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55 minutes ago, awesomeace said:

In between 49ers first and last super bowls the average margin of victory was 20 points, 12 different teams took up the 28 possible spots. In between the Patriots first and last super bowls the average margin of victory was 9.5 points, 18 different teams took up the 32 possible spots. Not to mention the constant roster turn over and new teams in the playoffs every year. But yeah, let's talk about how competitive it was back then.

 

What was the margin in the NFC Championship games that Montana played in?  That was the true championship back then.

 

There was a huge gap between the  AFC and NFC when Montana played.  The AFC was a joke.   Didn't the NFC win something like 16 super bowls in a row?

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1 hour ago, ChasinDatPaper said:

 

Exposed as being a Brady homer.

 

So why is it valid comparing Montana and Brady since both played in different era's

 

And this is where our "conversation" ends. Calling me a homer because I have Brady as the best ever - it's clear there's nothing that could be possibly said to you to change your mind on the issue. That's like calling someone a Bulls homer because they say Jordan is the best. 

 

By the way, the only one who has been "exposed" in this thread is you - as a nonsensical Brady hater who has posted nothing of substance to back up his statements.

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1 hour ago, ChasinDatPaper said:

No one will  ever pass Montana and Michael Jordan as GOATs of their sports. They dominated leagues in a competitive era. 

What so "uncompetitive" about this era? You could argue that the game was different back then and much more physical, but i could also argue the breed of athletes and scouting is 10x better now. The 49ers defense was no joke in that era too.

To say comparing montana and brady is "embarrassing" is stupid, and ignorant. If you cant recognize bradys greatness and what hes been able to achieve, with alot less then others had, then i question your takes on anything. It doesnt take a football genius to realize brady has cemented himself as 1B at the very worst to montanas 1A. Could easily be switched. Brady has never had close to the weapons that the 49ers had on defense or offense besides one year stints with certain players.

Im not saying one is better then the other, cause honestly i dont have a definitive answer right now, but im not naive to bradys greatness and what he has done.

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Another point to take into consideration is the development of athletes over time. Guys who dominated the competition physically decades ago (particularly at non qb) might not be able to compete with mid tier players in this day and age.

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16 hours ago, ChasinDatPaper said:

Brady should honeslty have 3 rings, two were given to him. 

How about Tuck Rule game?  

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Brady vs Montana is an interesting debate, simply on pure numbers its Brady, and dont give me this losing before you get to the Super Bowl is better than losing the Super Bowl.  

 

I watched Montana a lot, in person - have watched Brady a lot.  Knew football well in both eras.  Here are some thoughts, tips, etc. 

 

* They were very similar in that I think a lot of "fans" of the game, would probably not think they were even the best QB of that era, in the 80's most would consider Elway or Marino better pure QB's, if you saw the 30 for 30, Niners actually had brief discussion with Colts about trading Montana for Elway.  Brady has had a little bit of that too.  They have won the most, maybe had the most winning careers of the 80's, but for pure eyeball test, probably fans of both eras would say a few others were better. 

 

* Not only did Montana lose some title games and not get to as many SB's, he was benched and boo'd in the 87 Divisional game against the Vikings and had a really bad 3-game stretch in playoff years 85-87 was 0-3 with OTD 4 picks and a rating about 50 over those 3 seasons in the playoffs. 

 

* Tuck Rule - ironically benefited both in its interpretation or existence at the time.  The Brady fumble vs Oakland overturned, went on to win SB, in the 81 Championship game vs the Cowboys, after "the catch" Cowboys first play goes across midfield to like the 43-45 of the Niners, the tackle was actually also a horse collar which today would of been another 15 on top of that but wasnt a rule then and neither was tuck rule, and look at White's fumble on next play is pretty much identical to tuck rule of Brady.  

 

* Good Luck Bad Luck - Roger Craigs Fumble, the lousy PI call vs the Skins - maybe cost 49ers two more trips to SB, but Eddie Murray's miss, the Bengals secondary player who dropped sure pick down in Miami SB,  Brady obviously two recent SB wins "run the ball"...the Chargers defensive player who fumbled a pick to give Pats second life ended up in a title game appearance. 

