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1 hour ago, cashvillesent said:

A lack of talent has not been an issue for Brady and his supporting cast. He has played with a number of HoF types, has always had a consistently good line, good RBs and good WRs.

 

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10 hours ago, Gohawks said:

Leave it to a Patriots fan to compare a QB ranking to an actual scientific fact. 
 

Brady fans are a ******** cult man... 

 

Probably also kiss their kids on the mouth. 


Bruh I couldn't have made that a more obvious trolling comment lol

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6 hours ago, cashvillesent said:

A lack of talent has not been an issue for Brady and his supporting cast. He has played with a number of HoF types, has always had a consistently good line, good RBs and good WRs.


Randy Moss for about 2 seasons, Gronk for about 7 (he missed about 2 seasons worth of games due to various injuries), Welker/Edelman if you want to count them as a HOF type I guess? Best RB Brady had was Kevin Faulk and he never even made a pro-bowl.

 

Meanwhile Manning had: Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Demaryius Thomas, and Emmanuel Sanders. Not even going to mention the TEs.

 

Is this a joke? Whenever Brady had comparable talent on offense he won MVP awards just like buddy boy Peyton lol.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, sSektor said:


Randy Moss for about 2 seasons, Gronk for about 7 (he missed about 2 seasons worth of games due to various injuries), Welker/Edelman if you want to count them as a HOF type I guess? Best RB Brady had was Kevin Faulk and he never even made a pro-bowl.

 

Meanwhile Manning had: Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Demaryius Thomas, and Emmanuel Sanders. Not even going to mention the TEs.

 

Is this a joke? Whenever Brady had comparable talent on offense he won MVP awards just like buddy boy Peyton lol.

 

 

 

He's just trolling now. 

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1 hour ago, dmb3684 said:

 

He's just trolling now. 

In regards to rushing attempts, over the last 19 years, the Patriots have averaged 10th best in the league. In 10 of those 19 seasons, they finished better than 10th.

In regards to total rushing yards, over the last 19 years, the Patriots averaged 14th best in the league. In 8 of those 19 seasons they finished 10th or best eight times.

Those who believe the Pats haven't had good rushing teams, RB's, etc. are just flat wrong.

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2 hours ago, sSektor said:


Randy Moss for about 2 seasons, Gronk for about 7 (he missed about 2 seasons worth of games due to various injuries), Welker/Edelman if you want to count them as a HOF type I guess? Best RB Brady had was Kevin Faulk and he never even made a pro-bowl.

 

Meanwhile Manning had: Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Demaryius Thomas, and Emmanuel Sanders. Not even going to mention the TEs.

 

Is this a joke? Whenever Brady had comparable talent on offense he won MVP awards just like buddy boy Peyton lol.

 

 

You're using a lot of subjectivity and ignorance when you leave out players the Pats have had and also refuse to look at the team as a whole. I mean, isn't that what the Pats are known for? 

2001- Smith- 1157 yards- 4.0 y/a
2002- Smith + Faulk- 1253 yards- 4.1 y/a
2003- Smith + Faulk- 1280 yards- 3.6 y/a
2004- Dillion (Who you left out) + Faulk- 1990 yards- 4.7 y/a
2005- Dillion + Pass- 978 yards- 3.7 y/a
2006- Dillion- Maroney- 1557 yards- 4.2 y/a
2007- Maroney + Morris- 1219 yards- 4.5 y/a
2008- Morris + Faulk- 1234 yards- 5.2 y/a
2009- Morris + Maroney- 1076 yards- 4.0 y/a
2010- GreenEllis + Woodhead- 1555 yards- 4.8 y/a
2011- GreenEllis + Rodley- 1108 yards- 4.1 y/a
2012- Ridley + Woodhead- 1564 yards- 4.3 y/a
2013- Ridley + Blount- 1545 yards- 4.7 y/a
2014- Vareen + Ridley + Blount + Gray- 1424 yards- 4.2 y/a
2015- Blount + Lewis- 937 yards- 4.4 y/a
2016- Blount + Lewis- 1444 yards- 4.1 y/a
2017- Lewis + Gillisee- 1279 yards- 4.5 y/a
2018- Michel + White- 1356 yards- 4.5 y/a
2019- Michel + White- 1175 yards- 3.7 y/a

Over 19 seasons the Pats have average 4.3 yards per carry if you just include their top 2 RB's. 

