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2 minutes ago, mrblonde1984 said:

 

The Patriots were 5-11 in 2000 and had gotten embarrassed Week 1 at Cincy to open 2001 before Brady came in vs the Jets in Week 2 when Mo Lewis murdered Bledsoe. That 2001 team was not expected to do anything.

 

Exactly. BB at that point had a similar HC record to Rex Ryan. The Pats were the joke that let Parcells get away, lost Curtis Martin for Robert Edwards, and desperately hired a failed Tuna disciple who had already run a star QB out of town (Kozar) and wasn't such a genius when he wasn't coaching Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson and Carl Banks. 

 

A lot has changed since then...

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Here's a wild stat: Brady has played with 68 Pro Bowlers in his career. Manning? 68!

 

It really is a very even debate.

 

 

 

 

Edited by My Dinner With Andre
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14 minutes ago, mrblonde1984 said:

 

The Patriots were 5-11 in 2000 and had gotten embarrassed Week 1 at Cincy to open 2001 before Brady came in vs the Jets in Week 2 when Mo Lewis murdered Bledsoe. That 2001 team was not expected to do anything.

yeah and you just so happened to not mention that before 2001 parcells took that team to the AFC title and super bowl as  and  pete carroll had winning records and a playoff appearance then carroll was replaced by belicheck and the 2000 season was belichecks  1st year as HC with a 5-11 record. So that team had all of the pieces for another playoff run and Drew bledose was the QB during all of it and was replaced by Brady in 2001.

 

Let's not go down this revisionist history that the pats sucked before Brady was named starting QB

 they had 2 losing seasons out of 7 and made the playoffs 4 out of those 7 seasons with 3 different coaches in 7 seasons and a superbowl appearance.

 

Thats not a team at the bottom of the barrel

Edited by dashoe

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4 minutes ago, My Dinner With Andre said:

Here's a wild stat: Brady has played with 68 Pro Bowlers in his career. Manning? 68!

 

It really is a very even debate.

 

 

 

 

Each of those guys played with a ton of talent. And includes HOF players prolly. 

 

Thats 136 probowl players between the two of them. By comparison...Brees has had 11 during his time with the Saints. 

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9 minutes ago, My Dinner With Andre said:

Here's a wild stat: Brady has played with 68 Pro Bowlers in his career. Manning? 68!

 

It really is a very even debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is an interesting stat but i would dig deeper and look at the distribution of those pro bowlers over the years and positions

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3 minutes ago, Tenner said:

Each of those guys played with a ton of talent. And includes HOF players prolly. 

 

Thats 136 probowl players between the two of them. By comparison...Brees has had 11 during his time with the Saints. 

 

 

I smell an argument that Brees is in the GOAT convo?

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2 minutes ago, dashoe said:

yeah and you just so happened to not mention that parcells took that team to the AFC title and super bowl as well as pete carroll had winning records then carroll was replaced by belicheck and the 2000 season was belichecks  1st year as HC with a 5-11 record. So that team had all of the pieces for another playoff run and Drew bledose was the QB during all of it and was replaced by Brady in 2001.

 

Let's not go down this revisionist history that the pats sucked before Brady was named starting QB

 they had 2 losing seasons out of 7 and made the playoffs 4 out of those 7 seasons with 3 different coaches in 7 seasons and a superbowl appearance.

 

Thats not a team at the bottom of the barrel

 

LOL 

 

A 5-11 team with a once fired HC starting off 0-2 in his 2nd season with his second team having just lost his starting QB about to face Peyton Manning and the 2-0 Colts week 3 who were leading the league in pts scored. 

 

And facing all that...the 199th pick in the previous year's draft who was the team's 4th string QB much of the previous season making his first ever NFL start for a team with zero Pro Bowlers on offense, defense, or special teams. 

 

Who thinks that's a team with "all the pieces" for a playoff run? LOL

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10 minutes ago, dashoe said:

yeah and you just so happened to not mention that before 2001 parcells took that team to the AFC title and super bowl as  and  pete carroll had winning records and a playoff appearance then carroll was replaced by belicheck and the 2000 season was belichecks  1st year as HC with a 5-11 record. So that team had all of the pieces for another playoff run and Drew bledose was the QB during all of it and was replaced by Brady in 2001.

 

Let's not go down this revisionist history that the pats sucked before Brady was named starting QB

 they had 2 losing seasons out of 7 and made the playoffs 4 out of those 7 seasons with 3 different coaches in 7 seasons and a superbowl appearance.

