Fantasyscrub

Nikola Jokic 2019-2020 Season Outlook

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2 minutes ago, taenggg said:

Yeah it wasn't directed at you even though I quoted you. Just happened to be the last post that mentioned those players. 

Well, putting aside whether you want to do it, do you think the option will be open?  I think if that's what you want to do you can go Jokic 6th, Luka, 19th, and Simmons 30.  Whether you'd want to do that in 9 cat is another story.😆

 

Personally, I like combining him with Booker.  Just punt TO and blocks.  Or punt points: Jokic, Turner, Draymond.  I went Jokic, Butler, Aldridge in our roto league.

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I don't see any reason to punt some category if I start with Jokic. The same story also with many first-rounders: AD, KAT, Curry, Embiid, Lillard also no reason to punt.

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50 minutes ago, apatas said:

I don't see any reason to punt some category if I start with Jokic. The same story also with many first-rounders: AD, KAT, Curry, Embiid, Lillard also no reason to punt.

 

You are not punting with your first pick...you are punting with your 2nd, 3rd and 4th picks.....

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5 minutes ago, crocp said:

 

You are not punting with your first pick...you are punting with your 2nd, 3rd and 4th picks.....

Yes, I can punt with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th pick, but what I wanted to say that if I start with Jokic I don't see any reason to punt also with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th pick. Punt is not mandatory and Jokic is good first-rounder for creating balanced team.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, apatas said:

Yes, I can punt with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th pick, but what I wanted to say that if I start with Jokic I don't see any reason to punt also with my 2nd, 3rd and 4th pick. Punt is not mandatory and Jokic is good first-rounder for creating balanced team.

 

You dont have to punt with Jokic (or anyone for that matter)....but punting (in a H2H category league, not roto), will always give you the best chance to win. Its wise to punt. With Jokic you punt blocks or 3's. Lillard you punt blocks as well....KAT can punt assists or 3's...Embiid punt fg, Harden punt fg% etc etc...It open up more value for you later on in the draft if you punt...

Is it necessary...no. 

Will it help you win...yes.

Edited by crocp
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1 hour ago, StifleTower2 said:

Well, putting aside whether you want to do it, do you think the option will be open?  I think if that's what you want to do you can go Jokic 6th, Luka, 19th, and Simmons 30.  Whether you'd want to do that in 9 cat is another story.😆

 

Personally, I like combining him with Booker.  Just punt TO and blocks.  Or punt points: Jokic, Turner, Draymond.  I went Jokic, Butler, Aldridge in our roto league.

I think Simmons is slowly moving up draft boards especially after he knocked down his first three 🤣He might not even be available at 30 which is why I mentioned possibly grabbing him in the second round (at 19 if you get Jokic at 6th).

Jokic, Turner, Draymond is fine but you might run into issues controlling your FT% since you have no FT anchor and those three are low volume guys. Alternatively, if I'm going to grab a big like Turner in the second round I'd much rather grab a high rebounding big with better FG%. 

Booker is a solid pairing, but I have him behind a few guys to pair with Jokic and I also don't fully trust the Suns to play him 70+ games. 

A Jokic, Butler LMA/big core is ideal as well. FWIW in last years draft I went Jokic, Butler (in two leagues) and Capela/big so it's the same line of thinking. 

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33 minutes ago, crocp said:

 

You dont have to punt with Jokic (or anyone for that matter)....but punting (in a H2H category league, not roto), will always give you the best chance to win. Its wise to punt. With Jokic you punt blocks or 3's. Lillard you punt blocks as well....KAT can punt assists or 3's...Embiid punt fg, Harden punt fg% etc etc...It open up more value for you later on in the draft if you punt...

Is it necessary...no. 

Will it help you win...yes.

Pretty big oversimplification. There are also many advantages to not punting as well. The top 2 seeds in most leagues get byes, in my experience the top 2 seeds are usually non punting teams with amazing records that often average stronger than a 6-3 week, incredibly hard to do while punting.

Being balanced allows you to win cats that you may have punted previously because often other teams have punted or semi punted a category you didnt and just being average in that cat can be a plus against several teams in your league.