Here is the Colts with Manning:

1998- Faulk + Warren- 1380 yards- 3.9 y/a
1999- James- 1553- 4.2 y/a
2000- James- 1709- 4.4 y/a
2001- Rhodes + James- 1768 yards- 4.6 y/a
2002- James + Mungro- 1325 yards- 3.5 y/a
2003- James + Williams- 1414 yards- 3.9 y/a
2004- James + Rhodes- 1802 yards- 4.6 y/a
2005- James + Rhodes- 1624 yards- 4.0 y/a
2006- Addai + Rhodes- 1722 yards- 4.1 y/a
2007- Addai + Kieth- 1605 yards- 4.2 y/a
2008- Addai + Rhodes- 1084 yards- 3.5 y/a
2009- Addai + Brown- 1109 yards- 3.7 y/a
2010- Brown + Addai- 992 yards- 4.0 y/a

In 13 seasons with Manning, the Colts averaged 4.0 y/a

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7 minutes ago, cashvillesent said:

Pats have average 4.3 yards per carry

Colts averaged 4.0 y/a

 

So splitting hairs basically, just like their regular season passer ratings. Him consistently having better receivers is undeniable by most sane people.

 

I'm sorry most people don't consider Manning top 2 all-time but he's probably got that #3 spot locked down for a little while if it makes you feel any better.

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4 hours ago, cashvillesent said:

In regards to rushing attempts, over the last 19 years, the Patriots have averaged 10th best in the league. In 10 of those 19 seasons, they finished better than 10th.

In regards to total rushing yards, over the last 19 years, the Patriots averaged 14th best in the league. In 8 of those 19 seasons they finished 10th or best eight times.

Those who believe the Pats haven't had good rushing teams, RB's, etc. are just flat wrong.

You can’t forget how absurdly good defenses they’ve had in Brady’s tenure. It’s absolutely insane how they have an elite defense almost every year. 

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5 hours ago, dmb3684 said:

 

He's just trolling now. 

And doing a really bad job of it too. Take the below for example...
 

2 hours ago, cashvillesent said:

You're using a lot of subjectivity and ignorance when you leave out players the Pats have had and also refuse to look at the team as a whole. I mean, isn't that what the Pats are known for? 

2001- Smith- 1157 yards- 4.0 y/a
2002- Smith + Faulk- 1253 yards- 4.1 y/a
2003- Smith + Faulk- 1280 yards- 3.6 y/a
2004- Dillion (Who you left out) + Faulk- 1990 yards- 4.7 y/a
2005- Dillion + Pass- 978 yards- 3.7 y/a
2006- Dillion- Maroney- 1557 yards- 4.2 y/a
2007- Maroney + Morris- 1219 yards- 4.5 y/a
2008- Morris + Faulk- 1234 yards- 5.2 y/a
2009- Morris + Maroney- 1076 yards- 4.0 y/a
2010- GreenEllis + Woodhead- 1555 yards- 4.8 y/a
2011- GreenEllis + Rodley- 1108 yards- 4.1 y/a
2012- Ridley + Woodhead- 1564 yards- 4.3 y/a
2013- Ridley + Blount- 1545 yards- 4.7 y/a
2014- Vareen + Ridley + Blount + Gray- 1424 yards- 4.2 y/a
2015- Blount + Lewis- 937 yards- 4.4 y/a
2016- Blount + Lewis- 1444 yards- 4.1 y/a
2017- Lewis + Gillisee- 1279 yards- 4.5 y/a
2018- Michel + White- 1356 yards- 4.5 y/a
2019- Michel + White- 1175 yards- 3.7 y/a

Over 19 seasons the Pats have average 4.3 yards per carry if you just include their top 2 RB's. 