 

Thats not a team at the bottom of the barrel

 

LMAO! 

 

Patriots lost the Super Bowl in 1996 with Parcells, hired Pete Carroll and got worse every year. They went 8-8 in 1999 and 5-11 in 2000. It's not revisionist history on my end, it's you not knowing history. Also, just because a team was good one year doesn't mean they are good the next. With free agency and the salary cap, players move on. Or did Brady still have Curtis Martin and Ben Coates like Bledsoe had in 1996 when they went to the Super Bowl? You're so off base here it's hilarious.

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Just now, joshua18 said:

 

LOL 

 

A 5-11 team with a once fired HC starting off 0-2 in his 2nd season with his second team having just lost his starting QB about to face Peyton Manning and the 2-0 Colts week 3 who were leading the league in pts scored. 

 

And facing all that...the 199th pick in the previous year's draft who was the team's 4th string QB much of the previous season making his first ever NFL start for a team with zero Pro Bowlers on offense, defense, or special teams. 

 

Who thinks that's a team with "all the pieces" for a playoff run? LOL

 

 

Obviously you never understood the Parcells and Belicheck and their ability to build winning teams.  Belicheck helped Bill take the pats to the super bowl so like I said the pieces/framework of success were there when took the HC position.

Also if u knew anything about that team then u would have known that defense was solid, they won the game vs the colts not the offense

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7 minutes ago, mrblonde1984 said:

 

LMAO! 

 

Patriots lost the Super Bowl in 1996 with Parcells, hired Pete Carroll and got worse every year. They went 8-8 in 1999 and 5-11 in 2000. It's not revisionist history on my end, it's you not knowing history. Also, just because a team was good one year doesn't mean they are good the next. With free agency and the salary cap, players move on. Or did Brady still have Curtis Martin and Ben Coates like Bledsoe had in 1996 when they went to the Super Bowl? You're so off base here it's hilarious.

 

 

like i said revisionist histrory in your part. they were not good for only a single a single year prior to belicheck taking the HC positioneven carroll took them to the playoffs and u sadly think teams are instantly made in a single year to be champions, they are not. The pats didnt suck before Brady became the starter, so nice try.

Edited by dashoe

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10 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

 

I smell an argument that Brees is in the GOAT convo?

I wish. I could throw some stats out there...but those only go so far. He needs a 2nd ring to have a place in the goat convo. A league MVP will also help. 

 

What really grinds my gears is that Cam Newton and now potentially Matt Ryan won an MVP but Brees hasn't. 

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11 minutes ago, mrblonde1984 said:

 

So Brady is just good? There's a difference between being good and one of the greatest of all time. The vibe you're giving off is that any QB put in Brady's position would have had similar success. But just like DMC vs Zeke, there's a huge difference because one player is elite and the other isn't. 

DMC was 28/29 (7-8 years older than zeke) and still rushed for over 1k yards in less than 250 carries.  DeMarco Murray did the same thing.  Zeke is on another talent level than these two yes, but the type of system these players are put in can make a big difference on their performance elite skills or not.  Brady still had to go out there and perform so I'm not taking that away from him but that system makes him a whole lot better.  Belichick was able to plug in backups and still win but until they get extensive time (longer than a few games and 1 season) we won't know for sure but from the sample size I've seen, I think they can do just as well.  Also, let's not forget the few asterisks next to those SB wins plus other nonsense but that's a whole other can of worms not worth getting into however, it does make a difference when you know a teams plays on both sides of the ball.

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9 minutes ago, Tenner said:

I wish. I could throw some stats out there...but those only go so far. He needs a 2nd ring to have a place in the goat convo. A league MVP will also help. 

 

What really grinds my gears is that Cam Newton and now potentially Matt Ryan won an MVP but Brees hasn't. 

 

Braes actually needs to have one of his 5000 yard seasons when the Saints are winning, something he has found difficult to do.  Cam's awesome 2015 season (35 passing TDs, 10 rushing TDs) led to a 15-1 record.  Ryan's has led to the #2 seed in the NFC.  Brees' peak seasons usually lead to 7-9 or 8-8 seasons, with the exception of 2011 when no one was beating out Rodgers that regular season (and no one was beating Eli that postseason ;)).

