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Rams/Saints - NFC Championship

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5 minutes ago, JSA2422 said:

 

too bad they lost tho 

 

Rams will lose the SB 

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21 minutes ago, The_Truth_Returns said:

 

Yeah, there's just no way.  A similar screen shot would make it appear Edelman touched the punt the other day, when in totality it was clear as day he did not.  Jennings intercepted the ball, and Tate tried to rip it away from that point.  Jennings intercepts it, is cradling it immediately in the air, and lands almost on top of Tate cuz Tate is yanking his arms and the ball afterwards.  At no time did Tate have possession.  I'm not sure Rusty Harden or Johnny Cochrane would even admit there is a slight chance they could defend this call, but I respect your efforts in trying.

So I post pictures of clear and obvious possession by Tate but there's no way? Jenning is cradling the ball AND Tates entire arm. It's alright. I really don't expect people to change their mind on a call that has been driven into everyone's head as the "fail mary"

Edited by Gohawks

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1 minute ago, Gohawks said:

So I post pictures of clear and obvious possession by Tate but there's no way? Jenning is cradling the ball AND Tates entire arm. It's alright. I really don't expect people to change their mind on a call that has been driven into everyone's head as the "fail mary"

 

 I could post the other 500 frames in the sequence, and every single one show Jennings has the ball, but its not necessary.  Your pictures show Tate with a hand on the ball, not a hand with the ball to his chest, or two hands with the ball.  A hand on the ball, which is being secured by Jennings with two hands against his chest.  

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Why are we talking about 2012 again?

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4 hours ago, The_Truth_Returns said:

 

 I could post the other 500 frames in the sequence, and every single one show Jennings has the ball, but its not necessary.  Your pictures show Tate with a hand on the ball, not a hand with the ball to his chest, or two hands with the ball.  A hand on the ball, which is being secured by Jennings with two hands against his chest.  

I suppose you chose to ignore my posts and just post what you want. I'll repeat one more time.


Even if Jennings hypothetically had full control at the jump both of his feet are in the air. Thus, he has not completed the catch. So it's irrelevant if you think Tate has control or not at that stage. Even if he has one hand on it Jennings has both of his feet in the air. Neither players have completed a catch. I'll give it to you directly how it is stated in the NFL rule book:

 

A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is in bounds:

a. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

b. touches the ground in bounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

c. after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so. 

 

Jennings didn't satisfy part B just like Tate didn't satisfy part A at that stage. 

 

AIpj5.jpg

jfsCm.jpg

 

In both of these photos Tate still has his hands on the ball. However, Jennings STILL hasn't completed the catch. His left foot isn't down yet meaning that he still hasn't satisfied part 2. Tate has already got his hands on the ball, established in bounds, and made a football move (going to the ground). Your definition of control is debatable. You can control the ball with one hand for example. Tate has both hands for most of the catch. However. the definition of two feet on the ground is not debatable. Just because Jennings controlled the ball first doesn't mean he caught it first. Everyone just completely ignores the second part of a catch. The answer to the play isn't as obvious as people think. 

 

 

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If I jump up in the air and catch a ball in my stomach, and while still in mid air, someone runs over to me and puts his hands on the ball to pretend he has control too before my feet hit the ground, who caught the ball? His feet are on the ground and he has his hands on the ball so I suppose he does? Common sense tells me he didn’t.

 

This is what I’m taking from your POV, GoHawks, unless I’m reading it incorrectly? Which I very may well could be bc who the hell knows what is and isn’t a catch anymore lol.

 

I vaguely remember that exact play and don’t have an educated opinion on it at this time so I am speaking more generally.

 

 

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4 hours ago, ThreadKiller said:

If I jump up in the air and catch a ball in my stomach, and while still in mid air, someone runs over to me and puts his hands on the ball to pretend he has control too before my feet hit the ground, who caught the ball? His feet are on the ground and he has his hands on the ball so I suppose he does? Common sense tells me he didn’t.

 

This is what I’m taking from your POV, GoHawks, unless I’m reading it incorrectly? Which I very may well could be bc who the hell knows what is and isn’t a catch anymore lol.

 

I vaguely remember that exact play and don’t have an educated opinion on it at this time so I am speaking more generally.

 

 

You created a straw man. Tate had both hands on the ball initially. In the first shot above he has both hands. What you state would not fulfill the first point of a catch. 

