bmz0709

Drafting Saves+Holds

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I have my 4 player keeper snake draft in a 12 team H2H Categories Each 6x6 league tomorrow afternoon. A change made was transitioning Saves to Saves+Holds. Any tips on how this should affect my draft strategy?

 

I'm assuming I should devalue closers somewhat as I now have a much larger pool of players I can score in this category with. Is there no longer a point to draft low end closers who will most likely have a high 3 to 4+ ERA and only 20 some saves on the year? I could also go the route of punting this category in the draft altogether, as there should be many streaming options throughout the year. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Thanks

Edited by bmz0709

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here's the strategy- be angry at your LM for incorporating holds, complain about it at every turn.  Say that having to track setup men doesn't make the league more enjoyable, that it decreases the value of closers, etc.  Next year?  Walla, no holds!

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1 hour ago, bmz0709 said:

I have my 4 player keeper snake draft in a 12 team H2H Categories Each 6x6 league tomorrow afternoon. A change made was transitioning Saves to Saves+Holds. Any tips on how this should affect my draft strategy?

 

I'm assuming I should devalue closers somewhat as I now have a much larger pool of players I can score in this category with. Is there no longer a point to draft low end closers who will most likely have a high 3 to 4+ ERA and only 20 some saves on the year? I could also go the route of punting this category in the draft altogether, as there should be many streaming options throughout the year. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Thanks

How do you draft Kickers in fantasy football?  By going from Saves to SOLDS - essentially everyone has a job especially in a 12-team mixed.   Not a good move IMO for the league. 

 

So great devaluing of relievers in general, but I would just get the best arm in each bullpen regardless of role.  That said however, it still favors closers because closers generally get more saves than middle guys get holds

Edited by parrothead
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1 hour ago, bmz0709 said:

I have my 4 player keeper snake draft in a 12 team H2H Categories Each 6x6 league tomorrow afternoon. A change made was transitioning Saves to Saves+Holds. Any tips on how this should affect my draft strategy?

 

I'm assuming I should devalue closers somewhat as I now have a much larger pool of players I can score in this category with. Is there no longer a point to draft low end closers who will most likely have a high 3 to 4+ ERA and only 20 some saves on the year? I could also go the route of punting this category in the draft altogether, as there should be many streaming options throughout the year. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Ok so I've played in leagues for quite a few years now. I really enjoy it because just trying to get the best actual relief pitchers is more fun for me rather than guessing.

 

I say Kimbrel, Jansen, etc are still very valuable commodities. It's the lower K saves guys, especially with tenuous roles that become a lot less valuable.  So my advice would be to be fine getting one of the guys in the top few RP tiers at their same price or slightly below.  But skip on the mid tier closers and wait until the end at that point.

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I'm surprised at the holds hate. My league started doing it last year and I thought it made the season way more interesting than sitting around trying to fight over a few elite, entrenched closers.

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14 hours ago, Buddha said:

here's the strategy- be angry at your LM for incorporating holds, complain about it at every turn.  Say that having to track setup men doesn't make the league more enjoyable, that it decreases the value of closers, etc.  Next year?  Walla, no holds!

 

Holds are great. RP has become one of the most prominent aspects on baseball in the past handful of years and Holds, at least to some degree, gives value to all these guys and not just one of them. 

 

As for the question, I like to pair one big Saves guy and then fill in the rest later for Holds. Guys like Pat Neshek and Ryan Madsen carry nice numbers and grab Holds at a pretty consistent rate. 

 

Edit: if the league goes past 12 teams, I feel Holds are a must. 

Edited by bigmarc27
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10 team, AL only, auction draft.  We added holds years ago and used "saves + holds" as the relief category.  I bought a ton of 8th inning guys for next to nothing, dominated the category and won the league.  The next season we refined the relief category to "saves + holds/2".  Still giving MR some value, but making closers worth more.  Since then we've refined it even more to "saves - blown saves + holds/2".  Now elite automatic closers go for premium, regular closers go for reasonable prices and MR still have value.  Greatest category ever.

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Anyone not including Holds to emphasize how the game has shifted importance in this area are a little behind the times. 

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1 hour ago, ssmarsh said:

10 team, AL only, auction draft.  We added holds years ago and used "saves + holds" as the relief category.  I bought a ton of 8th inning guys for next to nothing, dominated the category and won the league.  The next season we refined the relief category to "saves + holds/2".  Still giving MR some value, but making closers worth more.  Since then we've refined it even more to "saves - blown saves + holds/2".  Now elite automatic closers go for premium, regular closers go for reasonable prices and MR still have value.  Greatest category ever.

May I ask what platform you're using to do this?

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1 hour ago, peelpub94 said:

Anyone not including Holds to emphasize how the game has shifted importance in this area are a little behind the times. 

 

Who led the AL in holds last year, without looking it up.

 

Not a fan of the stat..a guy could come in and pitch horrible and still get a hold.  Let's say you come in with a 2 run lead and you walk all 3 guys you face.  The next guy comes in and gives up a grand slam.  The pitcher gets credit with a hold and a loss.

