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Just now, My Dinner With Andre said:

 

You realize Matt Ryan has a better QB rating than Brady this year right?

Why watch games when you can just look at stats?

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1 minute ago, Dislimb said:

Why watch games when you can just look at stats?

 

I'm just saying, you're saying Brady had "the most efficient season a QB has ever had" and he didn't even lead the league in QB rating

Edited by My Dinner With Andre

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Just now, My Dinner With Andre said:

 

I'm just saying, you're saying Brady had "the most efficient season a QB has ever had" and he didn't even lead the league in QB rating

Are you insinuating that Matt Ryan is a better QB than Tom Brady? Or better than Peyton Manning for that matter? Asking for a friend.

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5 minutes ago, Dislimb said:

Are you insinuating that Matt Ryan is a better QB than Tom Brady? Or better than Peyton Manning for that matter? Asking for a friend.

 

I think he's saying Ryan has been the best QB this season statistically thats all.

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The Matt Cassel argument has got to die.  I really wish the Patriots that year (when Brady got hurt) didn't have such a simplistic schedule.  Patriots played 5 teams with a whopping record of over .500.  Brady would have gone 19-0 that year.  Matt Cassel would of gotten exposed in the playoffs on a 1 and done had they made it.

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19 minutes ago, Dislimb said:

Yet they have 17 seasons worth of game film of his offensive system to study/copy/etc.

You're one of the best posters on this forum, but in my personal opinion you're way off base on this particular subject. And don't let the Gronk avatar fool you, I'm in no way, shape or form a Pats fan (just a Gronk fan since I have him in dynasty) but I give credit where it's due. And in Brady/Belichick's case, it certainly is.

And everyone has access to CocaCola but yet no one knows the recipe. The same can be said here. I said Brady is good (credit) but he's great because of the system that Belichick has implemented. Sure teams can try and run similar styles (Pepsi) but it just ain't as good as the original soda (Coke) and that lies with Belichick himself. How did the offenses of Mangini, Obrien and others who have learned under the grand master do while on their own? Hackenberg did well with obrien and then when he left penn state, hack went to crap. They will never be as good as Belichick and their offenses will never be as good. If they have players who can mitigate drops, they can essentially plug any guy in that machine and they'll perform and be successful. Maybe I'm talking out of my a** but this is what I've been seeing. 

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1. Manning had the best offensive weapons of any QB in NFL history throughout his career

 

Players Manning played with: Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Demaryius Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders, Julius Thomas, Wes Welker, 

Players Brady played with: Randy Moss (1 year and broke every QB-WR record at the time), Gronk, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman (QB turned WR:huh:)

 

2. Forget super bowls, lets look at playoff wins

1.Tom Brady - 22-9

2.Joe Montana - 16-7

5. Peyton Manning - 12-11

 

3.Peyton Manning has 9, "1-and-done" playoff appearances 

Tom Brady has been to 9 AFC Championship games

 

Stop the madness!

 

And for the record Matt Cassel took a 2-14 Chiefs team to the playoffs just 2 years after getting traded. Not to mention he had a better year in 2010 with KC than he did with the Pats.

 

Edited by footballpimp
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1 hour ago, LeeVanCleef said:

Hmm I don't know...maybe because they don't have Belichick?

 

I'm not sure how respond to that. Nobody else in football can watch 15+ years of games and copy it?

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1 hour ago, LeeVanCleef said:

How did the offenses of Mangini, Obrien and others who have learned under the grand master do while on their own? Hackenberg did well with obrien and then when he left penn state, hack went to crap. They will never be as good as Belichick and their offenses will never be as good. If they have players who can mitigate drops, they can essentially plug any guy in that machine and they'll perform and be successful. Maybe I'm talking out of my a** but this is what I've been seeing. 

I think that's a huge argument for Brady.  Hoyer, Weeden, Oswiler, or Savage are crap under Obrien.  Orton, Quinn, and Tebow amounted to nothing under McDaniels in Denver. Saban was essentially .500 in the NFL despite being a Belichick system guy (although it has translated very well to college). 

 

Brady is an uber talent.  I think if you put him in Indiana/Denver and Peyton in Foxboro, there isn't a significant difference in the career arcs.  Brady becomes a perennial stat guy workaholic who demands execution perfection from his fellow offensive players who slaves with some iffy teams and ultimately wins a couple super bowls, although he's carrying the Broncos instead of them carrying him because he seems to do a better job of taking care of his body.  Manning becomes a perennial stat guy workaholic who slaves with some great teams that demand execution perfection at a teamwide level and wins several super bowls, although he probably doesn't last as long as Brady has. 

