bogfella

Pitcher Value Touts

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I thought of what might be a better way to define a cutter vs. a slider:

Think of the cutter as a soft fastball with a little break and a slider as a hard curve with a little break.

That's why you sometimes see the people who coach young players encouraging the use of a cutter rather than a slider. Because the cutter is really a fastball with a slightly different grip, it doesn't put the stress on the elbow like a slider which is thrown like a curve but harder (which means very high stress).

Good stuff! Thanks!

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Is the arm slot the same it's just delivered with a different intensity?

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Is the arm slot the same it's just delivered with a different intensity?

Its more the grip and arm action rather than arm slot. A cutter is thrown exactly like a fastball with the grip similar to a 4 seamer but off center. The arm slot should be the same as a fastball. A slider is thrown with more of a curve arm slot which is probably very close to the same as the fastball unless the pitcher is one of those that drops down and changes his arm slot to disguise his pitches. A slider, unlike a fastball or cutter, has a sharp downward break of the wrist like a curve and that is where the difference comes.

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Is the arm slot the same it's just delivered with a different intensity?

Ideally, every pitch a pitcher throws should be out of the same arm slot, right? Arm slots may vary from pitcher to pitcher, but the same one shouldn't use a different arm slot for a cutter that he does for a slider.... unless he changes up arm slots randomly to deceive hitters. I'm no expert, but that makes sense to me.

Edited by kvnnn

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Ideally, every pitch a pitcher throws should be out of the same arm slot, right? Arm slots may vary from pitcher to pitcher, but the same one shouldn't use a different arm slot for a cutter that he does for a slider.... unless he changes up arm slots randomly to deceive hitters. I'm no expert, but that makes sense to me.

Yes. And pitchers with repeatable mechanics are typically the strongest and/or most consistent.

So, I'm not talking about cats who wildly alter their arm-slots, ie dropping down side-arm.

I guess I failed to phrase what I want to express adequately, KVNNN

See- That's what I never kenned: It has always appeared TO ME that some pitchers vary their delivery between the top of their arc through their delivery. The arm action looks different to me and not simply the grips.

All these years as I have tracked the ball in the hand have I simply imagined course deviation or does the angle change during the follow through?

Edited by TitaniumMan

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Can someone give me some insight on Ogando? I'm running him out there tonight against a light hitting M's lineup.

I know he used to be an outfielder and had a great arm, so he should bring the heat, no?

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Can someone give me some insight on Ogando? I'm running him out there tonight against a light hitting M's lineup.

I know he used to be an outfielder and had a great arm, so he should bring the heat, no?

From what I remember he has a nasty, nasty curve.

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I'm no expert on pitching mechanics, in fact I am far from it, but I do think the arm angle will at least appear to be a bit different with the two pitches because of the movement of the arm between the top of the arc and the release. When you snap downward in putting rotation on a slider or curve it has to change the arm angle to some extent. We need one our mechanics experts to weigh in here ... Bog is getting in over his head lol

EDIT: This post refers to the earlier discussion regarding cutters and sliders

Edited by bogfella

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Can someone give me some insight on Ogando? I'm running him out there tonight against a light hitting M's lineup.

I know he used to be an outfielder and had a great arm, so he should bring the heat, no?

He's really all about the heat as he gets into the high 90s although having to go the innings of a starter could drop that a bit. He has a decent but inconsistent slider and he wasn't real comfortable changing speeds yet which is why he would probably be better in a relief role right now. The M's might be soft enough to take a risk but I would be kinda hesitant to use him against a heavy hitting team - at least until I've seen him to see how his secondary pitches have come along.

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I have been high on Ogando for a while, in the Closer chaosaggedon thread. IMHO it's just confidence and 'poise' re: the slider. With it being more teachable and considering who's there doing the teaching, it's safe to start licking your chops. A lot of us are. This was Neftali Feliz (in several key respects) before, and that's why a lot of us had him rostered before Frankie Franc had even lost the job or Spring Training was halfway over, because it was that much of a lock.

As for being a temporary starter, I wouldn't get that excited but I could definitely envision a short-term breakout, if he can even remotely locate the off-speed stuff. Even in the absence of that, a splitter could still produce the kind of results to help limit his pitch-count, so there's clearly value there right now in the short-term. The sad part is, though, I don't really have spots to give on any rosters to take a chance on this kid - so many were asleep on a Beachy, Travis Wood, Drabek, Zimm, Colby Lewis, that could conceivably go all year. If you're in the kind of league where you know you need to move pretty soon on an upside like this, (particularly) considering what this organization is turning into overall, good for you and I say go for it. Just make sure some of those other guys aren't still out there.

