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Unwritten Rules, Joe West, Tim Anderson, etc. Thread

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, My Dinner With Andre said:

The irony is that baseball of the major competitive sports is the one with the least amount of contact (football, basketball, hockey, even soccer). It should be the easiest to play in a gentlemanly manner.

 

-Don't intentionally throw at guys.

-Don't dive feet first into vulnerable players' ankles

-Don't spear the catcher

 

I think, if I were a baseball player, I could manage these rules and still get by.

It’s funny I read your gentleman line and for some reason thought of golf.  Totally off topic but how cool would it be if golfers just flipped their clubs after big time drives or pinpoint approach shots lol.

Edited by ToO_BaD
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, ToO_BaD said:

I’m not trying to give my .02 on this particular instance, or really this topic in general, but is there any evidence to back up a correlation between intentional HBP and viewership or fan base declining?  I’m honestly just curious as I don’t follow that sort of stuff too closely.

 

I odn't know how you'd make that correlation. I know I'm 23, and have 20 friends who don't like baseball, and all of them think the dumbest thing about baseball is some of the "unwritten rules". SO I think that's a barrier to entry, eprsonally. Do I have statistically valid data? Absolutely not. And would appreciate anyone who does. But I don't think it's good for the future viewpoitn of the sport to have this concept of "Policing oneself." We call that anarchy in modern terms, and people don't usually support anarchy. 

Edited by taobball

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The racial component to this makes MLB look awful, particularly since -- as has already been pointed out -- the MLB is fine having two racially/culturally insensitive team names still floating around and also allows and promotes the #chop in ATL. The black guy, who did the least bad thing here, is the one getting the worst punishment. Keller gets his start pushed back a game. Big deal. None of the instigators on the KC bench like Sveum caught any consequences. It looks really ******** bad from the outside.

 

Irony is that TA is exactly the sort of player that MLB would want to succeed and promote. Extremely likable, plays with passion, fun to watch, does a ton of community-based charity work, etc.  

 

And of course, throwing a projectile at another human at 90+ mph needs to end. You either let the batter respond by going at the pitcher with his bat (which is lunacy) or you treat it like the unnecessary act of violence that it is and severely punish guys like Keller. 

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22 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

He can be upset all he wants. Excusing throwing a 90 MPH fastball at a guy is another thing altogether, yet something you and others defend.

Which is why I asked the question you didn’t answer. If a guy threw his bat at Fernando Rodney’s hip and hit him in the leg, would your response be:

“Hey, shoot arrows all you want, but be ready for the consequences. I get why the batter is mad. Rodney is showing him up. This is just players policing themselves.” 

So don’t twist things around and come back to your overarching point. Would that be acceptable or not?

 

First of all, slow down there. You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth. I haven’t “defended” it other than my first post saying I’d do it (my intended context as I wrote that was me being in my 20s) and that I understand Keller’s anger. 

And you know why batter’s don’t throw the bat? Because they know the pitcher will catch it and might beat the crap out of them with it. So sure...let the batter throw the bat at a pitcher. You know what I’m surprised we haven’t seen...a batter pick up the ball after being hit on purpose and throw it back at the pitcher. 

The moral outrage in this thread makes me chuckle. We have a bunch of choir boys in here...wasn’t aware of that. I was no choir boy for sure, and more than once I’ve let my emotions get the better of me. I guess I’m the only one who’s been in a fight...or hit another guy with an object...or said words I regretted later...or did things I regretted later. I guess everyone who has been disrespected itt has never sought revenge in one way or another against the one who did it. Most of the guys crying out for maturity and sound thinking...probably have. 

There have been times I’ve done something dumb out of an emotional reaction. At 43, I grew out of that many years ago. I have a family to think about. But in my 20s, being young and dumb, yeah I might have thrown at Anderson. So sue me. I’ve grown up since then, but I still remember what it was like to be that young, still making stupid decisions. But I’m glad to know that I’m one of the few on the board who was that way. 

What baffles me is the ones who condone Anderson’s bat flip. That is a known no-no in baseball and softball circles. It is seen as disrespectful and taunting. I wonder how many of the guys who think that it’s okay actually played the game at all. We want Keller to respect the game (me included), but we’re okay with Anderson disrespecting the game, Keller, and the Royals. Be pumped...be excited as you round the bases...jump around in the dugout and celebrate with your team. But don’t show up the opponent. And if you do, expect some form of retaliation, whether it’s right or wrong. I’ll say it again, the reason Anderson didn’t charge, imho, was because he knew he did wrong. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Flyman75 said:

 

First of all, slow down there. You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth. I haven’t “defended” it other than my first post saying I’d do it (my intended context as I wrote that was me being in my 20s) and that I understand Keller’s anger. 

