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Drafting Saves+Holds


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2 hours ago, parrothead said:

These are kind of my points, for regular sized leagues, if you want to turn baseball into football - this essentially turns these guys into kickers, in that the value is little to nothing.  The great thing about baseball is that its not football where there are essentially 2 positions that drive the bus (WR and RB).  I like the concept, especially for deeper or only leagues, and I kind of like the idea of the Holds/2 so you get "something" when your reliever doesnt have the closers job.  I like the fact in baseball that people choose to invest in different ways and different spots, it is what makes baseball roster building far superior to that of football.  

 

It doesn't reduce top closers to kicker value. Not even close. The closers lose some value but are still valuable. The players that lose the most value are the god-awful tier closers that just have a job because their bullpen is buttcheeks. Most of us in leagues that chase saves don't find this devaluation a bad thing. It's a rule change that turns 6.52 ERA 1.55 WHIP Brandon Mauer from a must-own in a Save starved market to someone you can avoid with a 10 foot pole.

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I'm surprised at the holds hate. My league started doing it last year and I thought it made the season way more interesting than sitting around trying to fight over a few elite, entrenched closers.

Ok so I've played in leagues for quite a few years now. I really enjoy it because just trying to get the best actual relief pitchers is more fun for me rather than guessing.   I say Kimbrel,

Anyone not including Holds to emphasize how the game has shifted importance in this area are a little behind the times. 

9 minutes ago, cs3 said:

It totally depends on roster size and number of bench spots.

 

Im in 2 leagues that have 26 roster spots that start 12 hitters.

I carry a minimum of 5 RPs, and sometimes 6 or 7 depending on matchups and how many 2 start SPs I have that week. 

It might not seem like it, but RPs make a huge difference in K's and ratios. With 5-6 high end RPs you often get 10-14 innings, and 12-18 K's per week, which is equal to 2 short but elite starts. That's huge.

(This is for H2H. In roto I imagine its quite a bit different with an inning cap)

 

edit - I actually didn't answer your question. I usually only DRAFT 3 or maybe 4, and then add a couple more off the wire post-draft. That way I can grab a player or 2 to stash on my DL, and/or a couple prospects for my leagues that have NA slots.

 

My league is 23 roster spots with 2 DL slots, head to head with the positions as follows:

 

C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF, OF, OF, Util, Util, SP, SP, RP, RP, P, P, P, P, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, DL, DL

 

Don't know if that changes your answer....

 

I personally prefer more starting pitchers, and only one bench hitter (2 at most) with the traditional saves category and I have been very successful doing this in those leagues, but if the SVS + HLDS changes things drastically, I'm more than willing to adapt and try something new.

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7 minutes ago, cs3 said:

It totally depends on roster size and number of bench spots.

 

Im in 2 leagues that have 26 roster spots that start 12 hitters.

I carry a minimum of 5 RPs, and sometimes 6 or 7 depending on matchups and how many 2 start SPs I have that week. 

It might not seem like it, but RPs make a huge difference in K's and ratios. With 5-6 high end RPs you often get 10-14 innings, and 12-18 K's per week, which is equal to 2 short but elite starts. That's huge.

(This is for H2H. In roto I imagine its quite a bit different with an inning cap)

 

 

In my daily roto league, my strategy in this 1st year using SV+H was to chase wins with my SP staff (Keuchel, Tanaka, Weaver, Godley, C. Anderson) and fill my RPs with high k/9 low WHIP closers (named earlier in the thread).

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2 minutes ago, hailtoyourvictor said:

 

It doesn't reduce top closers to kicker value. Not even close. The closers lose some value but are still valuable. The players that lose the most value are the god-awful tier closers that just have a job because their bullpen is buttcheeks. 

Agree with this 100%

 

Jansen, Kimbrel, Chapman etc are all still worth quite a bit, (they projectcto be worth about a #3 SP using FGs, auction calculator) but the difference with S+H is that there is a whole mess of elite setup men who are now in play that can produce 80% of their value at 10% of the draft price. 

