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Try answering without trying (and failing) to look cool with a dumb meme or gif.

If you think posting gifs makes someone look cool, you have a very low bar for coolness. B)

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Try answering without trying (and failing) to look cool with a dumb meme or gif.

If you think posting gifs makes someone look cool, you have a very low bar for coolness. B)

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I sort of blew off your reply because it was silly, you seem to get a bit emotional about your hometown team.

Please explain how points allowed is better than total yards allowed when measuring a defense, when there are so many factors

Yards against is a valuable fantasy stat, since yards against is how most fantasy scoring happens. Points against, or average points against is what I'd use as a simple measure of NFL defenses.

Total Yards has many factors, the most common one being that a good defense will play prevent near the end of games in order to win. Thus teams can rack up yards against a good defense, but not necessary points.

I think you know all of this.

Just to give you an example, the 2000 Ravens were second in "Team Defense" aka total yards given up that year. They were first in points against. Now were the Ravens the second best defense in 2000, or first? At some point we can just use the eye test too, I watched the 2000 Ravens and yes they were the best defense in the league.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2000/opp.htm

That can give you an idea of how misleading yards against can be.

To bring it back to Brady vs Manning, Brady's early career success came mostly due to his coach and defense. Manning dragged one of the worst defensive units ever to a superbowl win.

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mrblonde1984 wrote:
Denver was the best defense when measured by yards allowed but just 4th in points allowed. I don't think there is anyone who would argue Denver had the 4th best defense last year...they were clearly the best defense.


If you watched the whole season, and not just the playoffs you'd realize that Denver probably wasn't the best all season long.

They dominated the playoffs. Why? They got their injured players back. That's not an indictment on ppg against, if anything it shows how accurate of a measure it is of season long performance vs yards.

mrblonde1984 wrote:
If you can't see the flaw in measuring a defense by just looking at points allowed, then you are in the minority.

Pretending your position is in the majority is intellectually dishonest unless you can prove it. Even if you can prove it, being on the bandwagon doesn't mean your argument is valid or correct.

While we're at it, pro-football-reference defaults to points against when you look for defensive statistics, for what it's worth:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2000/opp.htm

mrblonde1984 wrote:
Adam Vinatieri scored all of their points against the Ravens.


LOL. You really want to eliminate Vinatieri when discussing Brady vs Manning?

Ok, Lets eliminate all Adam Vinatieri points from history. Brady now has 1 Superbowl.

mrblonde1984 wrote:
Yeah, Manning's 250 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT in the Super Bowl really carried the team.


You are once again evaluating a players season for one game. Kind of like you evaluate players careers based on a small subset of games. I guess it's part of the overall bandwagon mentality I referred to earlier.

mrblonde1984 wrote:
But I forgot, playoffs and Super Bowls don't matter to Iron-Cock.


They matter, the way other games matter. Perhaps a bit more due to the elevated level of competition, but that can vary from year to year.

Like my fantasy players, I evaluate players based on a multitude of factors. I won't judge a player by only their teams success or failure simply because it's a team game.

Most people realize this, somehow they become irrational when it comes to quarterbacks. I think its mostly due to the influence of the talk radio crowd.

mrblonde1984 wrote:
This probably explains why you can root for the Jets.


I haven't bothered with anything insulting towards you or Pats fans in this thread. It's funny how hard you're working to derail the conversation from Manning vs Brady.

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Iron-Cock, you're so out of line with the Brady vs. Manning weapons argument it's laughable.

You get so offended when someone disagrees with your opinion about your hometown QB. It's ok, relax.

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Iron-Cock, you're so out of line with the Brady vs. Manning weapons argument it's laughable.

You get so offended when someone disagrees with your opinion about your hometown QB. It's ok, relax.

It's not being offended, it's more laughing at and pointing out to the others someone with a clear bias against the Patriots and Brady, who is trying to come off as some neutral voice of reason in the Brady-Manning debate. I think some of your "reasons" are in fact just a desperate attempt to troll the Patriots fans here because of your obvious hatred toward them. It's not my fault you get your green undies in a bunch when someone challenges your way of thinking. Just because someone disagrees with you and voices that in a response doesn't mean they are "offended" or need to "relax."