Here is the Colts with Manning:

1998- Faulk + Warren- 1380 yards- 3.9 y/a
1999- James- 1553- 4.2 y/a
2000- James- 1709- 4.4 y/a
2001- Rhodes + James- 1768 yards- 4.6 y/a
2002- James + Mungro- 1325 yards- 3.5 y/a
2003- James + Williams- 1414 yards- 3.9 y/a
2004- James + Rhodes- 1802 yards- 4.6 y/a
2005- James + Rhodes- 1624 yards- 4.0 y/a
2006- Addai + Rhodes- 1722 yards- 4.1 y/a
2007- Addai + Kieth- 1605 yards- 4.2 y/a
2008- Addai + Rhodes- 1084 yards- 3.5 y/a
2009- Addai + Brown- 1109 yards- 3.7 y/a
2010- Brown + Addai- 992 yards- 4.0 y/a

In 13 seasons with Manning, the Colts averaged 4.0 y/a

You're trying to argue that Brady had better RB's to work with in NE, than the RB's that Manning had to work with INDY? 

And you're trying to do that by comparing YPC? That's the stat you're going to hang your hat on?

First of all, Manning had a HOF RB across the first 8 years of his career. M.Faulk in 1998 and E.James from 1999--2005. 

And beyond that, using the stats that you provided (minus 2008 for NE, which makes no sense to have been included, since Brady only played 1 game; you didn't include INDY'S stats in 2011 when Peyton was injured, so let's keep the criteria level).
--NE RB's: 1327 yards per season
--INDY RB's: 1468 yards per season

So Manning's RB's ran for more yards on average, than Brady's RB's did. But it's easy to ignore that when you're trying to grasp at straws to knock Brady.

Oh, and I also realize why you did include 2008 when Brady was out after Week 1. Looking at your stats, that happens to be a 5.2 YPC season for NE RB's (which is by far the best number they had according to your stats).

So let's sum up...
--You used YPC of all stats to try and prove Brady had better RB's.
--You ignored that Manning had 2 HOF RB's across the majority of his INDY career.
--You ignored that INDY RB's averaged more rushing yards per season than NE RB's.
--You included a season Brady played just 1 game in, to try and boost the NE YPC numbers to make it look like they were better than INDY RB's.

Wow.

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I was out when he said the Pats had a soft schedule this year. This topic is bogus anyhow. I'm out.

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1 hour ago, Corleone said:

And doing a really bad job of it too. Take the below for example...
 

You're trying to argue that Brady had better RB's to work with in NE, than the RB's that Manning had to work with INDY? 

And you're trying to do that by comparing YPC? That's the stat you're going to hang your hat on?

First of all, Manning had a HOF RB across the first 8 years of his career. M.Faulk in 1998 and E.James from 1999--2005. 

And beyond that, using the stats that you provided (minus 2008 for NE, which makes no sense to have been included, since Brady only played 1 game; you didn't include INDY'S stats in 2011 when Peyton was injured, so let's keep the criteria level).
--NE RB's: 1327 yards per season
--INDY RB's: 1468 yards per season

So Manning's RB's ran for more yards on average, than Brady's RB's did. But it's easy to ignore that when you're trying to grasp at straws to knock Brady.

Oh, and I also realize why you did include 2008 when Brady was out after Week 1. Looking at your stats, that happens to be a 5.2 YPC season for NE RB's (which is by far the best number they had according to your stats).

So let's sum up...
--You used YPC of all stats to try and prove Brady had better RB's.
--You ignored that Manning had 2 HOF RB's across the majority of his INDY career.
--You ignored that INDY RB's averaged more rushing yards per season than NE RB's.
--You included a season Brady played just 1 game in, to try and boost the NE YPC numbers to make it look like they were better than INDY RB's.

Wow.

you should look at team rushing ability, not just individual RB's.

YPC is the correct stat to use for team rushing ability because of what I said earlier  almost the entire difference in rushing attempts between winning and losing teams is due to the 4th quarter. Here are the stats:

 

 

spacer.png

 

You can see that point differential affects rushing attempts in an important way only in the 4th quarter. That's the leading team trying to run out the clock. So you don't want to use rushing attempts or rushing yards (which go up as a function of rushing attempts) to measure how good a team is at running the ball. YPC is the best stat among the ones we have.

