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5 hours ago, Deuce1042 said:

 

To be honest, a lot of QBs in the league right now (and especially historically) have been able to "succeed" in the NFL without being pin point accurate. Depending on what you mean by succeed. Dak has never been pin point accurate despite what his completion percentage indicates. And we all know Cam Newton has never been accurate on a consistent basis. QB is a hard position to evaluate and I don't think there are easily definable traits that lead to a QB being successful or not. It's really case by case. 

I think what I am trying to convey, the more accurate the more success long term you will have...You can't go by completion % because some accurate QB are good enough to throw balls away when needed...The difference on hitting a WR in stride so he can get some YAC and throwing just inches so the WR has to stop makes a HUGE diffrence

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On 2/14/2020 at 5:56 PM, hockeyfan77 said:

You really don't think Brady is top 3 in the bolded categories above?

I think he is near the top in those categories.  Remember, this has nothing to do with "greatest" of all time or Super Bowl wins.  I was positing about most skilled QB of all time, which to me is an entirely different argument.  Though even "most skilled" is open to interpretation.  How much do you weight arm talent (strength, accuracy, quickness of release) vs football IQ?

 

Brady just isn't there for me.  I would be surprised if any non-Patriot fan put him as the "most skilled" QB of all time as loosely outlined in my prior post.  Think of it more like surrounding each of these QB's with the same team and seeing who would perform best.  Things like actual wins, Super Bowls, etc. are non-factors. Again, this isn't an argument for "greatest" it's an argument for "most skilled".

 

Marino never had a running game, barely had a defense, had undersized (albeit decently talented) WR's, and everyone knew that he would be passing a large percentage of the time...yet he still dominated.  He was standard deviations better than other QB's of his era IMO.  Way more talented than Montana.  If Marino was on that niner team of the 80's the league would have been in trouble.

 

Rodgers efficiency is unparalleled. Even accounting for the increased popularity of the short and intermediate passing game, his ability jumps off the page...both from a stats perspective and from an eye test.  He has excellent mobility and he and Russel Wilson are probably the best I've seen making accurate throws on the run.

 

Prime Peyton Manning was a beast.  Excellent all-around arm talent, unparalleled with game prep and reading defenses (though Brady is right there with him).  A master tactician with talent to back it up.  

 

Mahomes is too young to be discussed in any meaningful way.

 

I'm not trying to piss anyone off and I probably don't post here enough for my opinions to be taken too seriously.  And all of that is fine.  I just thought this was a more interesting way to look at the QB position.  Otherwise the answer is probably going to be Tom Brady.

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On 2/15/2020 at 5:12 PM, sSektor said:


Rodgers "most physically talented thrower of the football ever" schtick definitely got usurped by Mahomes this past season, sample size be damned on that one.

I don't think Mahomes is on par with Rodgers deep ball accuracy (both in the pocket and out), particularly in Rodgers' prime (which I think has already passed).  Mahomes could get there, but it helps to have the speed of a Tyreek Hill to cover up any accuracy issues.  Don't get me wrong, I love Mahomes and when all is said and done he could easily be in this conversation.

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9 hours ago, WEIL3R said:

I think he is near the top in those categories.  Remember, this has nothing to do with "greatest" of all time or Super Bowl wins.  I was positing about most skilled QB of all time, which to me is an entirely different argument.  Though even "most skilled" is open to interpretation.  How much do you weight arm talent (strength, accuracy, quickness of release) vs football IQ?

 

Brady just isn't there for me.  I would be surprised if any non-Patriot fan put him as the "most skilled" QB of all time as loosely outlined in my prior post.  Think of it more like surrounding each of these QB's with the same team and seeing who would perform best.  Things like actual wins, Super Bowls, etc. are non-factors. Again, this isn't an argument for "greatest" it's an argument for "most skilled".

 

Marino never had a running game, barely had a defense, had undersized (albeit decently talented) WR's, and everyone knew that he would be passing a large percentage of the time...yet he still dominated.  He was standard deviations better than other QB's of his era IMO.  Way more talented than Montana.  If Marino was on that niner team of the 80's the league would have been in trouble.

