Gauthmann44

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. - 3B TOR

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8 hours ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

Hes been nitpicking the whole time. Hope he doesn’t turn out into Craig Gentry like @daynlokki predicted.

Posting about 20 different stats that all show how much luck has been involved is fluky?  His IFFB% is definitely an issue as per Fangraphs, he ranked 552nd in the minors for it.  That's kind of a big deal.  His 24.8% LD percentage is pretty nice, but even that has him ranked somewhere around 200th overall in the minors this last year.  He will most likely be a .300 hitter, but there is some down side as well.  Seems like he has been trying to add launch angle and it hasn't fully worked.  It could either work itself out, or he could end up like Ryan Zimmerman and frustrating despite strong LD numbers.

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18 hours ago, bdy1 said:

I also don't know of any gag orders or fines levied for players complaining about a crappy CBA on behalf of non-union minor leaguers, but that would surprise me less these days and would likely come from the union.

 

 

 

You're right.  He's completely wrong about union players speaking out.  I just got tired of replying to him.  Kris Bryant just spoke to Eloy's situation the other day.

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13 hours ago, STLSU said:

You're right.  He's completely wrong about union players speaking out.  I just got tired of replying to him.  Kris Bryant just spoke to Eloy's situation the other day.

It wasn't a 'union member' who supposedly spoke out, it was someone who works IN the player's union.  As minor leaguers aren't a part of the union, they are not a part of the CBA.  He cannot try and force an owner to call out a player by putting pressure on them.  That is against the current CBA... the CBA doesn't just work to limit owners, it also limits the union in certain ways.  This is one of them and why if he did speak, he spoke anonymously, because if he used his actual name he would be fired.  As it is, there is talk of Toronto filing a greivance against the MLBPA for it.  

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Page 104 of the CBA: Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to restrict the rights of the Clubs to manage and direct their operations in any manner whatsoever except as specifically limited by the terms of this Agreement.

 

There is nothing in the CBA saying when or if a club has to call up a prospect.  They legally could get pissed at someone, put them on their 40 man and just keep them until they are a minor league free agent paying them the minimum the whole time, and be within the rules of the CBA which the PLAYERS OF THE MLB AGREED TO.  They don't have the right to criticize something they agreed to already.

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12 hours ago, daynlokki said:

It wasn't a 'union member' who supposedly spoke out, it was someone who works IN the player's union.  As minor leaguers aren't a part of the union, they are not a part of the CBA.  He cannot try and force an owner to call out a player by putting pressure on them.  That is against the current CBA... the CBA doesn't just work to limit owners, it also limits the union in certain ways.  This is one of them and why if he did speak, he spoke anonymously, because if he used his actual name he would be fired.  As it is, there is talk of Toronto filing a greivance against the MLBPA for it.  

Kris Bryant is in the union.  This is the last time I reply if you won't bother to read.

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Also any players on the 40 man ARE in the MLBPA.  You keep getting this wrong also.  Eloy is part of the MLBPA.

 

For those of you who may be unfamiliar with the MLBPA, we are the union that represents all players on clubs' 40-man rosters. We are among the strongest unions in the United States because generations of players dating back to the early '60s have taken an active interest in their livelihoods and the game that they love.

 

https://www.mlbpa.org/amateur.aspx

 

NOWHERE is it said that Union members or employees are forbidden to make comments about the CBA.  Did you just start following baseball yesterday?  Do you not know of all the comments Tony Clark has made about the CBA????  How about Donald Fehr???

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-white-sox-eloy-jimenez-kris-bryant-20180828-story.html
 

NOW that is my last post trying to educate you.

Edited by STLSU
Typo

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I must admit I did not know that players on the 40 man are covered by the MLBPA but other minor leaguers arent. So Eloy is part of it but Vlad isn't.

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4 hours ago, STLSU said:

Kris Bryant is in the union.  This is the last time I reply if you won't bother to read.

I didn't bother to read?  Literally read my first sentence.  The person I was replying to originally posted about how a representative OF THE MLBPA posted anonymously about how Vlad should be up, which he CANNOT do, which is why he did it without allowing his name out.  That is against the CBA.  I never once said anything about Kris Bryant in the last post you quoted.  So maybe stop projecting your lack of reading comprehension on others?  The very first line, and I quote, "It wasn't a 'union member' who spoke out, it was someone who works IN the players union."  Re-read that again and tell me how I meant Kris Bryant.  Seriously.  And I was wrong about the 40 man, but as Vlad is NOT ON THE 40 MAN, he is NOT IN THE UNION.  So the CBA still covers that... meaning anyone working IN the union such as union head Tony Clark cannot make comments such as that as it breaks the article in the CBA I also already posted directly from the document.  Believe it was page 104 or thereabouts if you want to actually look it up yourself.  