Being balanced is less vulnerable to injuries derailing your entire team. For example if you lose your main big man in punt assists build you are in rough shape but if you are balanced you should be strong enough in guard cats to make up for this type of loss to big man cats. 

Being balanced initially can let you build toward soft points as the season goes on. For example after about 4 weeks you have a good idea of how your team performs in each cat, you can them make trades or waiver adds that strategically strengthen 6 or 7 cats as much as you can. This is different than punting and I wouldnt even call it soft punting because you are not trying to sacrifice any stats to improve others, you are simply building on 6 or 7 cats as much as possible while being decent in the other 2 or 3. 

Punting limits your mid season moves often. For example if you punt assists, some hot waiver add that pops up that is awesome for assists but just mediocre or less in the rest wont be useful for you and you usually pass. The balanced team grabs that guy and pads his assists even more. More flexibility with moves. 

Punting can obviously work very well but not punting can work just as well and I prefer not being pidgeon wholed into almost being forced into certain players because they are "must haves" in that punt. What if you get snaked on that player or get outbid? What if even the next target you miss as well but the first two picks for example you went a punt fg direction but then your next main punt fg targets are gone, do you keep going or change strategy? Gets hectic if you go into a draft to set on something specific. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, richg24 said:

Pretty big oversimplification. There are also many advantages to not punting as well. The top 2 seeds in most leagues get byes, in my experience the top 2 seeds are usually non punting teams with amazing records that often average stronger than a 6-3 week, incredibly hard to do while punting.

Being balanced allows you to win cats that you may have punted previously because often other teams have punted or semi punted a category you didnt and just being average in that cat can be a plus against several teams in your league.

Being balanced is less vulnerable to injuries derailing your entire team. For example if you lose your main big man in punt assists build you are in rough shape but if you are balanced you should be strong enough in guard cats to make up for this type of loss to big man cats. 

Being balanced initially can let you build toward soft points as the season goes on. For example after about 4 weeks you have a good idea of how your team performs in each cat, you can them make trades or waiver adds that strategically strengthen 6 or 7 cats as much as you can. This is different than punting and I wouldnt even call it soft punting because you are not trying to sacrifice any stats to improve others, you are simply building on 6 or 7 cats as much as possible while being decent in the other 2 or 3. 

Punting limits your mid season moves often. For example if you punt assists, some hot waiver add that pops up that is awesome for assists but just mediocre or less in the rest wont be useful for you and you usually pass. The balanced team grabs that guy and pads his assists even more. More flexibility with moves. 

Punting can obviously work very well but not punting can work just as well and I prefer not being pidgeon wholed into almost being forced into certain players because they are "must haves" in that punt. What if you get snaked on that player or get outbid? What if even the next target you miss as well but the first two picks for example you went a punt fg direction but then your next main punt fg targets are gone, do you keep going or change strategy? Gets hectic if you go into a draft to set on something specific. 

Basically you said everything what I also wanted to say but due to my poor English (not native language) I couldn't write so long comment. But I say only two things: 1) If you have balanced team, then chances to make play-offs will increase 2) Unfortunately balanced team usually finishes 2nd or 3rd place, winning team is often punt team. But, yes, balanced team have many advantages and it is consistent.

Edited by apatas
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53 minutes ago, crocp said:

 

You dont have to punt with Jokic (or anyone for that matter)....but punting (in a H2H category league, not roto), will always give you the best chance to win. Its wise to punt. With Jokic you punt blocks or 3's. Lillard you punt blocks as well....KAT can punt assists or 3's...Embiid punt fg, Harden punt fg% etc etc...It open up more value for you later on in the draft if you punt...

Is it necessary...no. 

Will it help you win...yes.