 

Either way, it's hard to argue against either two, especially since they play in the age of NFL "parity." It's so hard to compare with guys like Montana or Bradshaw that played in a dynasty that didn't really have to worry about maintaining a team under a salary cap.

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25 minutes ago, jbshaw said:

I think that's a huge argument for Brady.  Hoyer, Weeden, Oswiler, or Savage are crap under Obrien.  Orton, Quinn, and Tebow amounted to nothing under McDaniels in Denver. Saban was essentially .500 in the NFL despite being a Belichick system guy (although it has translated very well to college). 

 

Brady is an uber talent.  I think if you put him in Indiana/Denver and Peyton in Foxboro, there isn't a significant difference in the career arcs.  Brady becomes a perennial stat guy workaholic who demands execution perfection from his fellow offensive players who slaves with some iffy teams and ultimately wins a couple super bowls, although he's carrying the Broncos instead of them carrying him because he seems to do a better job of taking care of his body.  Manning becomes a perennial stat guy workaholic who slaves with some great teams that demand execution perfection at a teamwide level and wins several super bowls, although he probably doesn't last as long as Brady has. 

 

Either way, it's hard to argue against either two, especially since they play in the age of NFL "parity." It's so hard to compare with guys like Montana or Bradshaw that played in a dynasty that didn't really have to worry about maintaining a team under a salary cap.

 

So essentially you wrote a bunch of words and have no take on the actual question.

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3 minutes ago, dmb3684 said:

 

So essentially you wrote a bunch of words and have no take on the actual question.

My take is Brady is every bit as talented as Manning.  

 

I think once you get to that point, you're arguing about which identical twin is hotter. Some people are going to see different things, but in reality, they're both just about as hot.

 

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38 minutes ago, jbshaw said:

My take is Brady is every bit as talented as Manning.  

 

I think once you get to that point, you're arguing about which identical twin is hotter. Some people are going to see different things, but in reality, they're both just about as hot.

 

 

Haha good take. Should have just said that in the first place.

 

Though, I disagree. 

Edited by dmb3684

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This thread was deadlocked before the season. Brady is looking at another MVP and/or Superbowl. Seems pretty clear to me. But what do I know.

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1 hour ago, dmb3684 said:

 

I'm not sure how respond to that. Nobody else in football can watch 15+ years of games and copy it?

And I responded to that. Why has every coach that was under BB that went on to be a HC essentially failed?  Because they don't have Belichick who is the actual mastermind of the system.  They'll never be as good as the real thing.  Why has no one been able to figure out Coke's formula?  Just because you can analyze game tape doesn't mean you can truly figure it out.  How come defenses can't stop them with all that game tape?  Because the system is damn near perfect.  How many friggin times have we heard with WRs coming onto the patriots and they say, "it's a very complex system" so obviously they're not gonna learn the damn system just from watching game tape.  

Also, those mentioning Brady's lack of "big name weapons" that just proves the system point.  Why would an organization pay $8M+ a year when they can pay a fraction of that to any player off the street who can actually catch?  If they have decent hands and half a brain to understand the plays, they're gonna be successful in this offense.  They're football savvy and understand that they can find the right piece for cheap because it doesn't need to be some big time talented player.  They can make it work with any position in this system.  They'll use em, dump them if it doesn't work out and try again.  It's pretty much been a constant rotation outside of Edelman.  Some players just excel in certain systems and others fail.  We see it all the time with players and this is no different.

Edited by LeeVanCleef

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I loved Manning and respected him very much but Tom Brady has long since passed him. All it is is one Hall of Famer outshining another. Nothing too outlandish. 

 

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3 hours ago, LeeVanCleef said:

And I responded to that. Why has every coach that was under BB that went on to be a HC essentially failed?  Because they don't have Belichick who is the actual mastermind of the system.  They'll never be as good as the real thing.  Why has no one been able to figure out Coke's formula?  Just because you can analyze game tape doesn't mean you can truly figure it out.  How come defenses can't stop them with all that game tape?  Because the system is damn near perfect.  How many friggin times have we heard with WRs coming onto the patriots and they say, "it's a very complex system" so obviously they're not gonna learn the damn system just from watching game tape.  

Also, those mentioning Brady's lack of "big name weapons" that just proves the system point.  Why would an organization pay $8M+ a year when they can pay a fraction of that to any player off the street who can actually catch?  If they have decent hands and half a brain to understand the plays, they're gonna be successful in this offense.  They're football savvy and understand that they can find the right piece for cheap because it doesn't need to be some big time talented player.  They can make it work with any position in this system.  They'll use em, dump them if it doesn't work out and try again.  It's pretty much been a constant rotation outside of Edelman.  Some players just excel in certain systems and others fail.  We see it all the time with players and this is no different.

