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Minnesota Vikings 2018 Outlook

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4 minutes ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

Case keenum went to UH. 

 

I went to UH. 

 

Case keenum is the GOAT. 

I'm the in the same boat with Alex Smith. It's best to just avoid their threads lol

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He wouldn't be top 10in yards lol. He'd be 12th. Only person he passes is Bortles. For 16 games winston passes him Goff stays ahead of him. And what proves he's a game manager is he is ranked 20th in deep pass attempts. He's awful in that category with only a 40% completion rate at 20yds. Basic math, follow along I know you can do it. If his overall completion rate is 67% and his deep ball completion rate is only 40%his short yardage passes is80% meaning he only ever checked down. Which is further proven by the fact that of his 3500 yes only 1800 (51% I know math is hard) were air yards. He checked down to his receivers and they made plays to pushthe ball. Not him. But ya know top 10right

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4 minutes ago, Peaceout72 said:

He wouldn't be top 10in yards lol. He'd be 12th. Only person he passes is Bortles. For 16 games winston passes him Goff stays ahead of him. And what proves he's a game manager is he is ranked 20th in deep pass attempts. He's awful in that category with only a 40% completion rate at 20yds. Basic math, follow along I know you can do it. If his overall completion rate is 67% and his deep ball completion rate is only 40%his short yardage passes is80% meaning he only ever checked down. Which is further proven by the fact that of his 3500 yes only 1800 (51% I know math is hard) were air yards. He checked down to his receivers and they made plays to pushthe ball. Not him. But ya know top 10right

 

I guess that means you think Cousins is a game manager as well.

 

Kirk Cousins          -  4,093 yards, 27 TD, 13 INT, 41 sacks, 7.58 YPA,  255.8 YPG 64.3% completion rate                                     

Season total:                                                     347-540                Comp %              % of attempts

Play distance                                                     CMP-ATT

Pass Thrown Behind Line of Scrimmage    85-99                         85.9%                   18.3%

Pass Thrown 1-10 yds                                    170-248                    68.5%                    45.9%

Pass Thrown 11-20 yds                                  52-101                      51.5%                    18.7%

Pass Thrown 21-30 yds                                  14-39                        35.9%                      7.2%

Pass Thrown 31-40 yds                                  4-10                          40%                          1.8%

Pass Thrown 41+ yds                                     1-4                             25%                            .7%

 

 

Case Keenum          -  3,547 yards, 22 TD, 7 INT, 22 sacks, 7.37 YPA,  236 YPG, 67.6% completion rate  (14.5 games)

                                      3,901 yards, 24 TD, 7 INT, 24 sacks, 7.37 YPA,  236 YPG, 67.6% completion rate   (16 game lazy estimate per game averages)                                                                                

Season total:                                                     325-481                Comp %              % of attempts

Play distance                                                     CMP-ATT

Pass Thrown Behind Line of Scrimmage    83-101                      82.2%                    20.9%

Pass Thrown 1-10 yds                                    150-207                    72.5%                       43%

Pass Thrown 11-20 yds                                  60-98                        61.2%                    20.3%

Pass Thrown 21-30 yds                                  7-31                          22.6%                      6.4%

Pass Thrown 31-40 yds                                  0-5                                  0%                         1%

Pass Thrown 41+ yds                                     4-10                              40%                      2.1%

 

 

 

As you can see, the 2017 versions of the two are not very far apart.   In fact, ole noodle arm can't throw a deep ball limp wrist Keenum actually attacked beyond 40 yards downfield at three times the rate of Cousins.  I don't see a massive edge anywhere.

 

Case Keenum gets $25 million guaranteed.  Kirk Cousins gets $84 million guaranteed.  I don't see a 3.36 difference in skill level.

 

 

 

****DISCLAIMER**** Attempts will not add up to 100%. ESPN only charted 501 of Cousin's 540 attempts. I'm not sure if this takes out balls that were thrown away, but that is my current guess. http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/14880/kirk-cousins

 

ESPN only charted 452 of Keenum's 481 attempts. http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/15168/case-keenum  Any errors are my own****

Edited by Sternes
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Btw, Tom fricking Brady doesn't complete passes beyond 20 yards at a 40% rate.