Now, that changes if you're talking about individualrunning backs because only the better ones keep starting and getting carries, so both rushing attempts and rushing yards will strongly correlate with who the best running backs are, but that's only over a career and ONLY for individuals, not teams. So you want to argue which RB's are likely HoF's, rushing yards is probably the best measure.

But my post was about the team, and as I pointed out earlier the z-scores for BOTH Brady's and Manning's teams' rushing efficiencies are well below average, with it being slightly better for Brady.

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6 minutes ago, dmb3684 said:

I was out when he said the Pats had a soft schedule this year. This topic is bogus anyhow. I'm out.

 

This topic basically doesn't exist anymore on even moderately active and populated forums. It just gets downvoted into oblivion instantly because most people (rightfully) think it's a waste of time lol

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I have to agree - I literally don’t understand what any of this has to do with fantasy football in 2020.  I’m sure there are other Internet forums that would welcome this particular debate, but it’s entirely irrelevant to the stated purpose of this discussion forum.

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27 minutes ago, dmb3684 said:

I was out when he said the Pats had a soft schedule this year. This topic is bogus anyhow. I'm out.

 

19 minutes ago, sSektor said:

 

This topic basically doesn't exist anymore on even moderately active and populated forums. It just gets downvoted into oblivion instantly because most people (rightfully) think it's a waste of time lol

 

9 minutes ago, BMcP said:

I have to agree - I literally don’t understand what any of this has to do with fantasy football in 2020.  I’m sure there are other Internet forums that would welcome this particular debate, but it’s entirely irrelevant to the stated purpose of this discussion forum.


Agreed...this topic should get the Josh Gordon thread treatment and be locked.

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Manning is the greatest regular reason QB of all time.

Problem is, in every sport your legacy is made in the playoffs. He’s choked so many times in the playoffs. No thanks. 

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7 hours ago, Gohawks said:

Manning is the greatest regular reason QB of all time.

Problem is, in every sport your legacy is made in the playoffs. He’s choked so many times in the playoffs. No thanks. 

And yet Manning and Brady have played very similarly in the post season.

Just stop. You're not able to understand what's going on. Nearly everything you've written has been debunked.

You have a preconceived notion about Brady, probably because you're fairly ignorant about football and you were 8 years old when he came into the league. No one here is claiming that Brady isn't a HoF QB. Hell, no one here is even saying that there isn't an argument for Brady being better than Manning (I don't believe that). However, there is no way that Manning was a "choker" in the post season. There is also no way to show that Brady was better by any measurable way than Manning in the post season unless you look at wins. And wins are TEAM accomplishments.

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On 2/13/2020 at 10:34 AM, cashvillesent said:

Just stop.


You have a preconceived notion about Brady and everything Patriots related

 

^ and fixed for accuracy.

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On 2/12/2020 at 1:55 AM, Gohawks said:

Leave it to a Patriots fan to compare a QB ranking to an actual scientific fact. 
 

Brady fans are a ******** cult man... 

 

Probably also kiss their kids on the mouth. 

 

An "interesting" debate would be what the bigger cult is here. Fans or people who's lives are dedicated to telling people how much they dislike the Patriots/Tom Brady.

*Note that I'm throwing around the word "interesting" pretty loosely here.

On 2/12/2020 at 6:01 PM, Gohawks said:

You can’t forget how absurdly good defenses they’ve had in Brady’s tenure. It’s absolutely insane how they have an elite defense almost every year. 

 

This is 100% incorrect. There was a stretch when the defense was terrible-solid and under no circumstances "elite". It didn't get back to elite again until late last year into this year. They've had an "elite" defense for likely less than half of Brady's career.

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When people discuss the greatest QB of all time, most people automatically give extreme weight to Superbowl victories.  If you do that, the answer is that Brady is the best and there is really nothing to argue.  If you weight every game the same, then it's Manning.  If your ranking methodology lands somewhere in between you might be on the fence but the other two groups are going to think there is not much of an argument.  However, most people strongly weight Superbowls so the answer for most will be Brady.  