 

It is possible for a pitcher to receive a hold and a loss in the same game should he exit with the lead, only to see his bequeathed runners score the tying and go-ahead runs.

 

You could say a closer does the same, but at least they have to record the last out of the game.

 

 

Makes the game less interesting in my opinion.  Sure it sucks when your closer loses his job but also takes out the strategy of looking for potential closers, tracking closers who might lose their job, etc.

 

It's the limited number of guys who get saves that makes the category interesting.  Holds decreases the stat to the point you might as well just get rid of it and add K/9 or K/BB.  This would add value to the premium relievers.

Edited by murraygd13

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8 minutes ago, murraygd13 said:

 

Who led the AL in holds last year, without looking it up.

 

Not a fan of the stat..a guy could come in and pitch horrible and still get a hold.  Let's say you come in with a 2 run lead and you walk all 3 guys you face.  The next guy comes in and gives up a grand slam.  The pitcher gets credit with a hold and a loss.

 

It is possible for a pitcher to receive a hold and a loss in the same game should he exit with the lead, only to see his bequeathed runners score the tying and go-ahead runs.

 

You could say a closer does the same, but at least they have to record the last out of the game.

 

 

Makes the game less interesting in my opinion.  Sure it sucks when your closer loses his job but also takes out the strategy of looking for potential closers, tracking closers who might lose their job, etc.

 

I get your point, but bolded isn't a hold.

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3 minutes ago, Pap said:

 

I get your point, but bolded isn't a hold.

According to the definition of a hold it is.

 

A hold is granted to a relief pitcher who enters a game with his team in the lead in a save situation, and hands over that lead to another reliever without the score having been tied in the interim"  Hrm I'm seeing different definition of a hold. 

Edited by murraygd13

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He needs 1 out

 

1. Enters the game in a save situation; that is, when all of the following three conditions apply:
(a) He appears in relief (i.e., is not the starting pitcher) when his team is leading; and
(b) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(c) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(i) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and maintains that lead for at least one inning
(ii) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck
(iii) He pitches for at least three effective innings.
2. Records at least one out;
3. Leaves the game before it has ended without his team having relinquished the lead at any point and does not record a save.
Edited by Pap

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4 minutes ago, Pap said:

He needs 1 out

 

1. Enters the game in a save situation; that is, when all of the following three conditions apply:
(a) He appears in relief (i.e., is not the starting pitcher) when his team is leading; and
(b) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(c) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(i) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and maintains that lead for at least one inning
(ii) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck
(iii) He pitches for at least three effective innings.
2. Records at least one out;
3. Leaves the game before it has ended without his team having relinquished the lead at any point and does not record a save.

 

OK, the page I looked at didn't have that information..google failed me!

 

But my point still stands; that adding holds + saves as a category makes the game of roto less interesting.  Yes, it protects people who end up with bad closers or your closer gets hurt; but it takes some strategy out of the game. 

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3 hours ago, mysonx3 said:

May I ask what platform you're using to do this?

 

OnRoto.

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5 hours ago, mysonx3 said:

May I ask what platform you're using to do this?

CBS allows this too for paid leagues. You can define and create any stat you want. Within reason of course...

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On 3/17/2018 at 6:42 PM, bmz0709 said:

I have my 4 player keeper snake draft in a 12 team H2H Categories Each 6x6 league tomorrow afternoon. A change made was transitioning Saves to Saves+Holds. Any tips on how this should affect my draft strategy?

 

I'm assuming I should devalue closers somewhat as I now have a much larger pool of players I can score in this category with. Is there no longer a point to draft low end closers who will most likely have a high 3 to 4+ ERA and only 20 some saves on the year? I could also go the route of punting this category in the draft altogether, as there should be many streaming options throughout the year. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Thanks

I avoid low end closers completely. No Brad Zigler's, that's for sure. 

 

I tend to draft one solid real life closer in the 150 overall range then 2 end-game MRs. This season, I'm targeting high K guys like Kela, Hader, and Minter. Keep in mind that you'll likely be cycling through 1 or 2 of those spots throughout the season as other guys emerge that are seeing more hold opportunities. 

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On 3/17/2018 at 4:02 PM, Buddha said:

here's the strategy- be angry at your LM for incorporating holds, complain about it at every turn.  Say that having to track setup men doesn't make the league more enjoyable, that it decreases the value of closers, etc.  Next year?  Walla, no holds!

The opposite of this.

 

bmz,

 

Saves+Holds is >>> Saves because 1) it allows the league to incorporate the entire pool of pitchers and more accurately reflect real baseball, 2) the best relievers have the most value, rather than whichever 30 guys happen to be pitching the 9th inning at the moment.

 

Do not waste a high pick or pay "market rate" auction dollars on any of the top closers. Its usually a huge waste of draft capital and the biggest mistake I see in each of my 4 leagues that use Sv+Hld.  While its true that top tier closers get more Save opps than top tier MR's get hold opps, the difference in draft cost is absurdly out of whack with actual value. Just focus on getting late inning relievers who have the highest K rates (10k/9+), and best projected WHIP (preferably 1.15 or less). There are more of these type pitchers available than will get drafted in a standard depth 12 teamer.