 

Ehh. I'm too lazy to argue. But if you think Brady is a system QB, I don't think you know a whole lot about football.

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I'd probably rate Brady as the best or near best of all time, but man has he benefitted from playing for a decade and a half in an absolutely God awful division. Look at the QBs he's gotten the pleasure of playing against 6 games a year for 15 years in that division. 

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8 hours ago, footballpimp said:

1. Manning had the best offensive weapons of any QB in NFL history throughout his career

 

Players Manning played with: Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Demaryius Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders, Julius Thomas, Wes Welker, 

Players Brady played with: Randy Moss (1 year and broke every QB-WR record at the time), Gronk, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman (QB turned WR:huh:)

 

2. Forget super bowls, lets look at playoff wins

1.Tom Brady - 22-9

2.Joe Montana - 16-7

5. Peyton Manning - 12-11

 

3.Peyton Manning has 9, "1-and-done" playoff appearances 

Tom Brady has been to 9 AFC Championship games

 

Stop the madness!

 

And for the record Matt Cassel took a 2-14 Chiefs team to the playoffs just 2 years after getting traded. Not to mention he had a better year in 2010 with KC than he did with the Pats.

 

 

I see what you did there. You referenced each players offensive weapons, "excusing" Brady for having far weaker regular stats than Manning. But then you cannily shifted to playoff wins, which includes far more factors--coaching, defense, special teams--than just stats.

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I just hope he wins a super bowl and SBMVP so we never have to hear about this debate ever again.

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2 minutes ago, tebby said:

I just hope he wins a super bowl and SBMVP so we never have to hear about this debate ever again.

 

I hope Brady breaks Manning's career passing TD and passing yardage records. No, I really do. Only then will we really never need to have this debate again

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11 hours ago, LeeVanCleef said:

And everyone has access to CocaCola but yet no one knows the recipe. The same can be said here. I said Brady is good (credit) but he's great because of the system that Belichick has implemented. Sure teams can try and run similar styles (Pepsi) but it just ain't as good as the original soda (Coke) and that lies with Belichick himself. How did the offenses of Mangini, Obrien and others who have learned under the grand master do while on their own? Hackenberg did well with obrien and then when he left penn state, hack went to crap. They will never be as good as Belichick and their offenses will never be as good. If they have players who can mitigate drops, they can essentially plug any guy in that machine and they'll perform and be successful. Maybe I'm talking out of my a** but this is what I've been seeing. 

it seems Lee is a Peyton fan and if Tom didn't have Bill he would be blah. Bill is a genius ... So in Lee eyes anybody could play QB under Bill and be a success.

 

in case you don't remember --- Bill had a stint of five season in Cleveland a career coaching record of 36-44

 

Tom Brady is the best QB ....

 

 

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2 hours ago, petekrum said:

I'd probably rate Brady as the best or near best of all time, but man has he benefitted from playing for a decade and a half in an absolutely God awful division. Look at the QBs he's gotten the pleasure of playing against 6 games a year for 15 years in that division. 

 

I don't remember how competitive it was back in the day but Mannings never has a great division rival in the last 7 years or so. Mannings divisions were Meh at best. 

 

Also I'm sure it's mentioned here, but stat wise, playing in a dome is significant.

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I love these types of player vs player GOAT threads because it's all purely fan based opinion supported by cherry picked data.

 

All that being said Brady can add another MVP + Superbowl to his legacy, give the middle finger to Goodell, and have the media go crazy over him because they need to promote him for their paychecks, ratings and the good of the game.

 

Peyton will always be the better QB and football player in my view; unlike Brady he doesnt have the plus 1 of a single HC attached to his legacy.

There is never the question mark of was Peyton great because of the HC and system he played. He stands alone in his legacy.

 

Also I just like Peyton better and that's good enough for me.

 

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8 hours ago, dmb3684 said:

 

Ehh. I'm too lazy to argue. But if you think Brady is a system QB, I don't think you know a whole lot about football.

Ok, then just talk about how everyone says what a complex system it is when a new receiver joins the team if it's sooo easy to copy from the game tape.  I said Brady is good but the system makes him even better plus the fact that he plays in the AFC east which means roughly 1/3 of his games every season are stat padders and they'll always be the division winners.  People wrote off DeMarco and look what he did in Tenn with a system that catered to his style of play.  Systems can make good/great players even better.  Peyton doesn't need a HC, Peyton is a HC.  What he does at the line is on a whole other level. 

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