And you know why batter’s don’t throw the bat? Because they know the pitcher will catch it and might beat the crap out of them with it. So sure...let the batter throw the bat at a pitcher. You know what I’m surprised we haven’t seen...a batter pick up the ball after being hit on purpose and throw it back at the pitcher. 

The moral outrage in this thread makes me chuckle. We have a bunch of choir boys in here...wasn’t aware of that. I was no choir boy for sure, and more than once I’ve let my emotions get the better of me. I guess I’m the only one who’s been in a fight...or hit another guy with an object...or said words I regretted later...or did things I regretted later. I guess everyone who has been disrespected itt has never sought revenge in one way or another against the one who did it. Most of the guys crying out for maturity and sound thinking...probably have. 

There have been times I’ve done something dumb out of an emotional reaction. At 43, I grew out of that many years ago. I have a family to think about. But in my 20s, being young and dumb, yeah I might have thrown at Anderson. So sue me. I’ve grown up since then, but I still remember what it was like to be that young, still making stupid decisions. But I’m glad to know that I’m one of the few on the board who was that way. 

What baffles me is the ones who condone Anderson’s bat flip. That is a known no-no in baseball and softball circles. It is seen as disrespectful and taunting. I wonder how many of the guys who think that it’s okay actually played the game at all. We want Keller to respect the game (me included), but we’re okay with Anderson disrespecting the game, Keller, and the Royals. Be pumped...be excited as you round the bases...jump around in the dugout and celebrate with your team. But don’t show up the opponent. And if you do, expect some form of retaliation, whether it’s right or wrong. I’ll say it again, the reason Anderson didn’t charge, imho, was because he knew he did wrong. 

 

 

It's almost impressive how off-base you are on ... everything. The game has been evolving since its inception. Get with the times or find a new hobby. Bat flips are great. Kids share them on twitter. That's awesome for the game moving forward. It's not disrespectful. A baseball game shouldn't be a ******** funeral. 

 

If not being a no-fun "but muh tradition" grandstander makes me a choir boy, point me to the nearest church. 

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I don't love the bat flipping, taunting, etc. It's not my style and my dad raised me to behave like Barry Sanders on the field of play. But, do I believe everyone should behave that way and if they don't they are a bad person (or deserve retaliation)? No way, it's just not my style/preference.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, sleepysock said:

 

It's almost impressive how off-base you are on ... everything. The game has been evolving since its inception. Get with the times or find a new hobby. Bat flips are great. Kids share them on twitter. That's awesome for the game moving forward. It's not disrespectful. A baseball game shouldn't be a ******** funeral. 

 

If not being a no-fun "but muh tradition" grandstander makes me a choir boy, point me to the nearest church. 

 

Get with the times or find a new hobby? Hahaha!! Okay. We are raising a very disrespectful generation, and it’s showing itself even in baseball. I refuse to apologize for setting the bar for respectfulness high. You think I’m off on everything. Super. I think you’re way off. 

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1 minute ago, Flyman75 said:

 

Get with the times or find a new hobby? Hahaha!! Okay. We are raising a very disrespectful generation, and it’s showing itself even in baseball. I refuse to apologize for setting the bar for respectfulness high. You think I’m off on everything. Super. I think you’re way off. 

 

Disrespectful generation? Ha. GET OFF MY LAWN, AMIRITE?

 

I want the game to be more fun and accessible and filled with colorful personalities, something it is sorely lacking. You want to be an old-man gate-keeper. If you think you're in the right, I'm going to be frank with you -- the times, they are a changin, and they have passed you by. 

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I don't know boys, maybe my age is showing here a bit. 

I think it's seems fair to say a HBP as retaliation for a HR shouldn't be a part of the sport. We all seem generally in agreement there. As I mentioned earlier, with the money and the lawyers and unions that follow I think it's easier said than done to actually issue a policy on it, but it should be eliminated if possible. 

That said, I'm firmly in the camp that pitchers are entitled to the inside part of the zone just as much as hitters are. When hitters are crowding there's essentially no difference between coming in and throwing at because ya have to come in enough to move em and sometimes they don't move.  The fear of the HBP keeps guys from digging in and hammering everything away.  To me, if we are calling it an intentional HBP when guys get backed up, I strongly disagree.  That's just part of the game if they get clipped occasionally.  Pitcher missed a little too far in and guy got hurt, it's unfortunate, but armor up, take a half step back, and stay alert because I'm not blaming the pitcher for that unless it's first pitch post homer straight to the ribs fastball.

