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brockpapersizer

Universal DH thread

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https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/1711780

 

This has a ginormous fantasy implication. Seems like it may have an impact and be put in place for 2019. I'm very for this, but let's discuss some fantasy implications.

 

That Renfro margot reyes Cordero situation in San Diego could result in a huge boost for all players.

 

That crowded infield in Colorado? Cha ching.

 

The mets who have too many infielders? Cha ching 

 

 

Lots of players could suddenly have a considerable value bump. The NL pitchers get a slight downgrade as well. No longer would you lean the Nl pitcher just because.  

 

Big boost for pitchers in the AL central division which is a weak division for hitting and now they can be fairly compares to Nl guys.

 

 

I know this thread will eventually lead to people talking about the fun pitchers wanting to pitch, but I thought I'd start it with discussing the very interesting fantasy implications.

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So it says:

 

Quote

Among the proposed changes, the union requested a universal designated hitter be implemented ahead of the 2019 season, sources told Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic. If approved, pitchers would no longer take at-bats in National League or Interleague games.

 

The request was partly a response to one from the league to impose a three-batter minimum for pitchers, which would effectively eliminate left-handed specialists. That potential change is part of a continued effort to improve pace of play.

 

I'm for both big time and the fact that this could go into effect before THIS season would be great.  I hate hate hate NL pitchers having it easy with no DH to throw to.  And I love rallies not being aborted by pitchers coming to the plate.  I doubt they could push this through for this season though since baseball is slow as molasses to do anything.

 

(I also still curse the Phillies' owner Carpenter for going out fishing the day of the DH vote for the NL all those years ago.  He was for it but thought it would pass easily without him attending and he screwed up the NL for what?  Half a century or something?  Man if he had only done his duty as an owner the NL could have been so much more fun to watch all those years).

 

Also I hate changing pitchers out of the bullpen every other batter.  There are only so many sandwiches I make or bathroom breaks I can take waiting out these stoppages.  Make the madness stop!

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If i never see another .100/.200/.200 line I'll do backflips.  Bring it on.  

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Not sure they can get this going in 2019.  Universal DH would be the biggest rule change in years.  Doesn’t seem like something they can just kick in right before spring training 

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I am ambivalent about it's full time application...but mostly I am just for it because it creates more jobs for the players. I feel like this will have to be part of the next CBA, and the owners will act like it's some big concession they are giving to the players/union...but it will probably make baseball more watchable and even allow some older players to extend their careers.

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Three batter limit

 

20 second pitch count

 

universal DH

 

three things that will never happen

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No no no no no and no

 

as a phillies fan I love the national league brand...No one wants those Yankees/Red Sox four and half hour slogs. 

 

Extra innings where teams start running out of players sets up great moments. 

Edited by XxxOilOverloadxxX
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You are forcing a RP to hit with a 3 batter rule if they came in put out a fire.  So there is a ton of logic behind making sure both rules are together other than just job creation for MLBPA.

Edited by Slatykamora
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I'm very excited to not have to ever see a pitcher hit again (unless he's good and actually wants to, in that case he can DH if him and his manager agree). Tired of seeing the end of rallies because a pitcher can't him. Or worst, a pitcher pitching a great game and needs to be taken out because his team really needs the run. 

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The DH rule exists throughout all of baseball at every level of play, the only place it does not exist is the National League - it is part of the game, as a HS coach for many years I used it quite a bit.  

 

From a fantasy standpoint I think that it would have some interesting impacts:

* In addition to what Brock mentioned regarding some of the logjams, it could also change some of the dynamics regarding things like National League leadoff hitters and their ridiculously low RBI counts because they hit behind the P and the 8 hitter (who most NL teams wont invest a great hitter at 8 because more times that not they will be pitched around)  also might see a little more running from lower spots in a National League order.  

 

* There is already a rule requiring a pitcher of record to face and complete at-bat for 1 batter.   So changing that from 1-3 is not some drastic change, obviously it would be drastic for the L/R matchup one batter specialist but as some overall rule of the game change going from 1 to 3 batters is not like dictating no shift or starting with a 1-1 count or something way out of the scope of the game.  I think it will help, obviously pitching changes are one of the biggest factors in the length of the game, though I would argue a lot of it is pitchers pitching for strikeouts and batters looking for walks and or approach more boom bust which results in longer at bats and less "action" that is causing some of the delays and there is really no way to legislate approach.  

