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Rams/Saints - NFC Championship

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19 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

I disagree completely. If the other calls were made as they should have been, the entire complexion of the game is completely different.

 

I don't even know how to debate this because it just seems so simple to me.

 

Yea and the game could have went a number of different ways, what if this what if that, what might have happened, which leaves a lot to the imagination

 

The play in question, there are no if ands or butts about it, barring a second consecutive miracle, Saints win, thats the point of why that call is different than the other missed calls

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4 minutes ago, devaster said:

The point is no one knows how the other calls would impact the game as the game would be completely different. When a call is incorrect that directly impacts the final result that is a different matter altogether. Saints get the correct call they win that game and don't go to OT. None of the other calls have that impact. The other calls only influence how the game plays out, but no one has any idea how the game would have played out if those other calls were made.

 

The ref crew in this particular game botched calls all over the place against both teams. But the lone call at the end of the game is what ultimately matters.

 

and also.......this

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22 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

Yea and the game could have went a number of different ways, what if this what if that, what might have happened, which leaves a lot to the imagination

 

The play in question, there are no if ands or butts about it, barring a second consecutive miracle, Saints win, thats the point of why that call is different than the other missed calls

 

Yes, if that call went the other way, Saints likely win. But the problem is you are disregarding all the other plays that did go their way. In the totality of the game, the bad calls balance out. You are only remembering the last one because it's the last one. To say "welp the Saints got tons and tons of no calls in their favor but had one missed one at the end and that was the only reason they lost." Well, that's just simply incorrect.

 

One call doesnt make the others irrelevant just because of the time in the game. They all had an effect on the game. Period. There's no logical way to dispute that.

Edited by ThreadKiller
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27 minutes ago, devaster said:

The point is no one knows how the other calls would impact the game as the game would be completely different. When a call is incorrect that directly impacts the final result that is a different matter altogether. Saints get the correct call they win that game and don't go to OT. None of the other calls have that impact. The other calls only influence how the game plays out, but no one has any idea how the game would have played out if those other calls were made.

 

The ref crew in this particular game botched calls all over the place against both teams. But the lone call at the end of the game is what ultimately matters.

The argument here seems to be that because the pertinent no-call coming on the Saints' drive was the last big penalty affecting the score of the game, as it leaves up less to the imagination, it is the only one that matters. But that's just faulty logic.

 

If the refs call a facemask grab on Goff's second and goal run, then we're talking about a new set of downs from the half yard line. The Rams would almost certainly then get a touchdown, which would have had a drastic impact on the Saints' following drive. A call for pass interference or helmet-to-helmet would no longer in and of itself give the Saints the win. Thus the facemask grab no-call on Goff's run had a direct impact on the end result.

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2 minutes ago, Blackfish said:

The argument here seems to be that because the pertinent no-call coming on the Saints' drive was the last big penalty affecting the score of the game, as it leaves up less to the imagination, it is the only one that matters. But that's just faulty logic.

 

If the refs call a facemask grab on Goff's second and goal run, then we're talking about a new set of downs from the half yard line. The Rams would almost certainly then get a touchdown, which would have had a drastic impact on the Saints' following drive. A call for pass interference or helmet-to-helmet would no longer in and of itself give the Saints the win. Thus the facemask grab no-call on Goff's run had a direct impact on the end result.

 

But only the last one matters though right?..Kidding.

 

It just seems so logical to me. If the other calls weren't missed, the entire game is different. That's not playing the "what if game" any more than saying "If the last call is made, the game changes." Those are both OBVIOUS statements that literally can't be disputed at all.

 

To say Brees getting away with a delay of game, 2 facemasks and another personal foul not being called don't matter and only the last one that went against the Saints does matter because it was toward the end of the game isn't really debatable. It's just wrong.

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OK, there are always missed calls on facemarks, roughing the passer, holding, etc. all the time, but most of them are either in the middle of a slew of bodies and/or fast bang-bang plays that could've gone either way. For example, much as I hate the Patriots, in the AFC title game I can see how a ref in real time might've thought Brady got hit in the head rather than the shoulder the way that looked. 

 

But that non-call at the end of the Saints game was so out in the open and so obvious as to be almost suspicious. The defender got there a couple of seconds before the ball, basically threw a body block without turning his head, and completely impacted the receiver's ability to catch the ball. It was WAY worse than anything that happened earlier in the game, and maybe even in NFL playoff history.

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12 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

But only the last one matters though right?..Kidding.

 

It just seems so logical to me. If the other calls weren't missed, the entire game is different. That's not playing the "what if game" any more than saying "If the last call is made, the game changes." Those are both OBVIOUS statements that literally can't be disputed at all.