 

I think a points punt with Jokic is feasible and almost bordering on necessary if you don't take a high points player in rounds 2-3...or you decide to chase points and try to get Gallo / CJ types later but at that point you're diverting resources to try and catch up...because you're not gonna beat the Harden / Curry etc teams in points, you're also behind Lebron, Dame, KAT, Giannis, Embiid, Kawhi, Kyrie, Beal, etc, and basically a lot of other players.  You could take Booker or Butler and catch up since other teams will have to take Gobert / Turner / Mitch / Dray / Covington etc...but I would rather just build on my advantages than chase points.  I did have a chance to take Booker / Trae / Vuc / Butler to pair with Jokic, but ultimately thought Drummond (then Draymond) gives me the best chance to win in H2H versus these other teams that already have advantages in points.  

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38 minutes ago, apatas said:

Basically you said everything what I also wanted to say but due to my poor English (not native language) I couldn't write so long comment. But I say only two things: 1) If you have balanced team, then chances to make play-offs will increase 2) Unfortunately balanced team usually finishes 2nd or 3rd place, winning team is often punt team. But, yes, balanced team have many advantages and it is consistent.

 

Most of us are in it to win championships.....if you want to win your regular season, then not punting is the way to go. I personally do not care for regular season wins and therefore I punt..

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1 minute ago, crocp said:

 

Most of us are in it to win championships.....if you want to win your regular season, then not punting is the way to go. I personally do not care for regular season wins and therefore I punt..

In our league there are four prizes: 1) regular season winner, 2) first place, 3) second place, 3) third place. I just say: the goal is to win money and regular season win or 2nd place also helps. Of course winner gets the most, but if I finish positive it is also OK.

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24 minutes ago, hipriest69 said:

 

I think a points punt with Jokic is feasible and almost bordering on necessary if you don't take a high points player in rounds 2-3...or you decide to chase points and try to get Gallo / CJ types later but at that point you're diverting resources to try and catch up...because you're not gonna beat the Harden / Curry etc teams in points, you're also behind Lebron, Dame, KAT, Giannis, Embiid, Kawhi, Kyrie, Beal, etc, and basically a lot of other players.  You could take Booker or Butler and catch up since other teams will have to take Gobert / Turner / Mitch / Dray / Covington etc...but I would rather just build on my advantages than chase points.  I did have a chance to take Booker / Trae / Vuc / Butler to pair with Jokic, but ultimately thought Drummond (then Draymond) gives me the best chance to win in H2H versus these other teams that already have advantages in points.  

 

I know a Jokic/Drummond/Draymond could work, but you are basically punting 3 cats off the bat (pts, 3's and ft%). If you build your team correctly it could work, but the rest of your draft needs to be damn near perfect. Was you plan to punt 3 cats? I am surprised you didn't go with a Jokic/Vuc pairing...i think that is what I am leaning towards and then I just punt blocks...

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, apatas said:

In our league there are four prizes: 1) regular season winner, 2) first place, 3) second place, 3) third place. I just say: the goal is to win money and regular season win or 2nd place also helps. Of course winner gets the most, but if I finish positive it is also OK.

 

Agreed if you look at it that way. I play in a 14 team league with friends i've known for 15+ years since highschool and university....the regular season winner gets a good sum of money (around $300), but ultimately we are all in it for the bragging rights and the championship...the bragging rights and chirping rights are all that matter, and a regular season win does not get you that. Ship or bust. 

If you are in it for the money, then try to build a well balanced team and finish first.

Edited by crocp

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, crocp said:

 

I know a Jokic/Drummond/Draymond could work, but you are basically punting 3 cats off the bat (pts, 3's and ft%). If you build your team correctly it could work, but the rest of your draft needs to be damn near perfect. Was you plan to punt 3 cats? I am surprised you didn't go with a Jokic/Vuc pairing...i think that is what I am leaning towards and then I just punt blocks...