 

a.  secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground

 

Tate does do that. The only real thing to debate is if Tate had control at that point. He clearly did. Again, as shown in the first shot. Just because Jennings had more control (he still didn't catch it at that point) doesn't mean he gets the catch. That's not how simultaneous possession works. It doesn't go to the guy with more control. It goes to the offense. 

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Rewatching the game on NFL network right now.  I know the Saints got screwed.  But jesus part me is thinking Sean Payton got what he deserved for his idiotic usage of Taysum Hill at QB.  In a game that important nobody should of taken one snap at QB besides Brees.

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5 hours ago, Gohawks said:

You created a straw man. Tate had both hands on the ball initially. In the first shot above he has both hands. What you state would not fulfill the first point of a catch. 

 

a.  secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground

 

Tate does do that. The only real thing to debate is if Tate had control at that point. He clearly did. Again, as shown in the first shot. Just because Jennings had more control (he still didn't catch it at that point) doesn't mean he gets the catch. That's not how simultaneous possession works. It doesn't go to the guy with more control. It goes to the offense. 

 

Nevermind.

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13 hours ago, Gohawks said:

I suppose you chose to ignore my posts and just post what you want. I'll repeat one more time.


Even if Jennings hypothetically had full control at the jump both of his feet are in the air. Thus, he has not completed the catch. So it's irrelevant if you think Tate has control or not at that stage. Even if he has one hand on it Jennings has both of his feet in the air. Neither players have completed a catch. I'll give it to you directly how it is stated in the NFL rule book:

 

A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is in bounds:

a. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

b. touches the ground in bounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

c. after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so. 

 

Jennings didn't satisfy part B just like Tate didn't satisfy part A at that stage. 

 

AIpj5.jpg

jfsCm.jpg

 

In both of these photos Tate still has his hands on the ball. However, Jennings STILL hasn't completed the catch. His left foot isn't down yet meaning that he still hasn't satisfied part 2. Tate has already got his hands on the ball, established in bounds, and made a football move (going to the ground). Your definition of control is debatable. You can control the ball with one hand for example. Tate has both hands for most of the catch. However. the definition of two feet on the ground is not debatable. Just because Jennings controlled the ball first doesn't mean he caught it first. Everyone just completely ignores the second part of a catch. The answer to the play isn't as obvious as people think. 

 

 

 

I am certainly choosing to ignore most of what you are writing because its just craziness.  Tate caught Jennings, not the ball, none of your pictures show Tate in control of the ball.  This isn't freeze tag.  By your logic, if a WR jumps near the sideline and the DB catches him and places him out of bounds before his feet hit the ground, its an interception.  Yes, that's a straw man argument, because proving to the one person in America who thinks Golden Tate caught that pass is a completely fruitless effort.

 

Answer me this, if you agree Jennings caught the ball in mid air, which through all of your Madden telestrator markups I believe you do.  Then how the F is he yanked forwards if he is not STILL in control of the ball?  Also, the next pic in the sequence Jennings has his feet on the ground, so all your other feet in the air pics are irrelevant.  Lastly, the only way Tate has control of the ball is if he has his two hands around it a foot away from his chest, secured the entire time through this struggle.  That's impossible.  Jennings is in his chest, the ball is in Jennings.  You can point me to a hundred rule-book lines and single frame snaps, there is no set of circumstances that say this is a catch.  The shady NFL even admitted they butched it.

 

Image result for jennings packers with control of ball

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28 minutes ago, jnormy said:

Well well, looks like even the NFL itself (and its Competition Committee) is acknowledging that the horrific PI non-call in the Saints-Rams game mattered more than the previous ones in that game:

 

NFL will consider making pass interference calls reviewable, after Rams-Saints gaffe

 

 

 

 

 

It was a non-call though, so I'm not sure that even helps. Refs just need to do a better job in the future and not keep their flags in their pockets in an attempt to not influence the game. Because that is exactly what those refs did. At least two of them were right there to see the play. They deserve to be fired honestly.

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2 hours ago, The_Truth_Returns said:

 

I am certainly choosing to ignore most of what you are writing because its just craziness.  Tate caught Jennings, not the ball, none of your pictures show Tate in control of the ball.  This isn't freeze tag.  By your logic, if a WR jumps near the sideline and the DB catches him and places him out of bounds before his feet hit the ground, its an interception.  Yes, that's a straw man argument, because proving to the one person in America who thinks Golden Tate caught that pass is a completely fruitless effort.