 

To say Brees getting away with a delay of game, 2 facemasks and another personal foul not being called don't matter and only the last one that went against the Saints does matter because it was toward the end of the game isn't really debatable. It's just wrong.

 

Nobody saying those calls dont matter, just that the final call over those was way more of an impact on the overall outcome given the time left in the game and the severity of the missed call which the likes we havent seen, all the other missed calls get missed a ton over the NFL season and both teams benefit at different times, this play in question is unique from that

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11 minutes ago, jnormy said:

OK, there are always missed calls on facemarks, roughing the passer, holding, etc. all the time, but most of them are either in the middle of a slew of bodies and/or fast bang-bang plays that could've gone either way. For example, much as I hate the Patriots, in the AFC title game I can see how a ref in real time might've thought Brady got hit in the head rather than the shoulder the way that looked. 

 

But that non-call at the end of the Saints game was so out in the open and so obvious as to be almost suspicious. The defender got there a couple of seconds before the ball, basically threw a body block without turning his head, and completely impacted the receiver's ability to catch the ball. It was WAY worse than anything that happened earlier in the game, and maybe even in NFL playoff history.

 

Each penalty missed is just that. A penalty that was missed.

 

Each one had consequences. Most of which are of the 15 yd variety aside from the noncall of what should have been delay of game on Brees.

 

To say 15 yds at this time in the game matters and at another time it doesn't is simply wrong. The point is, if all the calls are made correctly, it's moot. If Sean Payton was a leader, it would be moot (they had TWO chances to still win the game lol)

 

It's amazing to me that some of you are trying to argue that the other missed calls wouldn't affect the outcome. You all are placing too much value on the time of when it happened tbh.

 

There are two type of people in the world. Those who point to one play as the play that won or lost a game and always want to blame the refs, and those who are able to see the entire body of work and point to all of the circumstances surrounding it.

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Its cool, the call is either the worst or second worst call in history. Sure payton dwelled on it too much, sure he shouldve ran it more, but none of those things happened, what did happen was not calling that PI. 

 

Fact is they wanted it to go to OT, and giving the Rams a chance to go to the SB. They want a LA market to happen. Pats bring in money too. Thats what its truely about. 

 

Goodell and the NFL hate the saints. From Boutnygate and suspending Payton a full year. To trying to take our Who Dat phrase and make money off of it and now literally destroying Brees’s legacy and missing an opportunity at the SB. 

 

Im a saints fan, and the rest of our fanbase can be retarded at times but i’ll give them this one to be mad about. Im pissed at the PI, im pissed at Payton, and pissed at Brees.

 

i will no longer spend my money on NFL memorabilia. Ever again,i’ll continue to play Fantasy but thats it for me. Im done with the NFL, i’ll still be a saints fan forever, but im no longer investing my life into it anymore. We got our SB and probably never will again.

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8 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

Nobody saying those calls dont matter, just that the final call over those was way more of an impact on the overall outcome given the time left in the game and the severity of the missed call which the likes we havent seen, all the other missed calls get missed a ton over the NFL season and both teams benefit at different times, this play in question is unique from that

 

No. It's not.

 

All missed calls matter.

 

If this blatant missed PI happened in the 3rd quarter and ended in a punt instead of a should be TD, does it matter less because it's in the "middle of the game"? I'll answer for you. Absolutely not and if you think it does matter less, than I'm done debating this.

 

Pretending it matters more just because it's what happened most recently and it's still ringing in your memory is extremely shortsighted and just flat out wrong.

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7 minutes ago, CABLE87 said:

Its cool, the call is either the worst or second worst call in history. Sure payton dwelled on it too much, sure he shouldve ran it more, but none of those things happened, what did happen was not calling that PI. 

 

Fact is they wanted it to go to OT, and giving the Rams a chance to go to the SB. They want a LA market to happen. Pats bring in money too. Thats what its truely about. 

 

Goodell and the NFL hate the saints. From Boutnygate and suspending Payton a full year. To trying to take our Who Dat phrase and make money off of it and now literally destroying Brees’s legacy and missing an opportunity at the SB. 

 

Im a saints fan, and the rest of our fanbase can be retarded at times but i’ll give them this one to be mad about. Im pissed at the PI, im pissed at Payton, and pissed at Brees.

 

i will no longer spend my money on NFL memorabilia. Ever again,i’ll continue to play Fantasy but thats it for me. Im done with the NFL, i’ll still be a saints fan forever, but im no longer investing my life into it anymore. We got our SB and probably never will again.

 

The total lack of accountability is remarkable but it really is an accurate representation of where we are as a society.

 

Throw away a 14-0 lead. Get away with several facemask penalties that cost the Rams. Get away with a personal foul. Get away with a delay of game. Have your head coach pout and whine like a school girl for 2 minutes (of game time) instead of focusing on the two chances you still have to win. Have your QB lead off OT with an interception because the team is still pouting.