 

* Incredible help by team - Vinatieri's clutch kicks those first 3 SB's, the 49ers famed goal line stand in their first Sb. 

 

* Salary Cap, Free Agency a factor now, but in Montana's mid 80's 49ers lost some guys to competing USFL.  

 

* Divisions and comp - I think Montana's Conference was tougher, had to go against Belichek's defenses with the Giants, had that great Bears team, had the Gibbs Skins and last days of Landry's Cowboys before they fell off in mid 80's, Division was pretty tough too, Rams and Dickerson early to mid years, towards the end those Mora Saints with the great linebackers and Rams were still relevant.  

 

I think both are amont the greatest careers for a QB to ever play, not sure either are the greatest QBs ever, in terms of just pure ability, but cant argue with their storied careers.  I think comparing careers, Brady's is better.  

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23 minutes ago, parrothead said:

Brady vs Montana is an interesting debate, simply on pure numbers its Brady, and dont give me this losing before you get to the Super Bowl is better than losing the Super Bowl.  

 

I watched Montana a lot, in person - have watched Brady a lot.  Knew football well in both eras.  Here are some thoughts, tips, etc. 

 

* They were very similar in that I think a lot of "fans" of the game, would probably not think they were even the best QB of that era, in the 80's most would consider Elway or Marino better pure QB's, if you saw the 30 for 30, Niners actually had brief discussion with Colts about trading Montana for Elway.  Brady has had a little bit of that too.  They have won the most, maybe had the most winning careers of the 80's, but for pure eyeball test, probably fans of both eras would say a few others were better. 

 

* Not only did Montana lose some title games and not get to as many SB's, he was benched and boo'd in the 87 Divisional game against the Vikings and had a really bad 3-game stretch in playoff years 85-87 was 0-3 with OTD 4 picks and a rating about 50 over those 3 seasons in the playoffs. 

 

* Tuck Rule - ironically benefited both in its interpretation or existence at the time.  The Brady fumble vs Oakland overturned, went on to win SB, in the 81 Championship game vs the Cowboys, after "the catch" Cowboys first play goes across midfield to like the 43-45 of the Niners, the tackle was actually also a horse collar which today would of been another 15 on top of that but wasnt a rule then and neither was tuck rule, and look at White's fumble on next play is pretty much identical to tuck rule of Brady.  

 

* Good Luck Bad Luck - Roger Craigs Fumble, the lousy PI call vs the Skins - maybe cost 49ers two more trips to SB, but Eddie Murray's miss, the Bengals secondary player who dropped sure pick down in Miami SB,  Brady obviously two recent SB wins "run the ball"...the Chargers defensive player who fumbled a pick to give Pats second life ended up in a title game appearance. 

 

* Incredible help by team - Vinatieri's clutch kicks those first 3 SB's, the 49ers famed goal line stand in their first Sb. 

 

* Salary Cap, Free Agency a factor now, but in Montana's mid 80's 49ers lost some guys to competing USFL.  

 

* Divisions and comp - I think Montana's Conference was tougher, had to go against Belichek's defenses with the Giants, had that great Bears team, had the Gibbs Skins and last days of Landry's Cowboys before they fell off in mid 80's, Division was pretty tough too, Rams and Dickerson early to mid years, towards the end those Mora Saints with the great linebackers and Rams were still relevant.  

 

I think both are amont the greatest careers for a QB to ever play, not sure either are the greatest QBs ever, in terms of just pure ability, but cant argue with their storied careers.  I think comparing careers, Brady's is better.  

 

Wow, after having to read some other people's "insights" in this thread, this post is such a huge breath of fresh air. Like going from a picture book to a novel. Bravo.

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2 hours ago, 96mnc said:

 

What was the margin in the NFC Championship games that Montana played in?  That was the true championship back then.

 

There was a huge gap between the  AFC and NFC when Montana played.  The AFC was a joke.   Didn't the NFC win something like 16 super bowls in a row?

The margin of victory of the NFC Championship game from that time period was still 15ppg

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1 hour ago, jbshaw said:

Another point to take into consideration is the development of athletes over time. Guys who dominated the competition physically decades ago (particularly at non qb) might not be able to compete with mid tier players in this day and age.