Remember, the Holds guys are not just helping you in 1 category - they provide quite a bit of sneaky value in K's and ratios as well.

 

With the picks/$$ saved you should have more hitting and SP talent on your roster than than the teams that spent big on top closers, and if necessary you will be able to trade players you dont need for great relievers during the season.

 

 

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We switched to S+H this year. Targeted high K/9 RP with good WHIP because we have an IP max so K/9 is big.

 

Guys I drafted in order I drafted them:

 

Roberto Osuna (keeper)

Corey Knebel

Chad Green

AJ Minter

Mychal Givens

Brad Peacock

 

 

These are good targets for you.

Edited by hailtoyourvictor

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Punt saves. Use the pick(s) that would have gone for closers to draft an extra SP2/3 and a stick, then grab good ratio setup guys in the later rounds. They're almost always undervalued (especially the first year), you'll have more setup guys than your opponents who use roster spots for closers. You can also usually spare a spot or two for a lower leverage dominator like Khanle. On the balance, you'll gain an edge in holds, ratios, W & Ks (+ an xtra middle round everyday player) for the single cat punt.

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7 hours ago, bdy1 said:

Punt saves. Use the pick(s) that would have gone for closers to draft an extra SP2/3 and a stick, then grab good ratio setup guys in the later rounds. They're almost always undervalued (especially the first year), you'll have more setup guys than your opponents who use roster spots for closers. You can also usually spare a spot or two for a lower leverage dominator like Khanle. On the balance, you'll gain an edge in holds, ratios, W & Ks (+ an xtra middle round everyday player) for the single cat punt.

This 100%.

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Here is the top twenty on the ESPN player rater in my S+H league last year FWIW:

1.  Jansen

2. Kimbrel

3. Rivero

4. Knebel

5. Hand

6. Robertson

7. Devenski

8. Miller

9. Swarzak

10. Madsen

11. Osuna

12. Neshek

13. Petit

14. Green

15. Givens

16. Minor

17. Bradley

18. Albers

19. Parker

20. Giles

 

Notice a lot of set up guys with good ratios.  Problem with setup long relief guys is that they often don't repeat year to year and they don't get as many S+Hs as the top closers.  So I would target the top closers as you normally would through that second tier of closers that go in the 80-120 range of most drafts.  After that I would see who falls.  Holds guys are pretty fungible and you can see who is getting usage in April/May. 

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20 hours ago, cs3 said:

The opposite of this.

 

bmz,

 

Saves+Holds is >>> Saves because 1) it allows the league to incorporate the entire pool of pitchers and more accurately reflect real baseball, 2) the best relievers have the most value, rather than whichever 30 guys happen to be pitching the 9th inning at the moment.

 

Do not waste a high pick or pay "market rate" auction dollars on any of the top closers. Its usually a huge waste of draft capital and the biggest mistake I see in each of my 4 leagues that use Sv+Hld.  While its true that top tier closers get more Save opps than top tier MR's get hold opps, the difference in draft cost is absurdly out of whack with actual value. Just focus on getting late inning relievers who have the highest K rates (10k/9+), and best projected WHIP (preferably 1.15 or less). There are more of these type pitchers available than will get drafted in a standard depth 12 teamer.

Remember, the Holds guys are not just helping you in 1 category - they provide quite a bit of sneaky value in K's and ratios as well.

 

With the picks/$$ saved you should have more hitting and SP talent on your roster than than the teams that spent big on top closers, and if necessary you will be able to trade players you dont need for great relievers during the season.

 

 

These are kind of my points, for regular sized leagues, if you want to turn baseball into football - this essentially turns these guys into kickers, in that the value is little to nothing.  The great thing about baseball is that its not football where there are essentially 2 positions that drive the bus (WR and RB).  I like the concept, especially for deeper or only leagues, and I kind of like the idea of the Holds/2 so you get "something" when your reliever doesnt have the closers job.  I like the fact in baseball that people choose to invest in different ways and different spots, it is what makes baseball roster building far superior to that of football.  

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I'm in a SV+HLD league for the first time, with them counting the same amount. How many closers/setup men is recommended to draft? I usually like to keep four closers in leagues with just saves. I'm assuming it's the same in a league with SVs and HLDs? Draft a combination of 4...

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It totally depends on roster size and number of bench spots.

 

Im in 2 leagues that have 26 roster spots that start 12 hitters.

I carry a minimum of 5 RPs, and sometimes 6 or 7 depending on matchups and how many 2 start SPs I have that week. 

It might not seem like it, but RPs make a huge difference in K's and ratios. With 5-6 high end RPs you often get 10-14 innings, and 12-18 K's per week, which is equal to 2 short but elite starts. That's huge.

(This is for H2H. In roto I imagine its quite a bit different with an inning cap)

 

edit - I actually didn't answer your question. I usually only DRAFT 3 or maybe 4, and then add a couple more off the wire post-draft. That way I can grab a player or 2 to stash on my DL, and/or a couple prospects for my leagues that have NA slots.

 

Edited by cs3

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