 

But sure, they ONLY lost because of the missed call at the end.

Edited by ThreadKiller
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Why didn’t the commissioner step in and use his powers, that were agreed to and collectively bargained for, to overturn that call?

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Just now, ThreadKiller said:

 

Cry me a river. Total lack of accountability.

 

Throw away a 14-0 lead. Get away with several facemask penalties that cost the Rams. Get away with a personal foul. Get away with a delay of game. Have your head coach pout and whine like a school girl for 2 minutes (of game time) instead of focusing on the two chances you still have to win. Have your QB lead off OT with an interception because the team is still pouting.

 

But sure, they ONLY lost because of the missed call at the end.

 

Give me a break.

 

I mean they didnt only lose because of that but its the fact that they put themselves in a position to win the game which is all any team should have to do (after all the missed calls both ways throughout the game etc etc game flow changing with each flag/no flag), and in the end one blatant, worst call ever, robs them in the final minutes

 

im not debating that the other calls didnt effect the game as well, but those calls contributed to the flow of the game, not the outcome of the game, thats the difference  for me 

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7 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

Each penalty missed is just that. A penalty that was missed.

 

Each one had consequences. Most of which are of the 15 yd variety aside from the noncall of what should have been delay of game on Brees.

 

To say 15 yds at this time in the game matters and at another time it doesn't is simply wrong. The point is, if all the calls are made correctly, it's moot. If Sean Payton was a leader, it would be moot (they had TWO chances to still win the game lol)

 

It's amazing to me that some of you are trying to argue that the other missed calls wouldn't affect the outcome. You all are placing too much value on the time of when it happened tbh.

 

There are two type of people in the world. Those who point to one play as the play that won or lost a game and always want to blame the refs, and those who are able to see the entire body of work and point to all of the circumstances surrounding it.

 

I didn't say the other calls didn't matter or didn't impact the game. I said this one was far FAR more egregious than those others, and pretty much any other call, ever. If Goff had run a naked bootleg out in the open and a defender grabbed onto his facemask and threw him to the ground and it wasn't called, then and only then would it be comparable to what happened on that non-PI call. It's the awfulness of the missed  call, not the consequence, that made it so bad. It just so happens it occurred at a particularly crucial part of the game.

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10 minutes ago, jnormy said:

 

I didn't say the other calls didn't matter or didn't impact the game. I said this one was far FAR more egregious than those others, and pretty much any other call, ever. If Goff had run a naked bootleg out in the open and a defender grabbed onto his facemask and threw him to the ground and it wasn't called, then and only then would it be comparable to what happened on that non-PI call. It's the awfulness of the missed  call, not the consequence, that made it so bad. It just so happens it occurred at a particularly crucial part of the game.

 

 

But the difference to me is that a missed call is a missed call. a Subjective opinion of "which was more obviously missed" shouldn't really matter as it's the consequence of the missed flag that matters.

 

It reminds me of a long hr or a hr that barely clears the fence in baseball. Both of the same result, no?

 

To me, a missed penalty is a missed penalty. Because I think the refs should have caught one more than other doesn't make it more meaningful in the outcome of the ENTIRE game. Each penalty had serious effects on the series it was a part of if you look at them at them from an individual standpoint.

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3 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

 

But the difference to me is that a missed call is a missed call. a Subjective opinion of "which was more obviously missed" shouldn't really matter as it's the consequence of the missed flag that matters.

 

It reminds me of a long hr or a hr that barely clears the fence in baseball. Both of the same result, no?

 

To me, a missed penalty is a missed penalty. Because I think the refs should have caught one more than other doesn't make it more meaningful in the outcome of the ENTIRE game. Each penalty had serious effects on the series it was a part of if you look at them at them from an individual standpoint.

 

Meh. I get what your saying. But you had two refs looking right at it, and the guy didn’t even look at the ball, he hit the guy way before the ball got their. Sorry but one was in plain freaking sight. If the call was made, saints are in the SB

 

i could see it from the freaking terrace section i was in. 

Edited by CABLE87

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4 minutes ago, CABLE87 said:

 

Meh. I get what your saying. But you had two refs looking right at it, and the guy didn’t even look at the ball, he hit the guy way before the ball got their. Sorry but one was in plain freaking sight. If the call was made, saints are in the SB

 

i could see from the freaking terrace section i was in. 

 

That doesn't matter though!

 

Is it a more blatant obvious penalty? Yes. Subjective, but still yes. Does that make it more meaningful to the outcome of the game? No! Just because it's in plain site and another might not have been doesn't make it more impactful of a missed penalty lol. That just doesn't make sense. I can't believe this is such a debate lol.