 

That's why performance relative to era /environment to be accounted for when having "best of all time" arguments.  That's a major part of any argument for Montana as he's only one of two guys in the top 10 all time in qb rating that didn't play the majority of their career in the 2000s or later.

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1 hour ago, parrothead said:

Brady vs Montana is an interesting debate, simply on pure numbers its Brady, and dont give me this losing before you get to the Super Bowl is better than losing the Super Bowl.  

 

I watched Montana a lot, in person - have watched Brady a lot.  Knew football well in both eras.  Here are some thoughts, tips, etc. 

 

* They were very similar in that I think a lot of "fans" of the game, would probably not think they were even the best QB of that era, in the 80's most would consider Elway or Marino better pure QB's, if you saw the 30 for 30, Niners actually had brief discussion with Colts about trading Montana for Elway.  Brady has had a little bit of that too.  They have won the most, maybe had the most winning careers of the 80's, but for pure eyeball test, probably fans of both eras would say a few others were better. 

 

* Not only did Montana lose some title games and not get to as many SB's, he was benched and boo'd in the 87 Divisional game against the Vikings and had a really bad 3-game stretch in playoff years 85-87 was 0-3 with OTD 4 picks and a rating about 50 over those 3 seasons in the playoffs. 

 

* Tuck Rule - ironically benefited both in its interpretation or existence at the time.  The Brady fumble vs Oakland overturned, went on to win SB, in the 81 Championship game vs the Cowboys, after "the catch" Cowboys first play goes across midfield to like the 43-45 of the Niners, the tackle was actually also a horse collar which today would of been another 15 on top of that but wasnt a rule then and neither was tuck rule, and look at White's fumble on next play is pretty much identical to tuck rule of Brady.  

 

* Good Luck Bad Luck - Roger Craigs Fumble, the lousy PI call vs the Skins - maybe cost 49ers two more trips to SB, but Eddie Murray's miss, the Bengals secondary player who dropped sure pick down in Miami SB,  Brady obviously two recent SB wins "run the ball"...the Chargers defensive player who fumbled a pick to give Pats second life ended up in a title game appearance. 

 

* Incredible help by team - Vinatieri's clutch kicks those first 3 SB's, the 49ers famed goal line stand in their first Sb. 

 

* Salary Cap, Free Agency a factor now, but in Montana's mid 80's 49ers lost some guys to competing USFL.  

 

* Divisions and comp - I think Montana's Conference was tougher, had to go against Belichek's defenses with the Giants, had that great Bears team, had the Gibbs Skins and last days of Landry's Cowboys before they fell off in mid 80's, Division was pretty tough too, Rams and Dickerson early to mid years, towards the end those Mora Saints with the great linebackers and Rams were still relevant.  

 

I think both are amont the greatest careers for a QB to ever play, not sure either are the greatest QBs ever, in terms of just pure ability, but cant argue with their storied careers.  I think comparing careers, Brady's is better.  

 

Nice.   Not sure I agree with the end conclusion but I can't disagree with it either.  I nominate you for Rotoworld forum football historian. ;)

 

Couple of random thoughts -

 

I'll have to look and see who those defeats in the playoffs in 85 to 87 were (other than the Vikes as you mentioned).

 

I know this,  you weren't winning a Super Bowl in the 80s or 90s if you had an obvious flaw on your team.  The teams were too stacked.

 

I know their loss in 1990 was to the Giants.  That defense was vicious.  Physically broke Montana on a hit that would probably be illegal now.

 

Your better pure QB comment - do you mean pure passer?  Because I'd agree that Marino and Elway were better in the 80s.  Manning better than Brady now and an argument could be made for prime Brees.  Probably forgetting one in the 2000s as well (Warner?).  But a better "pure QB" conversation inevitably leads to how to you define pure QB.

 

FWIW Troy Aikman was one of the greatest pure passers I've ever seen.  Cannon, pinpoint accuracy, could throw with pace and touch to any point on the field.  Bill Walsh called him the perfect passer.

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27 minutes ago, awesomeace said:

The margin of victory of the NFC Championship game from that time period was still 15ppg

 

Wow, that's shocking to me.