If you are peeking and stealing signs, I'm good with a slider right at ya. You want to steal my livelihood as a pitcher, some offspeed to the midsection is more than deserved IMO. 

You spike my teammate, ala Machado vs Aguilar last year, I'm going straight 95 heat right at your ribs and if something breaks...good. Ya won't be taking away anyone's livelihood for a good bit. 

To me, there's a its just a part of the game element to the HBP that is also a part of pitching strategies. 

 

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14 minutes ago, sleepysock said:

 

Disrespectful generation? Ha. GET OFF MY LAWN, AMIRITE?

 

I want the game to be more fun and accessible and filled with colorful personalities, something it is sorely lacking. You want to be an old-man gate-keeper. If you think you're in the right, I'm going to be frank with you -- the times, they are a changin, and they have passed you by. 

 

No, you’re not right. You’re making a lot of false assumptions about me that just aren’t true. Let me ask this...why does adding color and personalities and fun necessitate adding things that are inherently disrespectful? I want the guys to have fun, too. I love the personalities. I want rivalries to be heated again. I want passion and fire. I want the game to be fun for players and fans alike. Literally nowhere have I said baseball should be a funeral. But if changing times bring about a lack of respect for your fellow man, then just leave me behind. I prefer respect, honor, integrity...things I’ve learned more about as I’ve gotten older...as I’ve matured. I was taught these things growing up, and I wish I would have made them a part of my life sooner. If you’re trying to make me feel shame for demanding respect, you’re wasting your time. You won’t. Now did Keller disrespect Anderson? Sure, and as I’ve pondered this more, it really is a shame. You see, you’re trying to be funny and clever and cool. But one day, the tables will be turned on you. 

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2 minutes ago, Flyman75 said:

 

No, you’re not right. You’re making a lot of false assumptions about me that just aren’t true. Let me ask this...why does adding color and personalities and fun necessitate adding things that are inherently disrespectful? I want the guys to have fun, too. I love the personalities. I want rivalries to be heated again. I want passion and fire. I want the game to be fun for players and fans alike. Literally nowhere have I said baseball should be a funeral. But if changing times bring about a lack of respect for your fellow man, then just leave me behind. I prefer respect, honor, integrity...things I’ve learned more about as I’ve gotten older...as I’ve matured. I was taught these things growing up, and I wish I would have made them a part of my life sooner. If you’re trying to make me feel shame for demanding respect, you’re wasting your time. You won’t. Now did Keller disrespect Anderson? Sure, and as I’ve pondered this more, it really is a shame. You see, you’re trying to be funny and clever and cool. But one day, the tables will be turned on you. 

 

But is a bat-flip disrespectful? It is the most innocuous celebration ni pro sports, but has been overtly vilified as something horrifying. I just don't understand I guess. 

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44 minutes ago, Flyman75 said:

 

What baffles me is the ones who condone Anderson’s bat flip. That is a known no-no in baseball and softball circles. It is seen as disrespectful and taunting. I wonder how many of the guys who think that it’s okay actually played the game at all. We want Keller to respect the game (me included), but we’re okay with Anderson disrespecting the game, Keller, and the Royals. Be pumped...be excited as you round the bases...jump around in the dugout and celebrate with your team. But don’t show up the opponent. And if you do, expect some form of retaliation, whether it’s right or wrong. I’ll say it again, the reason Anderson didn’t charge, imho, was because he knew he did wrong. 

 

He wasn't showing him up. He was excited for himself and his team. Brad Keller just took it that way and the only way he could express is irrational emotions was beaning him.

That bat flipping IS an known no-no is the problem people are trying to make here.. Baseball exists ONLY for entertainment purposes and its way behind the times for several reasons. This type of thinking is one of them.

No is saying baseball should just become super gimmicky or anything, but people and culture have changed. Baseball has shown little adaptably.

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Lots to dissect here - 

* So the Anderson bat-flip, sure it might have been a bit over the top, but it shouldnt be a big deal.  But for those who are gonna grow the game with this?  I mean he will hit what 20HR?  which is like less than 1 per week, so are people really viewing in 162 on the off-chance today is the day he hits a HR and bat flips?  Dont mind a good HBP when player gets caught trying to peak in at catchers signs or if player does a dirty play and you want to retaliate, my daughters coach when they were 12 in fastpitch the runner at 2B was signaling and not being very discreet and so she had a play where P would catch ball from catcher wheel and fire a pickoff play and the SS would go behind the runner and kind of an "oops".  