 

I dont think this change will happen this year, think of it in your fantasy game, as commissioners one of the rule of thumbs is that big changes cant favor or hurt one franchise or another.  All of a sudden teams who utilize 1 batter specialists or have a plethora of bats they now can use as DH values are altered.  I think they will have to give front offices and franchises one year to implement both changes. 

 

 

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As much as I'd love to see this implemented this year, I don't think it's enough time. Maybe they'll get it approved soon/this year, but go into effect 2020.

 

Good move for baseball, hope it happens.

Edited by Members_Only_76
fat finger
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1 hour ago, Slatykamora said:

You are forcing a RP to hit with a 3 batter rule if they came in put out a fire.  So there is a ton of logic behind making sure both rules are together other than just job creation for MLBPA.

I believe it doesn't apply if you end an inning. 

 

10 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

I think the biggest difference that isn't obvious (NL pitchers getting knocked a bit and first guy off the bench getting a boost) is going to be the philosophy of the bullpen use in the NL and a possible expansion of the "opener". If your league has holds as part of a category I think the NL relief pitcher pool gets a little deeper. If you have quality starts and your "starting pitcher" has an opener than that is a massive shift. 

 

I see almost no chance that the DH comes to the NL this year. That is too radical of a shift to give teams without a years notice.

I would love to see the 3 batter minimum for relief pitchers and I think we will see more intentional walks as a result, but those are a point of a finger so games will be faster. Important for OBP leagues though if you have a 3, 4, or 5 hitter that is book ended by the opposite hitters in their lineups. 

I would support a universal DH. At this point we are just holding on to tradition for tradition sake. Pitchers hitting are 99% awful for viewers. The double switch and getting to see the roster depth on display in crunch time isn't really awesome for viewers. Just let the best players play and see how your teams stacks up on a nightly basis is my opinion. And I say that as a Phillies fan that has always liked the nuances of the pitcher hitting, but the viewers these days don't seem to appreciate or have the attention span for the nuances of the game as much as the 3 run HR so time to make the switch. 

I do not want to see the mound lowered. Making a game even more offensive minded isn't the solution IMO. The shift impacts the offensive output and philosophy more than anything else. I would rather see shift rules implemented before a mound height change. 

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DH to NL is going to happen more likely than not, but wont start until 2020.  Union wants it in place so NL teams can give longer contracts to players like Harper, Machado, etc, so they can move them to DH when defensive skills decline.  Watching MLB network today, it seems almost inevitable it happens.  I hope it does.  Just dont expect it to happen in 2019 since teams have already molded their rosters.  2020 I would say 75% chance it gets put in place

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A coworker offered an alternative to "must face 3 batters" -- manager declares when he brings in the LOOGY or whatever how many batters they'll face *and* must have the next pitcher warmed up and in the dugout.  Pitching change from LOOGY to ROOGY (or whatever) then happens immediately without an extra TV break.  MLB and the regional sports networks of course wouldn't want that, but if they're serious about pace of play instead of just trying to make it look like they are, this is a much better setup, and doesn't suffer from the obvious flaw of "manager signals from the dugout that their LOOGY suddenly feels a twinge in his arm and needs to come out of the game."

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1 minute ago, tonycpsu said:

 the obvious flaw of "manager signals from the dugout that their LOOGY suddenly feels a twinge in his arm and needs to come out of the game."

 

This is a GREAT point.  With the 3 batter minimum, you will see managers manipulate the system with an "injury" scare.  Kind of how they replay almost every play by standing on the edge of the dugout having the pitcher or hitter stall.  Or like an NFL player writhing around in pain to create an extra time out.  

 

I wonder if MLB is thinking about this as a sidebar to the 3 batter minimum.  What if there really is an injury and the pitcher didnt face the 3 minimum?  Interesting

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19 minutes ago, TheTruth024 said:

 

This is a GREAT point.  With the 3 batter minimum, you will see managers manipulate the system with an "injury" scare.  Kind of how they replay almost every play by standing on the edge of the dugout having the pitcher or hitter stall.  Or like an NFL player writhing around in pain to create an extra time out.  