 

Rodgers efficiency is unparalleled. Even accounting for the increased popularity of the short and intermediate passing game, his ability jumps off the page...both from a stats perspective and from an eye test.  He has excellent mobility and he and Russel Wilson are probably the best I've seen making accurate throws on the run.

 

Prime Peyton Manning was a beast.  Excellent all-around arm talent, unparalleled with game prep and reading defenses (though Brady is right there with him).  A master tactician with talent to back it up.  

 

Mahomes is too young to be discussed in any meaningful way.

 

I'm not trying to piss anyone off and I probably don't post here enough for my opinions to be taken too seriously.  And all of that is fine.  I just thought this was a more interesting way to look at the QB position.  Otherwise the answer is probably going to be Tom Brady.

The problem IMO is there is way more to being a QB than just throwing the ball, it's like saying a WR that has the most speed: WR need to have speed but more importantly quickness for route running...Same with RB reading the holes and having quickness to hit the hole with speed and power...

 

 

Maybe from some people but not from me: I have been on here an reading post since 2013 but I just made the decision to post in November because some people will dismiss your post if you don't have 10,000 and I hate it

 

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7 hours ago, hockeyfan77 said:

The problem IMO is there is way more to being a QB than just throwing the ball, it's like saying a WR that has the most speed: WR need to have speed but more importantly quickness for route running...Same with RB reading the holes and having quickness to hit the hole with speed and power...

 

 

Maybe from some people but not from me: I have been on here an reading post since 2013 but I just made the decision to post in November because some people will dismiss your post if you don't have 10,000 and I hate it

 

No one dismisses any posts based on post count. 

Post good content and your posts wont be dismissed. Post terrible content over and over and your posts will be dismissed. Like, i don't even know where the dude is that spewed FPPT for an entire offseason.

As for the point above, yes there is more to a QB than that. People often tend to overlook the non obvious essentials at every position. I always see RBs get hyped up because they are very athletic and flashly but can't read a play or hit the hole to save their life. Guys like Michael and even so far Henderson who had insane hype despite being not good at very important things. Brady is extremely smart and also coachable. That gets him points over a guy like Rodgers. Granted, Brady has the GOAT and Rodgers never had a truly elite coach (although McCarthy wasn't as bad as people made him out to be). That being said, guys like Brady and Wilson are drama free and great locker room guys 24/7. That falls under the being a great QB scale in my opinion. Hosting a private camp for all your WRs during the offseason falls under being a great QB and impacts your legacy. This stuff leads to wins just like throwing perfect spirals leads to wins. 

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I don't know if the film justifies this but it feels like Mahomes rarely ever has to make a tight window throw. Some of Aaron Rodger's over the years are insanity. 

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1 hour ago, Deuce1042 said:

I don't know if the film justifies this but it feels like Mahomes rarely ever has to make a tight window throw. Some of Aaron Rodger's over the years are insanity. 

That's the thing about Mahomes and Lamar in this discussion.

They just haven't had to face any difficulty in terms of roster. Mahomes has basically had a top 5 WR, very good line, the best TE in the game, and very good 2nd and 3rd options at WR. He also had one of the best RBs in the game to start his career. You don't really need to make tight throws when you have like 3 WRs that can take the top off the defense and the best TE in the game.

Wilson and Rodgers have both had to go through tough ****. Absolutely no weapons, no protection, and other issues. Both have shown the ability to drag their absolutely awful a** teams to winning records and the playoffs. 

What Mahomes has done by 24 is absolutely absurd. I can see why people put him as the best QB in the game and a lot of people claim that you would have to be insane to put him otherwise. Maybe. However, if I need to pick one QB to win me a game with an average roster I am taking Wilson or Rodgers everytime. 

We don't have much of a sample size but keep in mind Moore beat the Vikings and only lost to the Packers by one score when Mahomes was out. Reid had a winning record every single season and won double digit games 4/5 times without Mahomes. So there's that. 

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20 hours ago, Gohawks said:

That's the thing about Mahomes and Lamar in this discussion.

They just haven't had to face any difficulty in terms of roster. Mahomes has basically had a top 5 WR, very good line, the best TE in the game, and very good 2nd and 3rd options at WR. He also had one of the best RBs in the game to start his career. You don't really need to make tight throws when you have like 3 WRs that can take the top off the defense and the best TE in the game.