 

Yes I was leaning Jokic / Vuc but Drummond was just too tempting for me, and is more durable and impactful than Vuc.  And Vuc will only hit about 1 three per game (and he shot a career high from 3 last year I believe, which might regress to his median, maybe not), so I kind of will need 3's later anyway.  The FT is punt level, but there are 2 other punt FT teams that ended up worse than mine that I can beat.  I figured even with Jokic/Vuc and good FT shooters rest of way I'm probably still losing to the Steph / Harden / Dame / other punt FG teams, so didn't want to fight a losing battle.  It sucks punting 3 cats but I figure at least I can try and load up and stream 3's (plus Dray and Jokic are around 1 three / game).  I ended up trying for 3's with higher than median players like Lopez, Lowry, Danny Green, Beverly, Seth Curry, Forbes, and Prince.  Not sure it will be enough, but even if I lose 3's I feel like I still have a strong pathway to  6-3 / 5-4, especially against teams that are built to be strong in 3's (such as the punt FG teams...

..then it comes down to assists / steals, if I win just one of them I win 5-4, and I just so happen to have my first 3 picks are all bigs who are elite or above the median in steals and assists).  

Edited by hipriest69

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I just did the draft (pick 6, 12 temas H2H) and ended up with the next team:

1- Jokic

2- Simmons

3-Fox

4- Markkanen

5- Covington

6-Steven Adams

7- Ja Morant

8- Enes Kanter

9- TJ Warren

10- Bogdan Bogdanovic

11-Dinwiddie

What do you guys think?

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4 minutes ago, DrFate said:

I just did the draft (pick 6, 12 temas H2H) and ended up with the next team:

1- Jokic

2- Simmons

3-Fox

4- Markkanen

5- Covington

6-Steven Adams

7- Ja Morant

8- Enes Kanter

9- TJ Warren

10- Bogdan Bogdanovic

11-Dinwiddie

What do you guys think?

 

I'm not sure what to think...your efficiency in FG/FT/TO are destroyed, since you have punt level players for all 3 cats - Simmons and Adams punt your FT, while Markkanen and Ja are punt types for FG, and TO is bad with Jokic, Fox, Simmons, Ja...counting stats are bomb tho.  Not quite enough 3's, so you're looking at finagling a 5-4 by winning Reb/Ast/Stl  (only steals and assists look strong enough to be a considered an "easy" win week to week, reb look good too), but you're hoping for blocks, points, FG, FT, TO, and 3's.  Whereas you should be looking to secure more cats - so probably choosing only one % cat to punt, and going for more 3's...

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23 hours ago, DrFate said:

I'm picking 6th in my 15-cat H2H league, and I'm gonna go with Jokic, and try to punt blocks and TO, any ideas on the following picks?

 

Jokic will fit well with a punt TO team and/or blocks

 

Guys like Booker, Lavine, Griffin will fit beautifully

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, hipriest69 said:

 

I'm not sure what to think...your efficiency in FG/FT/TO are destroyed, since you have punt level players for all 3 cats - Simmons and Adams punt your FT, while Markkanen and Ja are punt types for FG, and TO is bad with Jokic, Fox, Simmons, Ja...counting stats are bomb tho.  Not quite enough 3's, so you're looking at finagling a 5-4 by winning Reb/Ast/Stl  (only steals and assists look strong enough to be a considered an "easy" win week to week, reb look good too), but you're hoping for blocks, points, FG, FT, TO, and 3's.  Whereas you should be looking to secure more cats - so probably choosing only one % cat to punt, and going for more 3's...

 

I dont think FG% is a punt here. Jokic, Simmons, Adams, Kanter and Warren are all good in that cat. Fox has ok fg% for a pg. Only Covington and Markkananen will hurt. Maybe Ja but he was solid in college. Dinwiddie/Bogdan first guys to drop for streaming. 

I think youre right with the rest :)

Edited by Chrizz
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37 minutes ago, Fantasyscrub said:

 

Jokic will fit well with a punt TO team and/or blocks

 

Guys like Booker, Lavine, Griffin will fit beautifully

These types of dudes paired with Joker will leave you anemic in steals and blocks both. 

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1 hour ago, crocp said:

 

I know a Jokic/Drummond/Draymond could work, but you are basically punting 3 cats off the bat (pts, 3's and ft%). If you build your team correctly it could work, but the rest of your draft needs to be damn near perfect. Was you plan to punt 3 cats? I am surprised you didn't go with a Jokic/Vuc pairing...i think that is what I am leaning towards and then I just punt blocks...