 

Play distance                                                     CMP-ATT                Comp %

Pass Thrown 21-30 yds                                  20-45                          44.4%                     

Pass Thrown 31-40 yds                                  5-15                            33.3%                       

Pass Thrown 41+ yds                                     3-12                                25%        

 

            Total:                                                     28-72                            38.8%

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Yes you're right, exactly the same, o except for the fact that their supporting casts are drastically different.  Ya know less skilled receivers and all, o and major injuries and all.  O and Kirk enjoyed more than double Keenum sacks.  But you're right same skill

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20 minutes ago, Peaceout72 said:

He wouldn't be top 10in yards lol. He'd be 12th. Only person he passes is Bortles. For 16 games winston passes him Goff stays ahead of him. And what proves he's a game manager is he is ranked 20th in deep pass attempts. He's awful in that category with only a 40% completion rate at 20yds. Basic math, follow along I know you can do it. If his overall completion rate is 67% and his deep ball completion rate is only 40%his short yardage passes is80% meaning he only ever checked down. Which is further proven by the fact that of his 3500 yes only 1800 (51% I know math is hard) were air yards. He checked down to his receivers and they made plays to pushthe ball. Not him. But ya know top 10right

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21533844/what-learn-star-turn-case-keenum-minnesota-vikings-whether-re-signed-2017-nfl

 

It's telling that the two biggest quarterback surprises of the 2017 season were on the same team last season and didn't play very well. Keenum began his 2016 campaign as the starter for the Rams before giving way to first overall pick Jared Goff. Keenum was mediocre, and Goff was worse. The difference in their combined numbers from 2016 to 2017 is truly staggering:

SPLIT CMP ATT CMP% YDS Y/ATT TD INT SACK RATE RATING
Keenum and Goff,
2016
308 527 58.4 3290 6.2 14 18 8.5% 71.4
Keenum and Goff,
2017
413 648 63.7 5086 7.8 30 9 3.3% 97.5
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2 minutes ago, Peaceout72 said:

Yes you're right, exactly the same, o except for the fact that their supporting casts are drastically different.  Ya know less skilled receivers and all, o and major injuries and all. O and Kirk enjoyed more than double Keenum sacks.  But you're right same skill

 

 

For now. I’ll bet dollar to donuts Cousins finishes with more sacks in 2018 than Keenum

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26 minutes ago, lolcopter said:

 

 

For now. I’ll bet dollar to donuts Cousins finishes with more sacks in 2018 than Keenum

Your bet is pointless. The bet should be Alex Smith and cousins. More true test of support staff

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1 hour ago, Sternes said:

 

He would be top 10 in yardage, and 11th in TDs (I miscounted by one, you are correct he wouldn't be top 10 unless he managed an extra TD in there). Can you tell me which stats prove game manager?  I just want to know what to look for.  Is it short passes?

 

You should stop arguing for him at this point and just take the free value in drafts from the masses who think he's just a game manager.

 

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6 minutes ago, Peaceout72 said:

Your bet is pointless. The bet should be Alex Smith and cousins. More true test of support staff

 

Ok, Smith will finish with fewer than 41 sacks. Easily

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44 minutes ago, Peaceout72 said:

Yes you're right, exactly the same, o except for the fact that their supporting casts are drastically different.  Ya know less skilled receivers and all, o and major injuries and all.  O and Kirk enjoyed more than double Keenum sacks.  But you're right same skill

 

 

Wooooow there buddy. Now the numbers don't matter?  We are talking about situations?  Now we are just arguing in circles. 

 

Cousins sack 7.1%

Keenum sack 4.4%

 

Cousins was the 5th most sacked QB at 41, yet gave up the most yardage in sacks at 342 yards, and 8.34 yards lost per sack.

Keenum was the 27th most sacked QB at 22, yet gave up a lot lower yardage at 136 yards, which is 6.18 yards lost per sack.

 

No one else loses 8 yards per sack.  In fact at a glance, it looks like the next closest person is 7.4 yards lost per sack, and that is Wilson.  Jacoby Brissett loses 5.8 yards per sack, and he was the most sacked QB in the NFL at 52.

 

In fact the more I look at it, I've stumbled across an alarming stat.  Cousins has a career average of 7.99 yards lost per sack.

 

David Carr who got butchered every day at work had a 5.99 yards lost per sack for his career.  Jeff George 7.5. Cunningham 7.3. Drew Bledsoe 6.71. Kitna 6.15. Bortles 6.

 

I thought I found someone in Tim Couch at 9.6, but I entered it incorrectly and his was actually 6.74.  Anyone have a resources that has this sorted?  I finally found someone with a higher loss, Bubby Brister at 8.4, but I'm curious now as to how Cousins stacks up historically in this aspect.

 

Edited by Sternes
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You talk about ignoring stats yetyou ignored the main point that Keenum isn't even top 10 with one ofthe most complete football teams in the league. Yet cousins is top 10 in stats every year with oneof the worst overall teams every year. But keeping sucking that Keenum d for lols.