I've already stated that I'm biased toward Brady BECAUSE I'm a Patriots fan. But I also gave legitimate reasons and facts why I think he is better. I choose to acknowledge the playoffs and Super Bowl in this debate, you choose to ignore them, or just deflect all credit to the Patriots defense.

It's hilarious how you say Moss elevated Brady, which he probably did, but refuse to acknowledge that Brady has won more with less than Manning his whole career. Again, who were David Patten, David Givens, Wes Welker, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell without Brady? Did those WRs elevate Brady too? Manning has never had to play with average WRs in his entire career. Again, the day Manning makes it to the AFC Championship with Caldwell as his WR1 is the day you can convince me Brady doesn't elevate the players around him.

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There's so much to respond to, it's ridiculous. As for "eliminating Vinatieri," there was never a game in the playoffs where Adam had to kick 5 fgs to bail out his offense and QB. I will agree though that Brady having Vinatieri over Vanderjack or however you spell his name was an advantage over Manning. I believe I even referenced that earlier in this thread.

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As for Denver's defense, if YOU watched you would have noticed exactly what I was talking about. How many pick sixes did Manning throw early in the season that simply ended up being "points allowed" by Denver's defense. It was pretty evident they had the best defense last year up until injuries caught up with them, then they got healthy and played the way they had been playing to start the year. I think points allowed is one way to measure a defense, but flawed. Total yards allowed is a better indicator because the offense and special teams can't give up yards...it's all on the defense.

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As for the playoffs and championships mattering, I've said it once and I'll say it again: When comparing two of the greatest to play, it should be considered. Quarterback is arguably the most important position in all of sports. To say I'm just following what they say on talk radio is not only inaccurate but condescending. How many teams have won a championship with bad QB play? In order to do so, you need a dominate, historic defesne. Why is that? It's because the QB position is so key. There's a reason why teams like the Browns are losing every year: They don't have a QB.

Actually, I'd like you to elaborate more on that. It seems your stance is that the QB position is not important. Please explain that.

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I didn't think that pick 6's counted on the total points allowed as a defensive stat. It doesn't make sense to add that to a defensive stat.

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I didn't think that pick 6's counted on the total points allowed as a defensive stat. It doesn't make sense to add that to a defensive stat.

I'm pretty sure all points allowed are counted. Meaning pick sixes, fumble returns, punt returns, kick returns, safeties and blocked kicks that are returned. If not, then I apologize and agree that points allowed is a better indicator of a team's overall defense than I originally thought. I still like total yards allowex better though because the defense can still be put in a horrible field position scenario through no fault of their own.

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I'm pretty sure all points allowed are counted. Meaning pick sixes, fumble returns, punt returns, kick returns, safeties and blocked kicks that are returned. If not, then I apologize and agree that points allowed is a better indicator of a team's overall defense than I originally thought. I still like total yards allowex better though because the defense can still be put in a horrible field position scenario through no fault of their own.

Good defenses give up more garbage time yards than they lose points to pick sixes/fumble returns for TDs (a fairly rare event).

To bring it back to the 2006 colts, Manning threw two pick sixes that season which resulted in a .75 PPG increase if it's even counted. So no that doesn't make PPG inaccurate. You're talking about a 3% or less difference if its even counted.

To contrast that with team defense, if a team gives up a meager 50 yards in garbage time every game, over the course of the season it's 800 yards or about a 17% increase.

"Yards" isn't really a good stat to judge a defense by in real life, after all you don't win games by out "yarding" the other team, you win by outscoring the other team.

Edited by Iron-cock

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Yes, but other factors like poor field position can also play a factor in points allowed. I think the garbage time stuff is interesting, but you said every game, and as we all know teams aren't giving up garbage time yards every game.