 

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18 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

 

like i said revisionist histrory in your part. they were not good for only a single a single year prior to belicheck taking the HC positioneven carroll took them to the playoffs and u sadly think teams are instantly made in a single year to be champions, they are not. The pats didnt suck before Brady became the starter, so nice try.

 

Then what happened in 1999 and 2000?

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19 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

 

Obviously you never understood the Parcells and Belicheck and their ability to build winning teams.  Belicheck helped Bill take the pats to the super bowl so like I said the pieces/framework of success were there when took the HC position.

Also if u knew anything about that team then u would have known that defense was solid, they won the game vs the colts not the offense

 

You're sounding like someone who only started following the NFL after Brady had already won titles.

 

For those of us who have followed BB and Parcells since the 1980s, we know better. 

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Shoe, Carroll took the Pats to the playoffs because he inherited Parcell's Super Bowl team. Once he drafted his players (Tebucky Jones, etc) and put his system in place, the team failed and he was fired. Generally speaking, coaches don't get fired if their teams are playoff teams like you say. And again, they went 8-8 in 1999 and 5-11 in 2000. By that point, there were only a few pieces left from the Parcells era. Again, as joshua pointed out, it sounds like you weren't even watching football at this time if you think that 2001 Patriots team was stacked.

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19 minutes ago, LeeVanCleef said:

Brady still had to go out there and perform so I'm not taking that away from him but that system makes him a whole lot better. 

Been saying the same thing, so not sure where we disagree. 

 

On a different note, was Joe Montana a system QB since Steve Young came in after him and had similar success? 

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54 minutes ago, Tenner said:

Each of those guys played with a ton of talent. And includes HOF players prolly. 

 

Thats 136 probowl players between the two of them. By comparison...Brees has had 11 during his time with the Saints. 

 

Brees had Tomlinson and Gates in their primes in SD as well - two top-5 all time players at their respective positions. 

 

There is no way he has had only 11 Pro Bowl teammates in his 11 season in NO. He had 11 during his first 6 seasons there alone. 

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13 minutes ago, mrblonde1984 said:

Been saying the same thing, so not sure where we disagree. 

 

On a different note, was Joe Montana a system QB since Steve Young came in after him and had similar success? 

 

To be fair, Montana had his best season in 1989 without Walsh, which was when the "system" criticism ended for him. 

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I should clarify: Brady and Manning have had players on their teams who, collectively, have accounted for 68 Pro Bowl seasons. So one player with multiple Pro Bowl appears counts multiple times. And the count includes offense, defense and special teams.

 

For example, Vinatieri and Gostkowski account for 5 of the 68 of "Brady's Pro Bowl teammates"

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12 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

Brees had Tomlinson and Gates in their primes in SD as well - two top-5 all time players at their respective positions. 

 

There is no way he has had only 11 Pro Bowl teammates in his 11 season in NO. He had 11 during his first 6 seasons there alone. 

Your right about that. I didn't hit the 'expand rows' button. 

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It should be said that this thread was bumped on the premise that Brady in 2016 had some kind of otherworldly, god-like season that indisputably vaulted him past Manning. He did not. He's not the odds on favorite to win the MVP and he didn't even lead the league in passer rating!  He probably won't be First-Team All-Pro either. To be sure, it was an awesome year, but it was one of like two dozen collectively put up by Brady and Manning.

 

So 2016 doesn't move the needle--yet. Bump this thread when/if Brady wins another Super Bowl MVP.

Edited by My Dinner With Andre

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3 minutes ago, My Dinner With Andre said:

It should be said that this thread was bumped on the premise that Brady in 2016 had some kind of otherworldly, god-like season that indisputably vaulted him past Manning. He did not. He's not the odds on favorite to win the MVP and he didn't even lead the league in passer rating!  He probably won't be First-Team All-Pro either. To be sure, it was an awesome year, but it was one of like two dozen collectively put up by Brady and Manning.

 

So 2016 doesn't move the needle--yet. Bump this thread when/if Brady wins another Super Bowl MVP.

 

He did it at age 39.  Peyton at age 39 was garbage to end the season, and then at age 40 the wheels completely fell off. So its still legit to discuss Brady's 2016 season.  Plus it puts him within striking distance of Peyton's "unassailable" regular season records of TD passes and yardage. 

 

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10 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

 Plus it puts him within striking distance of Peyton's "unassailable" regular season records of TD passes and yardage. 

 

He will prolly pass Manning in both catergories. But still may never have the record. 

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