 

Answer me this, if you agree Jennings caught the ball in mid air, which through all of your Madden telestrator markups I believe you do.  Then how the F is he yanked forwards if he is not STILL in control of the ball?  Also, the next pic in the sequence Jennings has his feet on the ground, so all your other feet in the air pics are irrelevant.  Lastly, the only way Tate has control of the ball is if he has his two hands around it a foot away from his chest, secured the entire time through this struggle.  That's impossible.  Jennings is in his chest, the ball is in Jennings.  You can point me to a hundred rule-book lines and single frame snaps, there is no set of circumstances that say this is a catch.  The shady NFL even admitted they butched it.

 

Image result for jennings packers with control of ball

Ignoring instead of forming a rebuttal and saying the same thing, again and again, isn't the way to go. You do it once more.


It doesn't matter what that picture shows as I have said multiple times. Tate already completes the process of the catch at that point so it is irrelevant. It is also irrelevant that Jennings caught the ball in mid-air because he still didn't complete the process of the catch. Also, your strawman results in an incomplete pass. Much like the previous strawman,  the guy doesn't fulfill step "a" of a catch. Tate does fulfill it. That's the only argument. What constitutes possession? Again, Jennings having more of the ball isn't the answer. The last picture you posted is why the thought is that it isn't a catch whatsoever. However, by the rule book, the play is already over. Tate had BOTH hands on the ball. Again, there is no deniability that Jennings had more possession. However, that is not the rule.

 

Also, the NFL never admitted it was wrong. A few former refs said they would have ruled it an interception but the NFL stood by the call. The PI is what they admitted to.

 

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10 minutes ago, devaster said:

It was a non-call though, so I'm not sure that even helps. Refs just need to do a better job in the future and not keep their flags in their pockets in an attempt to not influence the game. Because that is exactly what those refs did. At least two of them were right there to see the play. They deserve to be fired honestly.

I think it would be reviewed even if there was no PI. Sort of like a turnover in the final two minutes. Even if no turnover is called on the field the booth will still do a review if it seems like there could have been one. 

 

Also, you've mentioned the influence thing multiple times but it makes no sense. Not throwing the flag influences the game as well. Every action the refs take influences the game. 

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I don’t like the Rams or the Saints but I Stole this from a comment I saw lots of valid points:

 

Saints: PLEASE stop complaining, every NFL game has NUMEROUS plays......Digest this 15 Reasons the Rams are in the Super Bowl: 1) Rams Out-Played you on both sides of the ball on your home field with all your "Noise" 2) Jared Goff Out-Played Drew Brees, his one interception went through the hands of Todd Gurley, & the other drop could have easily been a TD throw. Goff made numerous CLUTCH throws in the 3rd quarter, 4th quarter & Overtime...Brees was picked off in OT & had TWO other almost sure interceptions dropped. 3. Rams down 13-0 faked a punt & our punter threw 12 yards for a first down, Fabulous execution & gutty brilliance from our coach McVay. 4. Your "Star" WR Michael Thomas had 36 yards receiving 5. Your running game produced ONLY 48 yards rushing & LESS THAN 300 total yards. 6. You were out-scored 26-10 over the final 3 Quarters & Overtime. 7. You had to settle for FG's TWICE your first two times in Red Zone. 8. McVay Out-Coached Peyton 9. You had 4 possessions in the 4th quarter & overtime, yet managed only 3 points. 10. You benefitted from SEVERAL non-calls throughout the game, especially after Goff was face-masked at the 2-yard line which would have given the Rams a 1st and goal, yet we were forced to settle for a FG & tie the game instead of taking the lead. 11. Jared Goff escaped you several times & made pinpoint throws while on the run. 12. You were up 13-0 at home with all the noise & your "who dat" attitudes & you FAILED to put us away. 13. You managed the clock horribly on your final drive in 4th quarter which was aided by a Brees "Chuck" that should of and could have been picked off. 14. You took the lead with a minute to go 23-20, at home with your "Great defense" and all that "Noise" but you couldn't stop the Rams from driving the field to tie & then beat your a** in Overtime after YOU got the coin flip & first possession and we forced you into the turnover. Bottom Line: We EXECUTED more plays than you. 15. Greg the Leg was CLUTCH, a 48 yard FG in final seconds and a 57 Yard FG to win it in Overtime & sent his team to Super Bowl 53.

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7 minutes ago, cashvillesent said:

I don’t like the Rams or the Saints but I Stole this from a comment I saw lots of valid points:

 

 

 

 

But none of those things were in the final 2 minutes so they don't matter that much to the outcome of the game!