 

I wonder if MLB is thinking about this as a sidebar to the 3 batter minimum.  What if there really is an injury and the pitcher didnt face the 3 minimum?  Interesting

 

Just give a team X minutes of dead time per game. Dead time would be time for pitching changes, batters stepping out of the box, etc. after an inning starts and before an innings ends. 

 

Say you get 6 minutes of dead time per game, and each pitching change you make takes 2 minutes from the time the manager walks out to the time the RP is ready to toss his first pitch. After 3 changes, no more substitutions during an inning or no more mound visits. 

Pitching killing time on the rubber, buying time for a bullpen guy to warm up? Taking time off that clock. 

Batter keeps stepping out to adjust his gloves? Better speed it up, skippy. We need that next pitching change. 

Obviously would have to polish the idea, but it would limit what we seem to be trying to prevent (dead time) while also not explicitly restricting how you manage the game. 

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Dipoto is rubbing his palms together maniacally at the idea that the entire NL will start bidding to trade for Encarnacion.

 

 

And let's not forget about Jose Martinez who might actually have a job now.

Edited by jbj

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3 minutes ago, jbj said:

Dipoto is rubbing his palms together maniacally at the idea that the entire NL will start bidding to trade for Encarnacion.

 

 

And let's not forget about Jose Martinez who might actually have a job now.

You beat me to it... how much does JM fly up in adp if this happens?  And what a huge real life advg for Stl if it does happen

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As the teams stand right now, who do you think would get the biggest value boost on each team with the DH implemented?

 

Atlanta- perhaps a combination of Donaldson/Riley if it could mean calling up the prospect and Donaldson seeing time at DH for his health

Washington- Eaton/Taylor for perhaps the same reason if Eaton can stay healthy and get some DH at bats. Maybe Kieboom if he pushes his way into the majors and can get some playing time in spite of the crowded IF.

Philadelphia- Quinn and/or Kingery seeing as either of them would be big defensive upgrades and could see more playing time

Mets- Mcneil and/or Alonso

Miami- yeah, nothing to see here.

 

Milwaukee- maybe Thames gets the at bats?
Chicago- could mean a clearer path to Schwarbs or Happ figuring out how to hit well consistently. or Bote getting some time

St Louis- Jose Martinez no question

Pittsburgh- unsure

Cincinnati- Winker, Kemp, Senzel

 

LA- Pederson/Verdugo

Colorado- Hampson/McMahon I would think. maybe Dahl if it helps him stay healthy

Arizona- unsure

San Francisco- unsure

San Diego- Franmil/Renfroe/Cordero/Margot



 

Edited by jbj

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as a baseball fan I like the difference in leagues and strategy that comes into play

fantasy wise rather have no dh in nl because probably 75-85% of my starters each year are NL.

with pitchers going shorter and shorter and not going deep into game maybe it wont make that much of a difference with the DH

I do like limiting the sp risk of inj wearing one off the hands or busting it out of the box (rare) and pulling something

 

also don't care if a manager wants to use everyone in his pen to get 3 outs. not hard to change it to something else on tv

 

forget to mention I also like the idea of rewarding a sp that can swing it or handle the bat well. they deserve an advantage over sp that have no chance to move a runner or put the ball in play.

Edited by colepenhagen
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3 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

A coworker offered an alternative to "must face 3 batters" -- manager declares when he brings in the LOOGY or whatever how many batters they'll face *and* must have the next pitcher warmed up and in the dugout.  Pitching change from LOOGY to ROOGY (or whatever) then happens immediately without an extra TV break.  MLB and the regional sports networks of course wouldn't want that, but if they're serious about pace of play instead of just trying to make it look like they are, this is a much better setup, and doesn't suffer from the obvious flaw of "manager signals from the dugout that their LOOGY suddenly feels a twinge in his arm and needs to come out of the game."

You still need to give the LOOGY or ROOGY that is in the dugout their allotment of warm up pitches on the mound. So this would only eliminate the walk/trot from the outfield to the mound which should be about 30-90 seconds net difference as the walk/trot from the dugout. There is zero chance they eliminate the warmup pitches on the game mound. If they did that every visitors bullpen would be jacked up for an advantage. I wouldn't mind them explaining the stats and pitcher while he is warming up though. Just a big ask to not make money from commercials in that time frame. 