Adding on to what HP69 said in terms of winning an extra cat here and there, another key to triple punting PT/FT/3s IMO is paying attention to your TOs. I know Josh Lloyd always says to forget about TOs when drafting , but there are instances especially in punt builds such as this where TO can be a free cat to win. And rather then winning 5-4 every week you have a shot at 6-3 weeks. 

You want your early round guys who are typically the high usage players to be the ones negatively affecting your TOs (I.E Simmons, draymond etc) . Ideally, you want your mid and late round bigs contributing in AST, but if you can't find those (bam, Nance, horford, etc), you want to avoid bigs who will hurt you in turnovers. My TO threshold for bigs that won't help me in AST is to usually avoid anything higher then 1.8/9ish.

Rounding out the rest of your roster will come down to drafting guards and wings who will contribute in AST/Stls while keeping a reasonable TO:Ast ratio. There are plenty of guards available in the later rounds that meet this criteria - FVV, Sato, Tyus Jones, Delon, White, Teague types. 

A triple punt isn't easy to do I agree. Unfortunately people fall victim to this idea that you have to grab the Rubios, Lonzos and other high ast high TO guys for it to be successful, which isn't always the case. This is why I don't mind grabbing Butler to pair with Jokic. Even though your wasting his FT contribution, it's hard to find guys who will give you above average FG%, elite steals, 5+ ast with less than 2 turns.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, taenggg said:

Adding on to what HP69 said in terms of winning an extra cat here and there, another key to triple punting PT/FT/3s IMO is paying attention to your TOs. I know Josh Lloyd always says to forget about TOs when drafting , but there are instances especially in punt builds such as this where TO can be a free cat to win. And rather then winning 5-4 every week you have a shot at 6-3 weeks. 

You want your early round guys who are typically the high usage players to be the ones negatively affecting your TOs (I.E Simmons, draymond etc) . Ideally, you want your mid and late round bigs contributing in AST, but if you can't find those (bam, Nance, horford, etc), you want to avoid bigs who will hurt you in turnovers. My TO threshold for bigs that won't help me in AST is to usually avoid anything higher then 1.8/9ish.

Rounding out the rest of your roster will come down to drafting guards and wings who will contribute in AST/Stls while keeping a reasonable TO:Ast ratio. There are plenty of guards available in the later rounds that meet this criteria - FVV, Sato, Tyus Jones, Delon, White, Teague types. 

A triple punt isn't easy to do I agree. Unfortunately people fall victim to this idea that you have to grab the Rubios, Lonzos and other high ast high TO guys for it to be successful, which isn't always the case. This is why I don't mind grabbing Butler to pair with Jokic. Even though your wasting his FT contribution, it's hard to find guys who will give you above average FG%, elite steals, 5+ ast with less than 2 turns.

 

 

 

You're not wasting his FT, with Jokic and Butler your FT is amazing.  

 

Also, I agree about grabbing the Rubio/Lonzo high TO guys for assists, since there are low usage assists available later...have to be careful with those TO!  And to a certain extent FG if you're building ast/3's and don't get your big FG whoppers.  

Edited by hipriest69
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Just now, hipriest69 said:

 

You're not wasting his FT, with Jokic and Butler your FT is amazing.  

 

Also, I agree about grabbing the Rubio/Lonzo high TO guys for assists, since there are low usage assists available later...

Oh I agree, I meant if you somehow manage to punt FTs if you draft Jokic and Butler in the 1st and 2nd 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, taenggg said:

Oh I agree, I meant if you somehow manage to punt FTs if you draft Jokic and Butler in the 1st and 2nd 

 

Ah yes that would be a waste...but Capela would be manageable...Whiteside could be ok if he improves back to his "median"...Drummo/Lebron/Gobert all gone already.  Westbrook maybe still there and he would be bad.  Adams and Simmons might be the only two after that point that would totally ruin it I think.  Don't know what Zion shoots...maybe Luka if he somehow doesn't improve his FT...

Edited by hipriest69

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