Wilson and Rodgers have both had to go through tough ****. Absolutely no weapons, no protection, and other issues. Both have shown the ability to drag their absolutely awful a** teams to winning records and the playoffs. 

What Mahomes has done by 24 is absolutely absurd. I can see why people put him as the best QB in the game and a lot of people claim that you would have to be insane to put him otherwise. Maybe. However, if I need to pick one QB to win me a game with an average roster I am taking Wilson or Rodgers everytime. 

We don't have much of a sample size but keep in mind Moore beat the Vikings and only lost to the Packers by one score when Mahomes was out. Reid had a winning record every single season and won double digit games 4/5 times without Mahomes. So there's that. 

 

To be honest, Mahomes was drafted into a better situation than Lamar even though Lamar was drafted to a good situation. Baltimore hasn't been very dynamic at receiver in either year he's been there and Baltimore had missed the playoffs three consecutive years before they benched Flacco. Ravens have a good stable of running backs and TE's and a very good (statistically great) offensive line, even though they didn't look that great before he was behind center. The Chiefs on the other hand were the best team in the AFC West and a very formidable offensive football team before Mahomes was their starter. I don't think they've missed the playoffs since Andy Reid has been the head coach there. Maybe once. 

 

On the flip side it seems like Russell Wilson never got the respect he deserved until Seattle's roster went in the toilet and he had to be Superman. Which really it shouldn't take that much to acknowledge that someone is a good quarterback but you know how NFL fans and media are. Playing with a good team is somehow a detriment to how you're viewed as a player. Unless you're someone like Mahomes who has largely avoided that so far. And I don't think any QB has done more with less than Rodgers the past decade. Brady might've had so-so guys at receiver but geez at least New England's defense and offensive line were usually great and they're a well coached team. 

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On 2/19/2020 at 3:52 PM, Gohawks said:

That's the thing about Mahomes and Lamar in this discussion.

They just haven't had to face any difficulty in terms of roster. Mahomes has basically had a top 5 WR, very good line, the best TE in the game, and very good 2nd and 3rd options at WR. He also had one of the best RBs in the game to start his career. You don't really need to make tight throws when you have like 3 WRs that can take the top off the defense and the best TE in the game.

Wilson and Rodgers have both had to go through tough ****. Absolutely no weapons, no protection, and other issues. Both have shown the ability to drag their absolutely awful a** teams to winning records and the playoffs. 

What Mahomes has done by 24 is absolutely absurd. I can see why people put him as the best QB in the game and a lot of people claim that you would have to be insane to put him otherwise. Maybe. However, if I need to pick one QB to win me a game with an average roster I am taking Wilson or Rodgers everytime. 

We don't have much of a sample size but keep in mind Moore beat the Vikings and only lost to the Packers by one score when Mahomes was out. Reid had a winning record every single season and won double digit games 4/5 times without Mahomes. So there's that. 

 

 I  can understand your position, basically Mahommes has not faced the adversity of a Wilson and Rodgers  but to be fair Wilson had the advantage of having the best shut down defense in the NFL his first few years and Marshawn to carry the load, winning his first ring.

I think people massively discount Wilsons early and current work because of the SEA defense and running game plus the hype surrounding Kap, Luck and RG3 sandwiched between the greatness of Rodgers,Brees,Brady.  He doesnt have gaudy passing stats every season despite his ridiculous passing ability and the records he sets. I still think Wilson given his talent is criminally underused by Petey and this offense is not the best fit for him but he makes it work. Fanboy dream is pair Wilson with Sean Payton and we would all be talking of him as the next GOAT. 

Now I do agree since the departure of the Lynch and the deterioration of the defense Wilson has carried his team with his talent and ability because frankly there was nothing much on the roster to assist him. The running game was struggling as Petey was trying to recreate beastmode 2. and 3.0. I know people loved Baldwin who was a talented technician but he wasnt a pass catching game changer. The fact was Wilson was robbed of MVP the year they gave it to Brady. 

Rodgers is a great QB on good and bad teams. Period. Nothing else to say. 