All that aside, I think it's ridiculous to discredit Brady for his first 3 Super Bowls because he had good defenses. The defense and special teams carried him his first year when they beat the Rams, but come on. Bad QBs don't win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, including back to back. Is that really what you're trying to argue, IC? It's frustrating that you credit Brady's defense for his first 3 titles and the coaching decision to not run Lynch for Brady's 4th. You really believe Brady is a product of having good defenses and...luck?

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Yes, but other factors like poor field position can also play a factor in points allowed. I think the garbage time stuff is interesting, but you said every game, and as we all know teams aren't giving up garbage time yards every game.

All that aside, I think it's ridiculous to discredit Brady for his first 3 Super Bowls because he had good defenses. The defense and special teams carried him his first year when they beat the Rams, but come on. Bad QBs don't win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, including back to back. Is that really what you're trying to argue, IC? It's frustrating that you credit Brady's defense for his first 3 titles and the coaching decision to not run Lynch for Brady's 4th. You really believe Brady is a product of having good defenses and...luck?

And yet just about everyone does that to Terry Bradshaw. It is wrong, of course. Overall I look at it as Manning had to do more with less. When both had the pieces around them they finished and that is what ultimately counts.

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Yes, but other factors like poor field position can also play a factor in points allowed. I think the garbage time stuff is interesting, but you said every game, and as we all know teams aren't giving up garbage time yards every game.

All that aside, I think it's ridiculous to discredit Brady for his first 3 Super Bowls because he had good defenses. The defense and special teams carried him his first year when they beat the Rams, but come on. Bad QBs don't win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, including back to back. Is that really what you're trying to argue, IC? It's frustrating that you credit Brady's defense for his first 3 titles and the coaching decision to not run Lynch for Brady's 4th. You really believe Brady is a product of having good defenses and...luck?

And yet just about everyone does that to Terry Bradshaw. It is wrong, of course. Overall I look at it as Manning had to do more with less. When both had the pieces around them they finished and that is what ultimately counts.

Bradshaw wasn't an elite QB until he had already won 2 SBs. The only SB where Brady wasn't elite was 2001 and even then he led he GW drive against the #2 defense in the NFL to win SB MVP.

Bradshaw also had FAR more help than Brady ever did - 2 HOF WRs, HOF RB and OL. Brady didn't get a HOF WR until he had already won 3 SBs and 2 SB MVPs, and has never had a HOF RB.

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The Bradshaw hate I can't understand because it was a different era. I didn't get to watch him play but I can't imagine teams threw the ball as much as they did today or even in the 90s and late 80s.

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"Manning dragged one of the worst defensive units ever to a superbowl win."

Don't EVER listen to fanboys. The Colts defense in '06 was dominant. In the 1st two rounds of the playoffs, they gave up 14 total points and 387 combined yards of total offense. Freeney & Mathis were the '06 version of Miller & Ware. Unblockable.

Here are some of Manning's playoff gems:

- lost to Jets, who didn't even make the Super Bowl, 41-0

- threw 4 interceptions in a 24-14 loss to the Patriots

- couldn't find the end zone in a 20-3 loss to the Patriots

- threw the sealing interception in the red zone in a Super Bowl loss to the Saints

- the Seahawks massacre

Manning isn't in the same conversation as Brady. Montana is in the conversation with Brady. Manning is in the conversation with Favre and Marino. Guys who were great in the regular season but sucked in the playoffs.

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"Manning dragged one of the worst defensive units ever to a superbowl win."

Don't EVER listen to fanboys. The Colts defense in '06 was dominant. In the 1st two rounds of the playoffs, they gave up 14 total points and 387 combined yards of total offense. Freeney & Mathis were the '06 version of Miller & Ware. Unblockable.

Here are some of Manning's playoff gems:

- lost to Jets, who didn't even make the Super Bowl, 41-0

- threw 4 interceptions in a 24-14 loss to the Patriots

- couldn't find the end zone in a 20-3 loss to the Patriots

- threw the sealing interception in the red zone in a Super Bowl loss to the Saints

- the Seahawks massacre

Manning isn't in the same conversation as Brady. Montana is in the conversation with Brady. Manning is in the conversation with Favre and Marino. Guys who were great in the regular season but sucked in the playoffs.