 

EDIT: Please answer my question though. If the missed PI happened in the first half, would it have still been the "most important missed call of the game"?

Edited by ThreadKiller

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5 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

 

But the difference to me is that a missed call is a missed call. a Subjective opinion of "which was more obviously missed" shouldn't really matter as it's the consequence of the missed flag that matters.

 

It reminds me of a long hr or a hr that barely clears the fence in baseball. Both of the same result, no?

 

To me, a missed penalty is a missed penalty. Because I think the refs should have caught one more than other doesn't make it more meaningful in the outcome of the ENTIRE game. Each penalty had serious effects on the series it was a part of if you look at them at them from an individual standpoint.

 

I guess I see it more as the boxer who gets hit flush on the jaw and goes down from a vicious punch vs. the boxer who falls backward and never gets up from a clear phantom punch. Same result no? But entirely different feeling for fans after the fight.

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I don't understand why people think other missed calls are relevant to the discussion. They aren't. One call impacts the end result of the game. Other calls influence the flow.

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5 hours ago, The_Truth_Returns said:

 

Stop it.  Tate has possession of Jennings, who has possession of the ball.  

OODqOwS.jpg

 

Tate has CLEAR possession of the ball here. In fact, he has more possession than Jennings at this point plus he has both feet on the ground. So no he doesn't have possession of Jennings. Then they went to the ground and the back camera still showed possession for both. At this point, Tate had made a football move. It's over. Simultaneous possession goes to the offense. Jennings ripped the ball out after the fact (which is why everyone was upset) but it no longer matters. 

h2a4zLS.png

Back view. Tate his entire hand on the ball at this point. He has more ball than Jennings. So even at this point He still doesn't have Jennings.

 

I don't have a problem admitting a call is bad or Packers got robbed. Hell, initially it seemed that way. However, this is the most overreacted to play in NFL history. Clearly was a catch. 

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15 minutes ago, devaster said:

I don't understand why people think other missed calls are relevant to the discussion. They aren't. One call impacts the end result of the game. Other calls influence the flow.

 

Same way nobody thinks that the Rams having 20 seconds to go about 27 yards to get a field goal at the end of the game if the call were made isn't relevant to the conversation.  As stated before, the Vikings went 75 yds in 25 seconds last year against the same Saints.

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43 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

I mean they didnt only lose because of that but its the fact that they put themselves in a position to win the game which is all any team should have to do (after all the missed calls both ways throughout the game etc etc game flow changing with each flag/no flag), and in the end one blatant, worst call ever, robs them in the final minutes

 

im not debating that the other calls didnt effect the game as well, but those calls contributed to the flow of the game, not the outcome of the game, thats the difference  for me 

 

Doesn't the "flow of the game" directly lead to an outcome though? It's just amazing to me to minimize numerous missed called while putting another on a pedestal even though the on field consequence (15 yds, whatever) remains the same no matter the time of game.

 

And I appreciate your level headedness in this discussion. It's certainly an interesting debate.

Edited by ThreadKiller
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1 minute ago, The_Truth_Returns said:

 

Same way nobody thinks that the Rams having 20 seconds to go about 27 yards to get a field goal at the end of the game if the call were made isn't relevant to the conversation.  As stated before, the Vikings went 75 yds in 25 seconds last year against the same Saints.

I won't deny that. The Rams would have closer to under 15s instead of 20s. But no TO and under 15s to get into FG range or win with a TD. The odds are very low on that happening. It could happen, but it rarely ever does.

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9 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

OODqOwS.jpg

 

Tate has CLEAR possession of the ball here. In fact, he has more possession than Jennings at this point plus he has both feet on the ground. So no he doesn't have possession of Jennings. Then they went to the ground and the back camera still showed possession for both. At this point, Tate had made a football move. It's over. Simultaneous possession goes to the offense. Jennings ripped the ball out after the fact (which is why everyone was upset) but it no longer matters. 

h2a4zLS.png

Back view. Tate his entire hand on the ball at this point. He has more ball than Jennings. So even at this point He still doesn't have Jennings.

 

I don't have a problem admitting a call is bad or Packers got robbed. Hell, initially it seemed that way. However, this is the most overreacted to play in NFL history. Clearly was a catch. 

 

Yeah, there's just no way.  A similar screen shot would make it appear Edelman touched the punt the other day, when in totality it was clear as day he did not.  Jennings intercepted the ball, and Tate tried to rip it away from that point.  Jennings intercepts it, is cradling it immediately in the air, and lands almost on top of Tate cuz Tate is yanking his arms and the ball afterwards.  At no time did Tate have possession.  I'm not sure Rusty Harden or Johnny Cochrane would even admit there is a slight chance they could defend this call, but I respect your efforts in trying.

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