Brady is great but let's be honest the entire system in NE from organization to on filed talent has been consistently great.  They always find a way to win and that's not because of the QB overperforming every season. they are great at beating other teams in every facet of the game; on and off the field.

Mahommes benefits from sitting out 1 season to learn Reids system and then plugging into a winning system full of top talent that perfectly suits his talent. He also has one of the best coaches in the NFL who can get the most from a talented young QB. You know Reid probably has 500 passing plays in his book he has yet to show the world.

Lamar literally had an offense built around his talent last season. People forget that the players were learning how to run that new offense in real time, so we still have yet to see what Lamar is fully capable of but we did see how his talent for a half of a season in year 1 turned around a dead offense with no talent and then broke records in 1 full season.  His development is happening at light speed .

 

 I do think it's silly to compare the young guns of mahommes+Lamar to every season greats like Wilson+Rodgers at this point.

 

 

Edited by dashoe
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I just saw this thread, as I rarely read Football, so maybe all things been said here on 70 pages, but I find it shocking to even consider this idea, so I decided to add what I learned over the years watching Manning and Brady teams.

Payton Manning was probably the greatest game manager I've ever seen.
Had a great arm too.
To me, Manning is the best QB of the era after the Montana Marino Elway era.

While Brady is nothing more then a mediocre QB who happened to be at the right place at the right time.
Bill Belichick on Brady:
"Works very hard, he is very smart. He has trained hard, worked hard on his throwing mechanics. He has worked hard on his mental understanding of the game, and process. He is not a great natural athlete. He is a very smart instinctive football player. It's not all about talent, it's about dependability, consistency. "

So according to his coach, who is clearly one of the greatest coaches of all time, Brady is not that talented, and not a natural athlete.
Fairly evident if you look at his QB challenge tape on Youtube. Finished with zero point in accuracy.



What was evident over the years, that Brady can't do crap behind an average O-line with no receivers like Welker, Edelman, Randy Moss, Gronk and the mostly forgotten man Troy Brown.
While with Randy Moss it was easy, as Randy Moss made even Dante Culpepper look like a Hall of Famer.
The other one who was catching medium distance throws was Gronk, who is a Hall of Fame TE, who would have been easily great with any QB in the league with his size, strength and good hands.
These are the facts.
Troy Brown was like Welker and Edelman, it's just back then those type of players were overlooked. Mostly, but not by Bill Belichick. And those pesky Wide Receivers allowed Brady to throw short easy completions. And what not many people know, that despite Brady was use to be a top yardage QB in every season, his Air Yards sucked, as his was nearly always bottom half in the league, while the Patriots receivers YAC was one of the best in the league. Now combine that with huge volume and you get a mediocre QB getting these numbers.
Ok, one could argue that for this much volume you need to throw a lot, but that is where the O-Line came into picture.
His O-line (or sometimes the referees) gave him enough time to make the easy throw.

I wonder which NFL level QB can't do what Brady did. Standing there in great protection waiting for his speedy receiver or the Hall of Famer receiver to get open. Many times he had so much time that he could have had a danish and coffee and reading the morning news while waiting for the receiver to get open. And the refs rarely called offensive holding on the Patriots for "whatever reason".
Well I said Im wondering, but actually not much of a wondering, since Im sure every NFL caliber QB could do this who has the brain to understand simple things, as DO NOT SCREW UP. That is all he had to do.
Belichick made life easy for Brady.
All in all Brady is a mediocre QB who would have never survived on any other team. He was an afterthought on draft day for a very good reason. He is nothing special, just been in the right place at the right time.

Edited by JCD
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Manning vs. Brady: 15 Amazing Statistics

 

198

The number of draft positions separating Peyton Manning and Tom Brady in their respective draft classes. Manning was selected first overall by the Colts in the 1998 NFL Draft out of the University of Tennessee. Brady was selected by the Patriots with the 199th overall pick (6th round) in the 2000 draft out of the University of Michigan.

 

6

Brady won each of the first six games in which he faced a Manning-led team from 2001-05. It also stands as the longest win streak for either quarterback in their head-to-head series. Manning would go on to win the next three games from 2005-07.

 

9

The number of games in the rivalry in which Manning threw for 300 or more yards. Brady threw in excess of 300 yards in just five of the 17 meetings.