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2 hours ago, vikingapocalypse said:

What so "uncompetitive" about this era? You could argue that the game was different back then and much more physical, but i could also argue the breed of athletes and scouting is 10x better now. The 49ers defense was no joke in that era too.

 

The athletes are clearly better now.  

 

There competition is what it is, still the best in the world playing at the highest level possible.  I don't think this era is "less competitive" necessarily.  I do think that the overall collective quality of play is absolutely putrid now though.   That's due to the salary cap robbing teams of depth (which robs young players of development time and puts them on the field before they are ready) and continuity.  The restrictions on practice time are killers as well. 

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13 minutes ago, 96mnc said:

 

Wow, that's shocking to me.

 

The NFC only dominated super bowls starting with Montana's 3rd championship game in the 84 season. 

 

The only NFC title game that was competitive in the late 80s was the 87 game bt MIN and WAS. The 84, 85, 86, 88, and 89 games were all blowouts. 

 

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13 minutes ago, 96mnc said:

 

Nice.   Not sure I agree with the end conclusion but I can't disagree with it either.  I nominate you for Rotoworld forum football historian. ;)

 

Couple of random thoughts -

 

I'll have to look and see who those defeats in the playoffs in 85 to 87 were (other than the Vikes as you mentioned).

 

I know this,  you weren't winning a Super Bowl in the 80s or 90s if you had an obvious flaw on your team.  The teams were too stacked.

 

I know their loss in 1990 was to the Giants.  That defense was vicious.  Physically broke Montana on a hit that would probably be illegal now.

 

Your better pure QB comment - do you mean pure passer?  Because I'd agree that Marino and Elway were better in the 80s.  Manning better than Brady now and an argument could be made for prime Brees.  Probably forgetting one in the 2000s as well (Warner?).  But a better "pure QB" conversation inevitably leads to how to you define pure QB.

 

FWIW Troy Aikman was one of the greatest pure passers I've ever seen.  Cannon, pinpoint accuracy, could throw with pace and touch to any point on the field.  Bill Walsh called him the perfect passer.

85 and 86 were both to Giants.  One is the famous Burt play, where Montana was knocked out and threw pick 6 down the sidelines (might of been LT with the pick 6)  the other was a blowout like 45-3 or something, but a lot of NIner fans will claim that if Rice hand not fumbled what looked like a breakaway TD in that game it might of been a different game (not sure I buy that in such a blowout)  So vs the Pacells - Belichek Giants, he was 0-3.  

 

HIs Championship games:

* 1 point win over Cowboys in "the catch" game, had lousy game threw 3 picks but had clutch TD

* Lost by 3 to Skins, think they were down and rallied to tie then lost on a field goal set up by controversial PI call on flea flicker I believe 

* 84 Beat Bears pretty sound like 20-0 

* 88 Beat bears in Chicago, freezing temps not a closer game as I recall

* 89 Crushed Rams

* 90 Lost to Giants on Craig fumble 

* Lost not a close game to Bills

 

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1 minute ago, parrothead said:

85 and 86 were both to Giants.  One is the famous Burt play, where Montana was knocked out and threw pick 6 down the sidelines (might of been LT with the pick 6)  the other was a blowout like 45-3 or something, but a lot of NIner fans will claim that if Rice hand not fumbled what looked like a breakaway TD in that game it might of been a different game (not sure I buy that in such a blowout)  So vs the Pacells - Belichek Giants, he was 0-3.  

 

HIs Championship games:

* 1 point win over Cowboys in "the catch" game, had lousy game threw 3 picks but had clutch TD

* Lost by 3 to Skins, think they were down and rallied to tie then lost on a field goal set up by controversial PI call on flea flicker I believe 

* 84 Beat Bears pretty sound like 20-0 

* 88 Beat bears in Chicago, freezing temps not a closer game as I recall

* 89 Crushed Rams

* 90 Lost to Giants on Craig fumble 

* Lost not a close game to Bills

 

 

Montana also beat the Giants in the 81 and 84 playoffs pretty convincingly. 

 

The 85 and 86 losses were by a combined 66-6 score. Walsh was scared of the Giants in the playoffs which is why he tanked the 88 season finale to ensure the Giants (10-6 that year) wouldn't make the playoffs over the Rams. 