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2 hours ago, Sternes said:

 

1) Who said elite?  Top 10 I said, which is pretty solid. I didn't say top 3, or even top 5.  I'm not going GOAT=KEENUM anywhere in this thread.

 

2) Carr played 15 games last year, nice try.

 

3) If you go by YPG he is still 13th.  I have no idea why you think he would magically fall outside where he is.

 

4) He had 22 TDs, which places him 12th.  1 more and he is tied with Brees at 11th.  2 more, and he is ahead of him.  I'm sure of course that would make Brees pathetic as well for getting so few TDs, amirite?

 

5) He had the 4th lowest INT%, behind Taylor, Smith, and Brady.

 

6) How can you extrapolate everyone over 16 games and everyone be in the top 15?

 

 

And yet his organization let him walk and paid Cousins a historic contract? :D

 

I'm really trying to understand what the debate is here. Keenum had a good season on a solid team, other than that he is an average  NFL Qb.

Mcown and Tyrod had great seasons on crappy teams built to tank but no one is making either more than what they are.

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Cousins did quite well last year despite no running game, his O-line collapsing, skill position players dropping like flies, and a front office that did not believe in him.

 

Diggs did quite well despite having a bad quarterback who locked in on Theilen and mostly threw dump-off passes when he was not throwing it to the other team.

 

Now Cousins and Diggs get to play with each other in 2018.  I hope the fantasy community will just blindly believe they will have the same exact stats as last year, as they always do.  I am going to get both for bargain basement prices.

 

 

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What the hell is wrong with people? Let's lay it out. Keenum was the 3rd best QB on his team and is a career backup QB. He played on a team that had the best Defense in football. Those are facts. Cousins put up excellent numbers on one of the worst teams in all of football. The man can sling it! Why are people on Keenum's tip?? WTF? 

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4 minutes ago, SharkSwimmer said:

Cousins did quite well last year despite no running game, his O-line collapsing, skill position players dropping like flies, and a front office that did not believe in him.

 

Diggs did quite well despite having a bad quarterback who locked in on Theilen and mostly threw dump-off passes when he was not throwing it to the other team.

 

Now Cousins and Diggs get to play with each other in 2018.  I hope the fantasy community will just blindly believe they will have the same exact stats as last year, as they always do.  I am going to get both for bargain basement prices.

 

 

 

Cousins couldnt even support one WR1 on his own team, keep dreaming

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2 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

 

And yet his organization let him walk and paid Cousins a historic contract? :D

 

I'm really trying to understand what the debate is here. Keenum had a good season on a solid team, other than that he is an average  NFL Qb.

Mcown and Tyrod had great seasons on crappy teams built to tank but no one is making either more than what they are.

 

Cousins is better, but again, by how much?   Cousins "historic" contract isn't much of an indicator of his talent as it is the FA market, team desperation that thinks he will carry them, and the current glut of money teams have.  Cousins isn't a "historically" great QB.

 

It's simple, they believe Cousins is better.  They can't afford to pay both.  Keenum goes bye bye.  Why you selected that post to reply to I'm left wondering, as it was a reply to another poster who made certain claims.

 

Of course you could ask why an organization like the Vikings gave $2 million to a guy who got cut from the Rams for Sean Mannion. :P

 

We will see this year, but I don't see how Cousins can be that much better than Keenum last year, let alone the 3.36 price increase.

 

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14 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

 

And yet his organization let him walk and paid Cousins a historic contract? :D

 

I'm really trying to understand what the debate is here. Keenum had a good season on a solid team, other than that he is an average  NFL Qb.

Mcown and Tyrod had great seasons on crappy teams built to tank but no one is making either more than what they are.

 

They’re both fine QBs that I would put in the same area as Keenum. I’m not trying to paint him as the best ever by any means, but he wasn’t the reason the Vikings fell short, not even close

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and FYI I won my league using a Bortles keenum combo when wentz went down.  I'm a late draft QB kind of guy because i hate spending high draft capital on one I think there is always a value QB on the wire every week in a single QB league. 

 

So as a keenum owner he was a great waiver wire pickup just as bortles was and as a Diggs owner i saw how keenum struggled to deliver him the ball and missed on many throws.

He was a game manager simple as that.

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19 minutes ago, Sternes said:

 

Cousins is better, but again, by how much?   Cousins "historic" contract isn't much of an indicator of his talent as it is the FA market, team desperation that thinks he will carry them, and the current glut of money teams have.  Cousins isn't a "historically" great QB.