 

2

The number of times Manning threw for more than 400 yards in the series. He threw for 400 yards in the 2013 AFC Championship Game victory and then for 438 yards in a Week 9 loss at New England during the 2014 season. Brady never threw for 400 or more yards in his matchups vs. Manning. Brady's highest passing yardage total in the rivalry came in a 2009 loss when Manning was with the Colts. Brady threw for 375 yards in that game.

 

8

The number of games in which Brady did not throw an interception against a Manning-led team. Brady did not throw a single pick in any of his first five contests matched up against Manning. Brady had a 6-2 record against Manning in games without an interception. Manning had just four games in the 17-game series without an interception. Manning had a 3-1 record in those contests.

 

50+

Manning and Brady each threw 50 or more passes in their games against each other. Manning had 52 pass attempts in his last game against Brady as a Colt in 2010 and topped that with 57 throws in a 2014 meeting. Brady had 53 attempts of his own in that game, a 43-21 Patriots win at home in Week 9. Brady also had 56 pass attempts in a loss to the Broncos in the 2015 AFC Championship game. In addition, Brady threw 50 passes in the 2013 regular-season matchup against the Broncos, a 34-31 overtime victory in Week 12.

 

 

9,308

The total combined number of passing yards for Brady and Manning in their 17 meetings. Manning wass responsible for 4,985 of those yards with Brady accounting for the other 4,323.

 

73

The combined total number of touchdowns from the duo in 17 games. Manning had 35 touchdown passes and three rushing touchdowns, while Brady has 32 scores through the air and an identical three on the ground.

 

12

The total number of games in which Brady and Manning threw at least three touchdown passes in a game in this rivalry. Brady had seven such performances, while Manning accomplished this feat five times.

 

10.0

The average margin of victory in the 17 combined games between Manning and Brady. While there were some notable nail-biters in the series, the rivalry also saw its fair share of blowouts.

 

6-5

While Brady held an 11-6 edge overall against Manning in the rivalry, Manning went 6-5 against Brady over the last 11 matchups.

 

3-2

The 2015 AFC Championship Game marked the fifth time that Manning and Brady opposed each other in the playoffs. That is most of any two quarterbacks in NFL history. The postseason tally was 3-2 in favor of Manning. Brady won the first two playoff matchups in the 2003 and '04 seasons, with Manning taking home victories in the last three (2006, '13, '15 seasons).

 

4

The number of times Brady and Manning faced one another in the AFC Championship Game. Manning held a 3-1 edge over Brady in games with a trip to the Super Bowl on the line.

 

2007

Brady led the Patriots to a 24-20 win against Manning’s Colts in Indianapolis in 2007. It marked the last time that either quarterback won a road game in the series. Subsequently, they met seven times with the home team winning each matchup.

 

10

The number of times Brady and the Patriots hosted Manning at home in the 17 game series. Nine of those ten home matchups were played in Gillette Stadium. The other was played in the now demolished Foxboro Stadium in 2001. Foxboro Satdium would serve as the very first venue for the Manning vs. Brady rivalry. Manning faced Brady at home a combined 7 times as a Colt and Bronco (4 times in the now demolished RCA Dome as a Colt, 1 time in Lucas Oil Stadium as a Colt and 2 times at Sports Authority Field at Mile High as a Bronco)

 

— Written by Rob McVey, who is part of the Athlon Contributor Network. Follow him on Twitter @Rob_UTVOLS.

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46 minutes ago, SyNdicateZ said:

Manning vs. Brady: 15 USELESS Amazing Statistics

 

 

 

🤣😂🤣

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On 2/25/2020 at 5:23 PM, SyNdicateZ said:

 

 

The conversation seems to have once again shifted to if Brady was ever even an above average QB. I'll be convinced this is true when someone builds a time machine and convinces a young Brady to pick baseball over football.

 

Also shout out to the mods for still keeping this joke of a thread open in a fantasy football forum. Can't wait to really dig deep and decide whether I should draft Peyton Manning in the later rounds over Brady.

