1st to the Seahawks.  Not that I thought they were using that pick on a RB anyway, but a little more good news for DW.

Don't think the 1st rounder or news has anything to do with Damien. Chiefs let both their pass rushers go and were desperate. 

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, psygolf said:

No offense, but you haven’t made a single post in Hyde’s favor suggesting that he is a capable backup plan, unless I missed it.

you know who's a capable backup RB? damien williams, that's who. complete skillset for backing up a starting RB and serving as COP. and he's already rostered.

Edited by Sack Exchange

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20 hours ago, elroypedro said:

No, he is not. He is a below average runner and is a low end level back up RB overall, somewhere in the 45-60 RB range as a talent. There are 1-2 RBs on every team in the league that are better than him.

 

These are the RBs in the last two years with significant usage that shared the backfield with Hyde and well outplayed him:

Breida, Chubb, Duke Johnson, Fournette, Yeldon

With all due respect, you are cherry-picking statistics and situations without providing any context.  Let me be clear, I'm not here to say Carlos Hyde is amazing, or Damien Williams won't start.  However, I don't agree the evidence shows Hyde is bad.

1. Matt Breida posted better stats than Carlos Hyde in 2017. But as you note, Hyde was phased out at the end of the season in favor of Breida.  Did this take place because Breida was definitively a better player than Carlos Hyde, or because Hyde was a free agent and the 49ers knew they weren't going to resign him?  I think we need to make a bit of an adjustment in how we evaluate players that is based not just on fantasy output but also on the realities of the NFL.  Most teams are looking to go with RBs on rookie contracts.  This is not an indictment of players with more experience, it's simply economics and how the position is valued.

2. Your evaluation that Breida put up better stats than Hyde in 2017 is missing an incredibly crucial piece of evidence you conveniently failed to mention.  The 49ers traded for Jimmy Garoppolo.  2017 is not that long ago for us to remember the 49ers offense turned into a bit of a powerhouse with Jimmy G at the helm.  Marquise Goodwin was a fantasy darling, even.  If you really want to criticize Hyde for failing to produce with CJ Beathard (!!!), and praise Breida for producing with Jimmy G, that's your choice.  I will take all the context into account.  Again, it doesn't mean that Hyde is better than Breida.  But Hyde's environment was clearly impacted by his QB and his contract situation.

3. In the six games Hyde was on the Browns, Chubb had 16 carries and 1 target.  I don't think he outproduced Hyde, nor put up a representative sample.  Duke Johnson had 19 carries and nothing of note.  Duke Johnson is a great receiving back, we already know this.  He outproduced Hyde; he also lines up as a WR.  What does this prove?

4. Comparing Chubb post-Hyde takes into account Hyde, by definition, didn't get to play in.  Situations change - Mayfield might have grown as a QB over time?  The Browns offense got better as the season progressed?  Even so, it's worth noting Chubb's first six games without Hyde, in four of those games he averaged less than 4 YPC.  He exploded in the final quarter of the season.  Chubb is probably good.  What do the final four games of the Browns season have to do with Hyde?

5. Fournette averaged 3.3 YPC last year.  Hyde averaged 3.25 YPC with the Jags.  I don't find that to be definitive evidence of much of anything.

6. Yeldon had 21 carries after Fournette was finished for the season.  Is that really a sample?

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21 hours ago, elroypedro said:

No, he is not. He is a below average runner and is a low end level back up RB overall, somewhere in the 45-60 RB range as a talent. There are 1-2 RBs on every team in the league that are better than him.

 

These are the RBs in the last two years with significant usage that shared the backfield with Hyde and well outplayed him:

Breida, Chubb, Duke Johnson, Fournette, Yeldon

 

Can't edit my original post, but I'd like to post a reason #7.

7. The Chiefs intentionally signed Hyde and did not sign Yeldon.  Maybe there were reasons why they couldn't sign Yeldon, but it seems when they had a choice, at the start of free agency, they chose Hyde.  Shouldn't that mean something?

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40 minutes ago, rschroeder1 said:

 

Can't edit my original post, but I'd like to post a reason #7.

7. The Chiefs intentionally signed Hyde and did not sign Yeldon.  Maybe there were reasons why they couldn't sign Yeldon, but it seems when they had a choice, at the start of free agency, they chose Hyde.  Shouldn't that mean something?

Perhaps the reason was they didn’t want any more drama surrounding the RB position?  Coughlin blasted Yeldon for being uninterested towards the end of last season, and he’s simply not good enough of a player to be creating headaches.

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30 minutes ago, 1972Miamidolphins said:

Hyde is better than williams 

 

Yep. Better in pee wee football, better in high school, better in college, better NFL career. Williams didn’t all of a sudden get better at football than Hyde.

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40 minutes ago, 1972Miamidolphins said:

Hyde is better than williams 

Lmao no. Absolutely not. How anybody could think this is disturbing. 

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8 minutes ago, elroypedro said:

Lmao no. Absolutely not. How anybody could think this is disturbing. 

Do you ever offer anything constructive on this forum? Or are you just here to troll and mislead people??

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35 minutes ago, hoppychokes said:

Do you ever offer anything constructive on this forum? Or are you just here to troll and mislead people??

Elroy does add sound analysis and conclusions - can’t say the same for the Dolphins dude

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11 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Elroy does add sound analysis and conclusions - can’t say the same for the Dolphins dude

Yeah, but cherry picking stats and going too hard for the schtick kills it for me.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, hoppychokes said:

Do you ever offer anything constructive on this forum? Or are you just here to troll and mislead people??

This is so ironic, as what you are doing is the trolling. I am calling posters out for posting nonsense and not reading threads and rehashing and reposting 100% BS stances based on absolutely nothing. It would be nice if more than about 4 of us here posted with a mind to actually help and educate each other, because no one can do all of the research and analysis on every player on their own. I know I've only become an expert on about 7-10 players in the league that I can share in depth, thoughtful content about - again, itd be nice if others did the same rather than ****posting

Edited by elroypedro

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7 hours ago, elroypedro said:

This is so ironic, as what you are doing is the trolling. I am calling posters out for posting nonsense and not reading threads and rehashing and reposting 100% BS stances based on absolutely nothing.

Yeah but you do pull the troll card a bit easily. If you don't like what somebody is posting, you can also just shrug and walk away, which is sometimes a more friendly option, not to mention better for your blood pressure.

In this particular case, there is a still a good debate about Damien Williams, which is a more interesting subject. Let's try to focus on that, and not get too heated on who is a true believer or a skeptic.

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