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Thanks for the insight guys. Yeah I'm in the sort of league that any guy with even a HINT of upside gets snagged, so figured I'd take the chance and roll with it. I obviously wouldn't start him against anyone outside of the M's, Padres, A's etc.

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Yes. And pitchers with repeatable mechanics are typically the strongest and/or most consistent.

So, I'm not talking about cats who wildly alter their arm-slots, ie dropping down side-arm.

I guess I failed to phrase what I want to express adequately, KVNNN

See- That's what I never kenned: It has always appeared TO ME that some pitchers vary their delivery between the top of their arc through their delivery. The arm action looks different to me and not simply the grips.

All these years as I have tracked the ball in the hand have I simply imagined course deviation or does the angle change during the follow through?

I gotcha. I wasn't questioning your knowledge, I know you're a reputable resident here on these boards. I was more so clarifying for my own purposes. Interesting question you pose though on the follow through - I suppose this would not have as much effect on the batter's eye and would not lead to tipping pitches.... but I'd imagine the saying that the more repeatable a delivery, the better, still holds true.

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Good for you Flsch. Those are the kinds of leagues I am in too, and the posts/posters I like to see the most. It pains me when some just trash any and all spec, any and all going out on a limb, because in their league 6+ guys with more value are already available.

Well, good for them, but I've had to have an eye on Ogando for a while because I made off with Feliz last year doing the same thing and I don't want to get burned. I just don't think it's going to be as a starter - maybe the Rangers will play fantasy owners once again and trade high on him to another team that would deploy him in the 9th.

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Great thread bogfella.

Now that he's been appointed closer...how about Jordan Walden? What's the 411 on him?

Edited by ludawg23

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Great thread bogfella.

Now that he's been appointed closer...how about Jordan Walden? What's the 411 on him?

Should have been the closer long ago (if Rodney was the alternative). Ok, ok it was judicious to give him a little time to settle in and get his mechanics smoothed out but I love the guy. He was on my "list" long, long, long before they decided to move him to relief and I was even more excited about him when they did. I have no doubt there will be some bumps in the road but he has all the right ingredients to be a very successful closer long term.

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Great thread bogfella.

Now that he's been appointed closer...how about Jordan Walden? What's the 411 on him?

Pretty much what we saw tonight ... I liked the 82 mph breaking ball and then the 97 mph smoke up.

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Bog I am wondering you thoughts about a couple of guys Britton and Esmil Rogers.

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Had some high BB/9 and HR/9 #'s in the minors.

Watching Walden is tough. As good as his peripherals have been so far, he's extremely wild and doesn't have much command of the zone. His "stuff" however is nasty as can be, and I'm sure his blown saves if any will be due to walking bases loaded rather than getting lit up by bats.

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Sorry, didn't catch the earlier request ...

I certainly like Britton although he is enjoying the halo effect of his initial experience in the majors. He's a groundball pitcher which means he'll have days when they find holes and he probably won't be a big strikeout pitcher. That equates to a decent fantasy starter, but his first two starts will have him hyped beyond reasonable expectations. My guess is they will ride him while he's going good but when they get healthy he could go back down for a bit more seasoning.

Esmil Rogers is a fair candidate to become a useful starter. He's a fairly recently converted position player so its not surprising he is still learning how to pitch. Two things will be critical to his future success ... 1. he has to develop a more consistent change up to handle left-handed hitters and he has to refine his command a bit more. He has a pretty repeatable motion so the command will probably come in time, but he could ave some rough times until he gets it all together. His ceiling is probably a #4 and they talked at one time about moving him to the pen but they will likely give him a chance to start first.

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Chatwood would be a cameo at this point in his development. He doesn't have the command to take a regular turn at the MLB level yet and I am iffy on whether he will in the future. He has good stuff but things will need to click if he's going to make it as a starter. I am guessing a bullpen role might be a possibility.

As for Luebke, his value will be completely dependent on his opportunity. He *should* be the Padres 5th starter right now but it appears they want to give Mosely more time to see what he can do and they also have LeBlanc waiting to have a go. Mosely baffles me - he always has had far better stuff than results, but it all means Luebke is buried right now and he can't help you unless he grabs a useful role. If he does, I think he could be worth a flier.

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