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Also, weird that Eloy is part of the MLBPA, but is not a part of the MLBPA license agreement with SDS on The Show for PS4.  You'd think with them having the MLBPA licensing agreement they would have everyone who was a part of that union in the game.

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[Need you guys to take the temperature waaaay down here or agree to disagree, especially if you're at the point where you're questioning the other person's ability to read.]

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Vlad is a human rake machine........maybe a cyborg.

 

 

Blue Jays 3B prospect Vladimir Guerrero Jr. went 3-for-5 with a pair of doubles on Tuesday for Surprise in the Arizona Fall League.

Guerrero also drove in three runs, if you're into that sort of things. It should come as no surprise that Guerrero has hit the ground running in the AFL, not after a minor league season that saw him challenge the .400 mark for most of the year. He's ready to play in the big leagues right now, and this is just further evidence. A special talent is what Guerrero is.
 
Oct 10 - 5:32 PM
 
 
 

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There is no doubt Vlad can hit. His defense over a 162 game season based on last years error numbers would have him committing over 30 errors. That's not good, and would most likely be worse against mlb talent on a team known for groundball pitch to contact pitchers. Take the hitting stats with a grain of salt until you see the pitchers he actually faced. His own team only has 3 pitchers on 40 man rosters and just today scored 10 runs without him in they lineup. 

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1 hour ago, daynlokki said:

There is no doubt Vlad can hit. His defense over a 162 game season based on last years error numbers would have him committing over 30 errors. 

 

I mean that's a weird way to do math. 81 games played at 3rd base last year between 4 levels, 12 errors. Comes out to 24 per 162. Not sure the need to exaggerate by over 6 errors. Even take out the three rehab games its under 25. Between this and citing his AAA day/night splits (while ignoring the same for AA), it makes your arguments seem flawed and perhaps biased for some reason.  

 

Why did you say over 30?

 

He certainly has some improvement at 3b to do, but recent reports have been positive and he's not nearly bad enough to neutralize his special bat. At least you seem to think he can hit better than when you previously compared him to Craig Gentry based of day splits at one level for a partial season. So if you just think he can't hack it on defense, I think that's better than your previous takes, but I still think youre low on his d.  Maybe he moves to 1st, bat will play there.

Edited by brockpapersizer
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27 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

I mean that's a weird way to do math. 81 games played at 3rd base last year between 4 levels, 12 errors. Comes out to 24 per 162. Not sure the need to exaggerate by over 6 errors. Even take out the three rehab games its under 25. Between this and citing his AAA day/night splits (while ignoring the same for AA), it makes your arguments seem flawed and perhaps biased for some reason.  

 

Why did you say over 30?

 

He certainly has some improvement at 3b to do, but recent reports have been positive and he's not nearly bad enough to neutralize his special bat. At least you seem to think he can hit better than when you previously compared him to Craig Gentry based of day splits at one level for a partial season. So if you just think he can't hack it on defense, I think that's better than your previous takes, but I still think youre low on his d.  Maybe he moves to 1st, bat will play there.

Sorry I was a bit off, it equals out to 25.58 errors over a full 162 game slate IF he plays every inning, he was short about 40 innings of playing time over the 81 games he played.  Probably because he was substituted for defensively late in games several times this season.  Which should show you a bit.  1b isn't open, either is DH.  Blue Jays have Smoak and Morales under contract for sizeable amounts next season.  So basically he would field like Devers this last season at a .926 clip, which is horrible.  His chances would be MUCH higher in Toronto than Devers though so there is a real chance his errors move up based on that alone.  That also only counts balls he can make it to, which isn't a ton since he's not exactly known for his footwork at 3b.  His range is extremely limited.  Bet you he moves to LF or 1b within his first 2 years of pro ball.

 

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24 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

Sorry I was a bit off, it equals out to 25.58 errors over a full 162 game slate IF he plays every inning, he was short about 40 innings of playing time over the 81 games he played.  Probably because he was substituted for defensively late in games several times this season.  Which should show you a bit.  1b isn't open, either is DH.  Blue Jays have Smoak and Morales under contract for sizeable amounts next season.  So basically he would field like Devers this last season at a .926 clip, which is horrible.  His chances would be MUCH higher in Toronto than Devers though so there is a real chance his errors move up based on that alone.  That also only counts balls he can make it to, which isn't a ton since he's not exactly known for his footwork at 3b.  His range is extremely limited.  Bet you he moves to LF or 1b within his first 2 years of pro ball.

 

 

Not going to guarantee he stays at 3rd long term, completely willing to concede that but I think he could.