 

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5 minutes ago, joshua18 said:

 

Montana also beat the Giants in the 81 and 84 playoffs pretty convincingly. 

 

The 85 and 86 losses were by a combined 66-6 score. Walsh was scared of the Giants in the playoffs which is why he tanked the 88 season finale to ensure the Giants (10-6 that year) wouldn't make the playoffs over the Rams. 

 

Yep, although 81 was Ray Perkins.  84 might of been the NIners most dominating team, they went 15-1

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Brady won his 5 SB with his defenses averaging 26PPG allowed

 

Montana won his 4 SB with his defenses averaging 18 PPG allowed 

 

Peyton won his 2 SB with his defenses averaging 13 PPG allowed

 

Brady 15:5 TD/INT ratio in 7 games

Manning 3:5 TD/INT ratio in 4 games

 

Stop.

 

 

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8 hours ago, vikingapocalypse said:

What so "uncompetitive" about this era? You could argue that the game was different back then and much more physical, but i could also argue the breed of athletes and scouting is 10x better now. The 49ers defense was no joke in that era too.

To say comparing montana and brady is "embarrassing" is stupid, and ignorant. If you cant recognize bradys greatness and what hes been able to achieve, with alot less then others had, then i question your takes on anything. It doesnt take a football genius to realize brady has cemented himself as 1B at the very worst to montanas 1A. Could easily be switched. Brady has never had close to the weapons that the 49ers had on defense or offense besides one year stints with certain players.

Im not saying one is better then the other, cause honestly i dont have a definitive answer right now, but im not naive to bradys greatness and what he has done.

The only teams worth a damn in this era in the afc were the ravens colts steelers other than the pats . None were great . Those teams montana beat were GREAT ballclubs !!

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1 hour ago, footballpimp said:

Brady won his 5 SB with his defenses averaging 26PPG allowed

 

Montana won his 4 SB with his defenses averaging 18 PPG allowed 

 

Peyton won his 2 SB with his defenses averaging 13 PPG allowed

 

Brady 15:5 TD/INT ratio in 7 games

Manning 3:5 TD/INT ratio in 4 games

 

Stop.

 

 

 

 

Different era, sir. You can score more now. You are not allowed to play defense in todays era.

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12 minutes ago, ChasinDatPaper said:

 

 

Different era, sir. You can score more now. You are not allowed to play defense in todays era.

 

2016 average PPG per team was 22.7

1985 average PPG per team was 21.5

 

In each of Montana's 4 SBs, he had one of the best defenses in the league as well.

1981-#2 

1984- #1

1988-#8

1999-#3

 

Edited by footballpimp
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2 hours ago, footballpimp said:

Brady won his 5 SB with his defenses averaging 26PPG allowed

 

Montana won his 4 SB with his defenses averaging 18 PPG allowed 

 

Peyton won his 2 SB with his defenses averaging 13 PPG allowed

 

Brady 15:5 TD/INT ratio in 7 games

Manning 3:5 TD/INT ratio in 4 games

 

Stop.

 

 

 

I'm assuming that's the average points allowed for just the Super Bowl games, not the season, correct?

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1 hour ago, footballpimp said:

 

2016 average PPG per team was 22.7

1985 average PPG per team was 21.5

 

In each of Montana's 4 SBs, he had one of the best defenses in the league as well.

1981-#2 

1984- #1

1988-#8

1999-#3

 

 

Couple of questions -

 

Is that defensive rating based on points allowed or yards allowed?

 

And what were the Pats rankings for their SB teams?  Weren't they #1 in points allowed this year?

 

And to be fair you should probably list the league average ppg for the other relevant seasons.  Not sure why you picked 85 alone, a season that the 49ers didn't win the SB.

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On 2/7/2017 at 11:09 PM, mrblonde1984 said:

 

Can you post your top 5 QBs of all time please? Here's mine...