 

Kidding of course. Thanks for posting that because I could not agree more.

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8 minutes ago, cashvillesent said:

I don’t like the Rams or the Saints but I Stole this from a comment I saw lots of valid points:

 

 

 

That's all true. The Rams were actually the better team the majority of the game. Horrible execution and gameplan by Payton in all of reality. However, asking them to stop complaining is hilarious. They had the game won. The refs screwed them out of the win.

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Had the call been made, the Saints apparently had at least a 98% chance of winning.   That’s really really hard to mess up.

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Packers had the ball, in not sure how anyone can say Tate caught that, especially after the replay.

 

Those were the replacement refs, right?

 

eh, at least the NFL is consistent...

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1 hour ago, Gohawks said:

I think it would be reviewed even if there was no PI. Sort of like a turnover in the final two minutes. Even if no turnover is called on the field the booth will still do a review if it seems like there could have been one. 

 

Also, you've mentioned the influence thing multiple times but it makes no sense. Not throwing the flag influences the game as well. Every action the refs take influences the game. 

To the 2nd point you hear it mentioned by broadcasters all the time. How they don't want the refs calling ticky-tack penalties to influence the end of the game. But at the same time not calling a penalty is also influencing the outcome.

 

Like MLB umpires that call a strikezone, they need to be consistent. And they can't miss blatant penalties.

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1 hour ago, Gohawks said:

Ignoring instead of forming a rebuttal and saying the same thing, again and again, isn't the way to go. You do it once more.


It doesn't matter what that picture shows as I have said multiple times. Tate already completes the process of the catch at that point so it is irrelevant. It is also irrelevant that Jennings caught the ball in mid-air because he still didn't complete the process of the catch. Also, your strawman results in an incomplete pass. Much like the previous strawman,  the guy doesn't fulfill step "a" of a catch. Tate does fulfill it. That's the only argument. What constitutes possession? Again, Jennings having more of the ball isn't the answer. The last picture you posted is why the thought is that it isn't a catch whatsoever. However, by the rule book, the play is already over. Tate had BOTH hands on the ball. Again, there is no deniability that Jennings had more possession. However, that is not the rule.

 

Also, the NFL never admitted it was wrong. A few former refs said they would have ruled it an interception but the NFL stood by the call. The PI is what they admitted to.

 

 

Again, this isn't freeze tag.  Putting your hands on the ball being possessed by another player does not result in possession.  Nothing you've shown proves the asanine theory that Tate caught the ball, you're banking your entire argument on Tate having two feet on the ground and touching the ball being securely cradled by Jennings.  That is not control!  It's about as much control as if Tate yelled Jinx.

Edited by The_Truth_Returns
Horrible grammar

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29 minutes ago, The_Truth_Returns said:

 

Again, this isn't freeze tag.  Putting your hands on the ball being possessed by another player does not result in possession.  Nothing you've shown proves the asanine theory that Tate caught the ball, you're banking your entire argument on Tate having two feet on the ground and touching the ball being securely cradled by Jennings.  That is not control!  It's about as much control as if Tate yelled Jinx.

OODqOwS.jpg

 

Again, that left hand is clearly wrapped around the ball. Clearly. "Putting your hand on the ball" is a huge understatement.

 

Anyways, NFL catch rules suck. They're a bit better now but they still suck. So to each their own.

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2 hours ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

But none of those things were in the final 2 minutes so they don't matter that much to the outcome of the game!

 

Kidding of course. Thanks for posting that because I could not agree more.

 

And none of those things led to a discussion about a possible rules change by THE NFL ITSELF. 

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NFL is a reactionary league. They wait until something breaks or goes horribly wrong before looking into making adjustments/changes. It doesn't really make sense why, with all of the replay capabilities, that the refs can still miss blatant calls and impact the final result of a game. These sort of changes could have impacted a number of games this season. Like was Clay Matthews' roughing the passer really a valid call? If not, that would have been a game-sealing interception and ended the game with a Packers win instead of what ended up being a tie in OT between the Packers and Vikings.

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19 minutes ago, jnormy said:

 

And none of those things led to a discussion about a possible rules change by THE NFL ITSELF. 

 

Ok?

 

The NFL agrees with everyone that the missed call was terrible and officiating needs to be addressed. It's of course a no-brainer to have calls (or non calls) like that be reviewable.

 

Sooo, what's your point here? No one disagrees with it being a bad call and needing to be fixed.

 

LOL.

Edited by ThreadKiller

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