 

I do guarantee that every corner infield position, lf, or dh is open for Vlads bat. None of those guys are roadblocks. Not saying they are trash either, but injury aside... He's going to be playing every day within a month of the season. I think it would be silly to argue otherwise.

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13 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

Not going to guarantee he stays at 3rd long term, completely willing to concede that but I think he could.

 

I do guarantee that every corner infield position, lf, or dh is open for Vlads bat. None of those guys are roadblocks. Not saying they are trash either, but injury aside... He's going to be playing every day within a month of the season. I think it would be silly to argue otherwise.

Salary for Toronto is the road block.  They will not be benching people making 10m per season towards the end of their contract that will be trade bait at the deadline.  That's a dumb move for any rebuilding team.  You guarantee you will get no value for those players.

 

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35 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

Salary for Toronto is the road block.  They will not be benching people making 10m per season towards the end of their contract that will be trade bait at the deadline.  That's a dumb move for any rebuilding team.  You guarantee you will get no value for those players.

 

 

The trick to rebuilding is totally getting fringe value on bad veteran contracts at the expense of potential superstars. 

 

Vlad could have a 10 war season (he won’t ) and they would still probably be 4th in the division. No idea why squeezing value out of someone like Morales over him would make any sense. Regardless , he’s going to probably be playing 3rd for at least his first year.

 

the goal of teams is not to squeeze value out of every contract. Yankees were so bad to give Torres at bats over Neil walker who they paid millions for I’m sure.

 

 

Edited by brockpapersizer

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8 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

The trick to rebuilding is totally getting fringe value on bad veteran contracts at the expense of potential superstars. 

 

Vlad could have a 10 war season (he won’t ) and they would still probably be 4th in the division. No idea why squeezing value out of someone like Morales over him would make any sense. Regardless , he’s going to probably be playing 3rd for at least his first year.

 

the goal of teams is not to squeeze value out of every contract. Yankees were so bad to give Torres at bats over Neil walker who they paid millions for I’m sure.

 

 

Because getting prospects for guys you aren't going to use to compete helps immensely.  Look at Atlanta getting Touki Toussant in a bad contract swap.  Morales has some value offensively, and to let him just leave for nothing after you bench him for a full season makes no sense.  I highly doubt they bench him while he's making 12m on the last year of his deal considering he's 1/15th of the TOTAL payroll of the Blue Jays.  They may try and talk him into retirement, but I doubt he'd go for that.

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Your comparison is off as well, NYY were a COMPETING team, whereas the Blue Jays are not in any way, shape, or form.  They need more prospects more than they need stability at a position, to get those prospects you have to trade MLB talent usually.  It's more like when the Astros played Jed Lowrie over Altuve so they could attempt to get value for him in trade.  It doesn't always pan out, but you have a much better chance at getting MLB talent when you make a trade for prospects than when you just let someone walk for nothing.

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Is he really going to be a much worse defender than Miguel Andjuar? Andjuar had 17 errors in 2017 in 112 Milb games.

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12 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

Because getting prospects for guys you aren't going to use to compete helps immensely.  Look at Atlanta getting Touki Toussant in a bad contract swap.  Morales has some value offensively, and to let him just leave for nothing after you bench him for a full season makes no sense.  I highly doubt they bench him while he's making 12m on the last year of his deal considering he's 1/15th of the TOTAL payroll of the Blue Jays.  They may try and talk him into retirement, but I doubt he'd go for that.

 

I think it’s a moot point anyway since Vlad will start his career at third , but for what it’s worth roster resource doesn’t even project Morales as a starter right now without Vlad on the roster.

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Teams cut their losses when a guy on the last of year of his contract all the time.  Regardless of re-building or not. If he's not producing, it means he has no trade value. So all he is doing is taking up a roster spot. Padres had no qualms sending Chase Headley packing.

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3 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

I think it’s a moot point anyway since Vlad will start his career at third , but for what it’s worth roster resource doesn’t even project Morales as a starter right now without Vlad on the roster.

I highly doubt Rowdy Tellez will start over Morales... dude hit .270 with 13 HRs in like 400 PAs in AAA last year.

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1 minute ago, Slatykamora said:

Teams cut their losses when a guy on the last of year of his contract all the time.  Regardless of re-building or not. If he's not producing, it means he has no trade value. So all he is doing is taking up a roster spot. Padres had no qualms sending Chase Headley packing.

Morales does have value though.  It's not optimal, but he did hit around .250 with over 20 hrs and a .330 obp.  Even hit a hr in 7 straight games last year.  The only reason the Padres took on Headley last year was to get Bryan Mitchell.  They paid for a prospect basically.

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