 

If the question is turned to most skilled QB of all time (arm strength, accuracy, mobility, football IQ (ie. ability to audible to right play, read defense, control offense/huddle, make other players better, preparation skills, etc.)), which I think is a more interesting question, then I have my top three as some mix of Marino, Rodgers and Manning.  Brady is right there, but a little outside my top three. 

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to break up the flow of this contentious back and forth.

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16 minutes ago, WEIL3R said:

When people discuss the greatest QB of all time, most people automatically give extreme weight to Superbowl victories.  If you do that, the answer is that Brady is the best and there is really nothing to argue.  If you weight every game the same, then it's Manning.  If your ranking methodology lands somewhere in between you might be on the fence but the other two groups are going to think there is not much of an argument.  However, most people strongly weight Superbowls so the answer for most will be Brady.  

 

If the question is turned to most skilled QB of all time (arm strength, accuracy, mobility, football IQ (ie. ability to audible to right play, read defense, control offense/huddle, make other players better, preparation skills, etc.)), which I think is a more interesting question, then I have my top three as some mix of Marino, Rodgers and Manning.  Brady is right there, but a little outside my top three. 

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to break up the flow of this contentious back and forth.

 

No, this is the first unbiased post in a while here that isn't trying to criticize others (Patriots and their fans) so it's a breath of fresh air.

I agree that some people weight Superbowls/Championships a bit too much, but at the same time they do need to be weighted more than the regular season games. It makes no sense to weight a Superbowl victory the same as say, a mid september win.

Brady is the goat and that really can't be logically debated anymore IMO.

 

The interesting question that you bring up though is "most skilled" and is worth a debate. To me, it's difficult to answer due to its subjectivity. Interesting though, nonetheless.

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5 hours ago, WEIL3R said:

When people discuss the greatest QB of all time, most people automatically give extreme weight to Superbowl victories.  If you do that, the answer is that Brady is the best and there is really nothing to argue.  If you weight every game the same, then it's Manning.  If your ranking methodology lands somewhere in between you might be on the fence but the other two groups are going to think there is not much of an argument.  However, most people strongly weight Superbowls so the answer for most will be Brady.  

 

If the question is turned to most skilled QB of all time (arm strength, accuracy, mobility, football IQ (ie. ability to audible to right play, read defense, control offense/huddle, make other players better, preparation skills, etc.)), which I think is a more interesting question, then I have my top three as some mix of Marino, Rodgers and Manning.  Brady is right there, but a little outside my top three. 

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to break up the flow of this contentious back and forth.

You really don't think Brady is top 3 in the bolded categories above?

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16 hours ago, WEIL3R said:

When people discuss the greatest QB of all time, most people automatically give extreme weight to Superbowl victories.  If you do that, the answer is that Brady is the best and there is really nothing to argue.  If you weight every game the same, then it's Manning.  If your ranking methodology lands somewhere in between you might be on the fence but the other two groups are going to think there is not much of an argument.  However, most people strongly weight Superbowls so the answer for most will be Brady.  

 

If the question is turned to most skilled QB of all time (arm strength, accuracy, mobility, football IQ (ie. ability to audible to right play, read defense, control offense/huddle, make other players better, preparation skills, etc.)), which I think is a more interesting question, then I have my top three as some mix of Marino, Rodgers and Manning.  Brady is right there, but a little outside my top three. 

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to break up the flow of this contentious back and forth.

Lol

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12 hours ago, hockeyfan77 said:

You really don't think Brady is top 3 in the bolded categories above?

Add in mobility.  Manning & Marino are not escape artists. 

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Brady has more Rushing yards , recieving yards, rushing Td's,  passing td's, passing yards  than Manning. Brady also has more SB appearances and wins...and more clutch factor than manning. Why is this still a debate? lol

 

Pretty sure Brady beats Marino and Rodgers in most of those stats also but im too lazy to look those up as well right now.

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