Good advice....we'll tune you out from now on then.

"In the debate over which quarterback has had the greater career, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, the postseason stats are remarkably similar.

-Passer rating, the NFL’s flawed but still useful formula to put one number on a quarterback’s all-around passing performance, gives Manning a career postseason mark of 88.1. Brady’s career postseason passer rating is 88.0.

-Less than one percentage point separates the two quarterbacks’ career postseason completion percentages: Manning has completed 63.35 percent of his postseason passes, while Brady has completed 62.38 percent of his postseason passes.

-Brady and Manning are 1-2 in NFL history in postseason attempts, completions and yards. Brady has thrown 1,183 passes in the playoffs while Manning has thrown 1,004. No one else has even thrown 800.

- Brady has completed 738 passes in the postseason while Manning has completed 636. No one else has completed even 500. Brady has 7,957 passing yards in the postseason while Manning has 7,198. No one else even has 6,000 postseason passing yards.

-Brady has 56 postseason touchdowns and 28 interceptions. Manning has 40 postseason touchdowns and 24 interceptions. Manning has averaged 7.17 yards per passing attempt in the postseason. Brady has averaged 6.73.

Which player has played better in the playoffs? Statistically, it’s a wash."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/01/26/brady-peyton-have-remarkably-similar-postseason-stats/

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Impreza, anyone who focuses on stats is either a kid or an idiot. I'm not calling you either one of those, since I don't know what you focus on, I'm just stating a fact.

Brady wins big games. Manning doesn't. Manning's defense wins big games, but he doesn't. Two years ago, Brady led two 4th quarter TD drives against a Seahawks defense that was #1 in the league in points & yards allowed by a wide margin. Two clutch TD drives against one of the best defenses ever. Last year, in the AFC Championship, Brady leads a clutch 4th quarter TD drive against the Broncos, the #1 D in the league and one of the best ever when healthy. Brady is a legend. Manning has a big head. Literally.

If you are a little kid or an idiot, keep in mind that Manning got his stats while playing with the best supporting cast any quarterback has ever had. Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Demaryius Thomas, Wes Welker, Eric Decker, Dallas Clark, and Julius Thomas. Brady put up 34 points in the playoffs against that dominant Colts defense I talked about last post while his top 2 receivers were Jabbar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell. Brady is a legend. Manning has a big head. Literally.

Edited by Shinobi88

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When you can't defend your position, resort to calling others names. Excellent argument.

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There's an odor of low IQ in this forum. I tell about Brady leading 3 clutch 4th quarter TD drives in the playoffs the last 2 years against statistically 2 of the best defenses in NFL history and I "can't defend my position." Maybe I should've pointed out Manning's 3 touchdown passes in his last 4 postseason games. No, not worth it.

Edited by Shinobi88

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Impreza, anyone who focuses on stats is either a kid or an idiot. I'm not calling you either one of those, since I don't know what you focus on, I'm just stating a fact.

Brady wins big games. Manning doesn't. Manning's defense wins big games, but he doesn't. Two years ago, Brady led two 4th quarter TD drives against a Seahawks defense that was #1 in the league in points & yards allowed by a wide margin. Two clutch TD drives against one of the best defenses ever. Last year, in the AFC Championship, Brady leads a clutch 4th quarter TD drive against the Broncos, the #1 D in the league and one of the best ever when healthy. Brady is a legend. Manning has a big head. Literally.

If you are a little kid or an idiot, keep in mind that Manning got his stats while playing with the best supporting cast any quarterback has ever had. Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Demaryius Thomas, Wes Welker, Eric Decker, Dallas Clark, and Julius Thomas. Brady put up 34 points in the playoffs against that dominant Colts defense I talked about last post while his top 2 receivers were Jabbar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell. Brady is a legend. Manning has a big head. Literally.

This is one of the worst posts I have ever read.

You have so many valid points, yet you insist on preceding each paragraph with banality and insult.

Your needless jabs at Impreza have literally stifled an otherwise active thread.

Good job.

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