I think as a team you want to respect your opponent, to me hitting a HR and getting excited is a natural reaction - but things like stealing when you are just crushing a team and or doing things like that or disrespecting an inferior team things like that I am not OK with.  .  

 

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5 minutes ago, taobball said:

 

But is a bat-flip disrespectful? It is the most innocuous celebration ni pro sports, but has been overtly vilified as something horrifying. I just don't understand I guess. 

 

Maybe it’s just the old school in me, but to me it is. 

Btw, I’m going to PM you back lol. Just haven’t taken the time yet 😁

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9 minutes ago, Flyman75 said:

 

No, you’re not right. You’re making a lot of false assumptions about me that just aren’t true. Let me ask this...why does adding color and personalities and fun necessitate adding things that are inherently disrespectful? I want the guys to have fun, too. I love the personalities. I want rivalries to be heated again. I want passion and fire. I want the game to be fun for players and fans alike. Literally nowhere have I said baseball should be a funeral. But if changing times bring about a lack of respect for your fellow man, then just leave me behind. I prefer respect, honor, integrity...things I’ve learned more about as I’ve gotten older...as I’ve matured. I was taught these things growing up, and I wish I would have made them a part of my life sooner. If you’re trying to make me feel shame for demanding respect, you’re wasting your time. You won’t. Now did Keller disrespect Anderson? Sure, and as I’ve pondered this more, it really is a shame. You see, you’re trying to be funny and clever and cool. But one day, the tables will be turned on you. 

 

Please explain to me how TA throwing his bat at his own dugout and yelling LET'S GO to his own team is "inherently disrespectful." If you prefer honor and respect and all that then it should be clear that TA is in the right here and Keller is completely in the wrong, no? Keller acted like a bratty POS and TA called him out on it, which is fair. Your argument is a stretch that not even Hawk Harrelson could get behind. 

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This is the new generation, the generation that were taught that spankings were a form of abuse and were urged to turn their parents in for such, and a lot of them did. They grew up with no discipline, hence the no respect attitudes, the I can do anything without taking responsibility for it..This is the participation generation that got trophies for showing up....

 

There is middle ground here that has to be met in order for the game to evolve to draw the family's back to the ballparks, while protecting the players, and keeping the respect aspect still part of the game. Draw an acceptable line for celebrations that maintain a decorum of respect, that's all we old farts are asking, not total stoic behavior....and yea, no more intentional beanings, one will slip every once in a while, they are human after all...

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12 minutes ago, taobball said:

 

But is a bat-flip disrespectful? It is the most innocuous celebration in pro sports, but has been overtly vilified as something horrifying. I just don't understand I guess. 

 

Baseball players are a sensitive bunch.

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19 minutes ago, taobball said:

 

But is a bat-flip disrespectful? It is the most innocuous celebration ni pro sports, but has been overtly vilified as something horrifying. I just don't understand I guess. 

 

By today's rules offense is determined by the perception of the supposed victim. I guess it's up to pitchers to decide if a bat flip is offensive or not. 

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13 minutes ago, FISH ON said:

This is the new generation, the generation that were taught that spankings were a form of abuse and were urged to turn their parents in for such, and a lot of them did. They grew up with no discipline, hence the no respect attitudes, the I can do anything without taking responsibility for it..This is the participation generation that got trophies for showing up....

 

There is middle ground here that has to be met in order for the game to evolve to draw the family's back to the ballparks, while protecting the players, and keeping the respect aspect still part of the game. Draw an acceptable line for celebrations that maintain a decorum of respect, that's all we old farts are asking, not total stoic behavior....and yea, no more intentional beanings, one will slip every once in a while, they are human after all...

 

This has nothing to do with generations. Reggie Jackson was pulling this crap 40 something years ago. 

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14 minutes ago, FISH ON said:

This is the new generation, the generation that were taught that spankings were a form of abuse and were urged to turn their parents in for such, and a lot of them did. They grew up with no discipline, hence the no respect attitudes, the I can do anything without taking responsibility for it..This is the participation generation that got trophies for showing up....

 

There is middle ground here that has to be met in order for the game to evolve to draw the family's back to the ballparks, while protecting the players, and keeping the respect aspect still part of the game. Draw an acceptable line for celebrations that maintain a decorum of respect, that's all we old farts are asking, not total stoic behavior....and yea, no more intentional beanings, one will slip every once in a while, they are human after all...