 

The work around for the fake injury is to have that pitcher unavailable for 5 days if they fail to meet the minimum 3 batters due to injury. It would be an empty roster spot or they put them on the DL to open the roster spot. Either way, that would probably take care of the issue pretty quick. There are lots of similarities in other sports as well.

 

The speed of the game stuff is just never going to get baseball in a place where the game will be incredibly viewer friendly. There is a cap to how much it can improve. The nature of baseball is that there are TV breaks all the time. You have to re-capture the audience after every batch of commercials and every half inning. This isn't like hockey where you can literally set a timer during intermission and not miss a beat. Anything they do for speed of play is still going to require a viewer to dedicate their night to watching a game and that commitment needs to be made 4-6 times a week for an evening and 1-2 times a week for an afternoon. It is just a massive ask. 162 games is an insanely long season. 

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1 hour ago, colepenhagen said:

 

as a baseball fan I like the difference in leagues and strategy that comes into play

fantasy wise rather have no dh in nl because probably 75-85% of my starters each year are NL.

with pitchers going shorter and shorter and not going deep into game maybe it wont make that much of a difference with the DH

I do like limiting the sp risk of inj wearing one off the hands or busting it out of the box (rare) and pulling something

 

also don't care if a manager wants to use everyone in his pen to get 3 outs. not hard to change it to something else on tv

 

forget to mention I also like the idea of rewarding a sp that can swing it or handle the bat well. they deserve an advantage over sp that have no chance to move a runner or put the ball in play.

I believe that is what they are trying to avoid because it isn't hard to change the channel, but it is really hard to keep returning to your channel especially when the commercial breaks increase in frequency. 

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If they’re going to do it, please do it while Jose Martinez is still a Cardinal.

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2 hours ago, thezing1 said:

I believe that is what they are trying to avoid because it isn't hard to change the channel, but it is really hard to keep returning to your channel especially when the commercial breaks increase in frequency. 

does mlb really think either the nl dh or less rp is going to make baseball more popular with new fans?

a lot of other things mlb can do to increase viewership. the most obvious is the robot umpire for balls and strikes. 

we just saw the non pi called in the saints game. get the calls on the field consistent and correct.

 

anyways whatever I have seen maybe 5 regular season doyers the last couple years because the doyers have been blacked out for years. rather watch trout  or players I like or that are on my fantasy team. and you can stream every sporting event for free on the internet on multiple sites. rather watch mlb tonight  than a full regular season baseball game and im sure im not the only one

 

 

Edited by colepenhagen

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13 minutes ago, colepenhagen said:

does mlb really think either the nl dh or less rp is going to make baseball more popular with new fans?

a lot of other things mlb can do to increase viewership. the most obvious is the robot umpire for balls and strikes. 

we just saw the non pi called in the saints game. get the calls on the field consistent and correct.

 

anyways whatever I have seen maybe 5 regular season doyers the last couple years because the doyers have been blacked out for years. rather watch trout  or players I like or that are on my fantasy team. and you can stream every sporting event for free on the internet on multiple sites. rather watch mlb tonight  than a full regular season baseball game and im sure im not the only one

 

 

The second part of this post is why baseball is losing its viewers and fan base, IMO. They think it is the speed of game because they don't want to see that the nature of the game is very difficult for the population with growing ADHD to follow. When you can't capture the attention for 9 innings how are you supposed to ask people to follow 162 games? 2 hours and 57 minutes vs. 3 hours and 4 minutes....is there really a difference?

 

There is some talk about making the games more fantasy friendly and more stat/saber friendly. Exit velocities, launch angles, etc. At some point they are going to have to make this a Vegas sportsbook and just have mini screens next to the jumbotrons broadcasting other big DFS games, highlights, HR's and vegas/betting lines. Everyone at stadiums is already on their phones most of the game. Just embrace that you are an outdoor drinking venue with live entertainment that you can socially gather at and pay attention or not and still have fun. It has taken me a long time to want this change in baseball, but over the past 5+ years the live baseball experience is just really annoying if you aren't vibing with people sitting near you and just get pissed that they are on their phone the entire game and cheering, standing and blocking your view at the wrong times when they aren't even paying attention to the game. Just make it an arcade with gambling and the "red zone" equivalent and people will drink outside and pay for a ticket. And the people that love baseball can still focus on the game being played.  

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