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This thread should absolutely be closed. It's odd to me that this thread remains open at all tbh. Plenty of times I have seen threads locked because it has nothing to do with fantasy football (Antonio Brown, Josh Gordon to name a few). In addition, player threads are locked on game day so that FANTASY FOOTBALL things can't be discussed because conversations apparently have to be confined to the game day threads. None of this makes sense to me but what are you gonna do?

 

On top of that, this thread seems to just be a hangout for those wanting to troll. There's really no reason it should be a thread anymore.

Edited by ThreadKiller

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I certainly agree that it shouldn’t be open - and it is an invitation for people on both sides to “troll.”  But I also recognize that this is a moderated forum.  And the mods decide what is acceptable and what is not, regarding posted content.  Not sure why anyone would volunteer to serve in their stead by dictating what is and is not permissible content for posting.

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1 hour ago, BMcP said:

I certainly agree that it shouldn’t be open - and it is an invitation for people on both sides to “troll.”  But I also recognize that this is a moderated forum.  And the mods decide what is acceptable and what is not, regarding posted content.  Not sure why anyone would volunteer to serve in their stead by dictating what is and is not permissible content for posting.

 

No one volunteering here, so not sure I understand what you're saying here?.. Just pointing out that many other threads have been closed or locked with reasons of "this is not fantasy football relevant." It's fair to point out that this thread isn't at all fantasy relevant either, so why don't the same rules apply?

This thread has turned mostly into a circle of Brady haters trying to change the minds of Brady supporters with Brady supporters responding to it/becoming defensive. Not the other way around. 

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23 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

It's fair to point out that this thread isn't at all fantasy relevant either, so why don't the same rules apply?

 

Mods do whatever they want especially on small forums.

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14 minutes ago, sSektor said:

 

Mods do whatever they want especially on small forums.

Mods understand that just because you have criticisms of a player, it doesn’t mean you “hate” that player.  I’m grateful for their help.  Things would descend into chaos if individual posters were allowed to tell people what they were or were not allowed to post.

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18 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Mods understand that just because you have criticisms of a player, it doesn’t mean you “hate” that player.  I’m grateful for their help.  Things would descend into chaos if individual posters were allowed to tell people what they were or were not allowed to post.

 

I think everyone in their right mind understands this, so I agree with you here. Though when it comes to these threads about the New England Patriots, that isn't the case with lot of posters and I think as long as everyone is being honest with themselves, they are able to admit that.

Edited by ThreadKiller
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What Mods ? they have mods here? The inmates run dis

Edited by SyNdicateZ
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19 hours ago, BMcP said:

Mods understand that just because you have criticisms of a player, it doesn’t mean you “hate” that player.  I’m grateful for their help.  Things would descend into chaos if individual posters were allowed to tell people what they were or were not allowed to post.


Don’t ever post nice things about the mods again.  
 

👀 

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First off, why do people complain about the existence of a thread? Don't like it? Don't click on it. People are such babies on the internet. 

Secondly, there can be no doubt that the greatest football player ever is Thomas Edward Patrick Brady. What he's done in the clutch, year after year, far surpasses the most dazzling throws Manning, Rodgers and Mahomes have ever made combined. Arm talent does not a great Quarterback make. 

6 rings. 4 super bowl mvps. 3 reg season MVPs. All with a variety of supporting pieces big and small. 

#facts

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5 hours ago, Gandalfthecat said:

6 rings. 4 super bowl mvps. 3 reg season MVPs. All with a variety of supporting pieces big and small. 


Ok but if you remove every ring and give credit to the system for every above average throw he's ever made then he's a bum to be honest.

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2 hours ago, sSektor said:


Ok but if you remove every ring and give credit to the system for every above average throw he's ever made then he's a bum to be honest.

Manning changed the game 

Brady rode Belichicks coattails 

 

pretty simple 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Impreza178 said:

Manning changed the game 

Brady rode Belichicks coattails 

 

pretty simple 

 

I mean if you want to give him some charity points for being creative pre-snap sure. Not really sure how big of a difference his audibles made in the playoffs when he threw back-breaking picks after the snap lol. Most people including Manning himself would rather have the rings. Seems his game changing creativity often disappeared in the playoffs 🤔

 

Living in the safety of the regular season is always nice though. Maybe he will come in the top 2 in a for funsies regular season only QB list.

 

 

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