We're veering off track, but speaking as a former social worker and educator who has studied these things, they were taught that because virtually every bit of research we have shows that the only positive consequence is immediate compliance. That's it. Every other one is negative, most extraordinarily so. Some debilitatingly so. You did not live in the greatest generation and things would not be better if we hit the rewind button. Ditto for me. Each generation should aspire to be better than the last. More intelligent, more pacifistic, more logical, more compassionate, etc. Why anyone would want to halt that kind of progress just bc they're uncomfortable with a little change is beyond me. 

 

The fact that people are equating bat flips with disrespect and urinating on the sanctity of the game and a larger social problem is all a bit much. 

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Just now, FISH ON said:

This is the new generation, the generation that were taught that spankings were a form of abuse and were urged to turn their parents in for such, and a lot of them did. They grew up with no discipline, hence the no respect attitudes, the I can do anything without taking responsibility for it..This is the participation generation that got trophies for showing up....

 

There is middle ground here that has to be met in order for the game to evolve to draw the family's back to the ballparks, while protecting the players, and keeping the respect aspect still part of the game. Draw an acceptable line for celebrations that maintain a decorum of respect, that's all we old farts are asking, not total stoic behavior....and yea, no more intentional beanings, one will slip every once in a while, they are human after all...

Hard to prove intention on beaning. Pitcher is always gonna say he just let it get away regardless. Is what it is.

It really comes to watching something where you can see those invovled have passion. Those bat flipping things are moments of expression. If a guy flips his bat and stares down the pitcher? Yeah, he's trying to start some crap. Flipping his bat and looking at his dugout or going out the yard though? That is just pitchers getting hurt emotionally when the player is sucked into his own moment.

I get why people see at as disrespectful, but that's the baseball culture. Prefers professionalism over passion..and it'll age like its fan base.

 

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52 minutes ago, FISH ON said:

This is the new generation, the generation that were taught that spankings were a form of abuse and were urged to turn their parents in for such, and a lot of them did. They grew up with no discipline, hence the no respect attitudes, the I can do anything without taking responsibility for it..This is the participation generation that got trophies for showing up

 

This is nonsense and bull****. These are the same aspersions the Baby Boomers thru on Gen X. Now Gen X turns and casts those aspersions on Millenials. All of it nonsense. If you don’t like an individual, direct your anger at that individual. Otherwise stop it with this generational bull**** that has never been anything but old people pretending their generation was anything different. Gen Xers were spoiled too dummies. 

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5 hours ago, shakestreet said:

Brad Keller was not headhunting ... he threw the ball where he wanted it a perfect place,  I can honestly say his teammates are behind him 100%. Anderson showboated and he got what was coming. 

Way I look at it is it's a win-win. Keller assuaged his delicate feelings and Anderson was put in a position to score. Sure he gets a bruise out of it but a free bag is a free bag. 

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Posted (edited)

I honestly don't care if guys bat flip or intentionally bean each other (low).  Nothing was hurt besides a few feelings on both sides   It's all part of baseball in it's own way.  Pretty minor dust up at the end of the day.  

Edited by Snilbog

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1 hour ago, FISH ON said:

This is the new generation, the generation that were taught that spankings were a form of abuse and were urged to turn their parents in for such, and a lot of them did. They grew up with no discipline, hence the no respect attitudes, the I can do anything without taking responsibility for it..This is the participation generation that got trophies for showing up....

 

There is middle ground here that has to be met in order for the game to evolve to draw the family's back to the ballparks, while protecting the players, and keeping the respect aspect still part of the game. Draw an acceptable line for celebrations that maintain a decorum of respect, that's all we old farts are asking, not total stoic behavior....and yea, no more intentional beanings, one will slip every once in a while, they are human after all...

 

I wasn't going to get into this generation debate, but that line in particular has always bothered me. We didn't ask for the trophies. It was the parents that couldn't stand seeing little Billy not getting a trophy at the end of his Little League season. As for everything else, the older generations have always tried to bring down the younger (Gen Z and their dang Fortnite). In the 60's Boomers were disrespectful, Gen X had their turn later on, we're getting close to the point of Millennials doing the same to Gen Z. Point is, anyone who tries to seriously suggest an entire generation is 'disrespectful' or 'undisciplined' is, well, wrong. 

 

All that out of the way, I can buy that Anderson's celebration was a bit excessive. But purposely hitting a guy is stupid. Besides it being a largely ineffective way to fix your own hurt feeling, you're putting a guy on base for free. I'd thank the pitcher as I trot down to first tbh.

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