 

Brady

Manning

Montana

Marino

Elway

 

16 hours ago, shakestreet said:

 

my top 5

Brady

Montana

Peyton

Marino

Favre

 

-----------

 

 

 

15 hours ago, joshua18 said:

Brady

Montana

Peyton

Unitas

Graham

Favre

Marino

Elway

Brees

Bradshaw

 

my homer sense is tingling. i can't help but feel rodgers is being slighted here. i ain't gonna argue him over brady, montana, or payton but from there he's in the convo. i loved me some farve and marino as they led my fave teams as well but i came to the conclusion a few years back rodgers is better than both of them were. i guess the longevity isn't there yet and sitting for those early years hurts him in accumulative stats and may always hinder him in a race with the greats but, man, does he ever pass the eye test

 

i truly think he is the best qb i have seen in certain aspects. he likely never will be as acclaimed as the top three but a lot of that won't be his fault (team game, sitting those years, etc.). i can say without a doubt he is the most accurate thrower of the long ball i have ever seen, even better than marino. his mobility adds a dimension that marino, farve, brady and manning didn't have and serves his great arm tremendously at times. his only blight is holding onto the ball too long as he has done that his whole career though this year with a good line it seemed to work out often as it was almost like they had plays called for wrs to scramble and get open after an eternity of time. it does kind of protect his efficiency and limit his ints, though sacks can be plentiful on him at times. i'll end my gushing here and just presume he makes the convo in a number of seasons, health permitting.

 

on a side note, how come the three great qbs of my teams during my lifetime are all notorious arrogant jerks? i'll just chalk it up to being a trait that drives them. you brady fans got a real boyscout who is easy to love. my father-in-law is a pilot and was recently flying with a pilot who used to fly around brady and his wife. that pilot said even with all the fame and money the two are some of the kindest people he ever flew. very respectful (refers to pilot as "sir") and always showing good manners (saying "please" and "thank you" to the crew) even when no one is looking

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7 hours ago, Packdog said:

 

 

my homer sense is tingling. i can't help but feel rodgers is being slighted here. i ain't gonna argue him over brady, montana, or payton but from there he's in the convo. i loved me some farve and marino as they led my fave teams as well but i came to the conclusion a few years back rodgers is better than both of them were. i guess the longevity isn't there yet and sitting for those early years hurts him in accumulative stats and may always hinder him in a race with the greats but, man, does he ever pass the eye test

 

i truly think he is the best qb i have seen in certain aspects. he likely never will be as acclaimed as the top three but a lot of that won't be his fault (team game, sitting those years, etc.). i can say without a doubt he is the most accurate thrower of the long ball i have ever seen, even better than marino. his mobility adds a dimension that marino, farve, brady and manning didn't have and serves his great arm tremendously at times. his only blight is holding onto the ball too long as he has done that his whole career though this year with a good line it seemed to work out often as it was almost like they had plays called for wrs to scramble and get open after an eternity of time. it does kind of protect his efficiency and limit his ints, though sacks can be plentiful on him at times. i'll end my gushing here and just presume he makes the convo in a number of seasons, health permitting.

 

on a side note, how come the three great qbs of my teams during my lifetime are all notorious arrogant jerks? i'll just chalk it up to being a trait that drives them. you brady fans got a real boyscout who is easy to love. my father-in-law is a pilot and was recently flying with a pilot who used to fly around brady and his wife. that pilot said even with all the fame and money the two are some of the kindest people he ever flew. very respectful (refers to pilot as "sir") and always showing good manners (saying "please" and "thank you" to the crew) even when no one is looking

Aaron Rodgers sits right outside my top 5 the dude is remarkable. Aaron is a great one who will win a lot more games. When the career of Aaron Rodgers is over and if things keep going as is Rodgers could easily move into the top 5 and maybe supplant Peyton/Montana.....the Green Bay organization needs to step up and bring in some people who give the packers a better chance to get to the big game over n over.....

 

good family values were taught in the Brady family when Tom was a young boy 

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1 hour ago, shakestreet said:

Aaron Rodgers sits right outside my top 5 the dude is remarkable. Aaron is a great one who will win a lot more games. When the career of Aaron Rodgers is over and if things keep going as is Rodgers could easily move into the top 5 and maybe supplant Peyton/Montana.....the Green Bay organization needs to step up and bring in some people who give the packers a better chance to get to the big game over n over.....

 

good family values were taught in the Brady family when Tom was a young boy 

 

If Rodgers gets one more ring I'll instantly move him past Peyton and not think twice about it.  But he needs to get that ring IMO.

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