 

It's simple, they believe Cousins is better.  They can't afford to pay both.  Keenum goes bye bye.  Why you selected that post to reply to I'm left wondering, as it was a reply to another poster who made certain claims.

 

Of course you could ask why an organization like the Vikings gave $2 million to a guy who got cut from the Rams for Sean Mannion. :P

 

We will see this year, but I don't see how Cousins can be that much better than Keenum last year, let alone the 3.36 price increase.

 

 

 

I'm not a big cousins fan, good QB who can make his throws. He is a pure progression guy and a bit risk averse in terms of giving his WR a chance to make the play.  That was a major frustration Gruden had with him too. Also I think he needs to improve his pre snap reads better and learn how to punish defenses the way Big ben, rodgers and Brady does.

I will add that I do think Minn is the perfect fit for Cousins he will do well witht heir pass catchers same as he did with the vet Redskins djax and garcon. He is the type of QB where his wr's make him better and not vice versa

Edited by dashoe

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Just now, dashoe said:

and FYI I won my league using a Bortles keenum combo when wentz went down.  I'm a late draft QB kind of guy because i hate spending high draft capital on one I think there is always a value QB on the wire every week in a single QB league. 

 

So as a keenum owner he was a great waiver wire pickup just as bortles was and as a Diggs owner i saw how keenum struggled to deliver him the ball and missed on many throws.

He was a game manager simple as that.

 

 

LOL.  Yeah, okay.  He only missed on Diggs throws.  Keenum didn't miss much, so were all the incomplete passes to Diggs?

 

Why is that everyone acts like Diggs is Randy Moss, and Thielen is some scrub, and somehow Diggs is being screwed over all the time and deserves to be force fed the ball?

 

Diggs 6-0 195 pounds

40 - 4.46

20 ss - 4.11 seconds

3 cone - 7.03 seconds

vertical - 35 inches

broad - 9 ft 7 in

bench - 11

 

Thielen 6-1 192 pounds

40 - 4.45

20 ss - 4.49 seconds

3 cone - 6.77 seconds

vertical - 36 inches

broad - 10 feet

bench -  no number listed

 

Thielen has improved on his numbers each year. Thielen hasn't missed a game in the NFL.  Diggs has every year.  That never seems to get mentioned either.  It is always Diggs is getting screwed somehow.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Sternes said:

 

 

LOL.  Yeah, okay.  He only missed on Diggs throws.  Keenum didn't miss much, so were all the incomplete passes to Diggs?

 

Why is that everyone acts like Diggs is Randy Moss, and Thielen is some scrub, and somehow Diggs is being screwed over all the time and deserves to be force fed the ball?

 

Diggs 6-0 195 pounds

40 - 4.46

20 ss - 4.11 seconds

3 cone - 7.03 seconds

vertical - 35 inches

broad - 9 ft 7 in

bench - 11

 

Thielen 6-1 192 pounds

40 - 4.45

20 ss - 4.49 seconds

3 cone - 6.77 seconds

vertical - 36 inches

broad - 10 feet

bench -  no number listed

 

Thielen has improved on his numbers each year. Thielen hasn't missed a game in the NFL.  Diggs has every year.  That never seems to get mentioned either.  It is always Diggs is getting screwed somehow.

 

 

 

Yeah I think you wasted your time with post the wr comps because you clearly are focused on something that i am not. 

So I will end it on this note.

The Vikings let keenum walk, didnt even bother to do a sign and trade with him just in case Cousins passed on them.

So while you populate this thread with another page or 2 of "I don't understand why. . .", the fact is his organization understood enough to determine they didnt want him leading their offense this season. :lol:

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2 minutes ago, dashoe said:

 

Yeah I think you wasted your time with post the wr comps because you clearly are focused on something that i am not. 

So I will end it on this note.

The Vikings let keenum walk, didnt even bother to do a sign and trade with him just in case Cousins passed on them.

So while you populate this thread with another page or 2 of "I don't understand why. . .", the fact is his organization understood enough to determine they didnt want him leading their offense this season. :lol:

 

If they tagged him, then they would have been on the hook for $23 million.  No team was going to pay that per year for Keenum.  He got that for TWO years.  Once you sign him, there is no guarantee you can move him, and then how would you convince Cousins that Keenum is just an overpriced insurance policy?

 

I love it when people tout the "organization".  Yes, the organization is always right.  I remember two seasons ago when the "organization" traded a 1st rounder for some guy with one leg named Sam Bradford.  Good thing they just let him hobble out for nothing as well, that was a heck of a return they got on that.  Jeez, it is like they got the same value for that first round QB from Philly as they did for a Rams cast off for free.  The "organization" really knew what they were doing.

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