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2 minutes ago, cs3 said:

Agree with this 100%

 

Jansen, Kimbrel, Chapman etc are all still worth quite a bit, (they projectcto be worth about a #3 SP using FGs, auction calculator) but the difference with S+H is that there is a whole mess of elite setup men who are now in play that can produce 80% of their value at 10% of the draft price. 

Yea, so guys like Barraclough have more value than Ziegler.

 

Not saying Barraclough is elite, but just trying to point out that back end closers (like Ziegler) aren't nearly as valuable.

Edited by hangin n wangin
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hangin,

 

I also use nearly my entire bench for pitching.

with only 23 roster spots you can probably get away with carrying 4 RPs in order to roster a 8th SP.  If you dont have any bench bats you can still go 8/5.

 

with 26 roster spots im usually somwhere in the 8-9SP/5-6RP range.

 

fwiw, Im way more likely to have a high upside bench hitter or 2 (prospects or potential breakout sleepers) early in the season, and then carry more RPs once things shake out and we're into the 2nd month or so.

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6 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

Yea, so guys like Barraclough have more value than Ziegler.

 

Not saying Barraclough is elite, but just trying to point out that back end closers (like Ziegler) aren't nearly as valuable.

 

Barraclough = solid pitcher.

 

Ziegler = bad pitcher.

 

 

Playing with settings where Barraclough has more value than Ziegler is good.

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2 hours ago, hailtoyourvictor said:

 

It doesn't reduce top closers to kicker value. Not even close. The closers lose some value but are still valuable. The players that lose the most value are the god-awful tier closers that just have a job because their bullpen is buttcheeks. Most of us in leagues that chase saves don't find this devaluation a bad thing. It's a rule change that turns 6.52 ERA 1.55 WHIP Brandon Mauer from a must-own in a Save starved market to someone you can avoid with a 10 foot pole.

Just like if you play a 1-C league, or dont use MI or CI, it doesnt really devalue the stars, Sanchez,Contreras Posey still have a lot of value or in leagues that dont use CI or MI the elite at positions still have value- it just increases (and by my opinion on value) too much the number of guys who are essentially on the $1 line.  I completely agree I would much rather draft Barraclough than Ziegler and in deep enough mixed or only leagues, Im good with this, I remember being in 12-team only league (pre expansion) dancing around the room because Stan Belinda got a chance to save a few games, SOLDS in that setting would of been great.  My philosophy when it comes to standard sized mixed leagues is that a secure closer is a valuable commodity, and if you dont have one, I think SOLDS is a dumbed-down bailout that makes your crappy closer an easy fix.  In real baseball the teams that win are doing 1 of 2 things, they either just have talent performing across the board at every position OR they are forced to sell off resources to fix that problem there generally are not fixes on a "waiver wire'   Closers are kind of that one spot that right now it seems like its still not completely laid out for any moron and a google search.  Its like there are nuances to each situation, there is some reading between the lines that sometimes works, sometimes doesnt, but its still there.  Taking that away for a relatively standard sized league?  I think changes the dynamic in a way that I dont think improves the game.  

 

* Only leagues and deeper mixed that cross over the 15-team threshold - YES

* Maybe non keeper leagues because there are no future resources really to trade  - MAYBE

* Moderate to small sized mixed keeper leauges - NO

Edited by parrothead
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50 minutes ago, parrothead said:

   Closers are kind of that one spot that right now it seems like its still not completely laid out for any moron and a google search.  Its like there are nuances to each situation, there is some reading between the lines that sometimes works, sometimes doesnt, but its still there.  Taking that away for a relatively standard sized league?  I think changes the dynamic in a way that I dont think improves the game.  

 

 

I agree with your overall analysis, just the conclusion I disagree with.

 

I don’t think it’s good for Fantasy Baseball to reward reading tea leaves of managers bullpen decisions over evaluating better pitching. Just because something is harder to do doesn’t always make it better and more worthy of reward.

 

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17 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

 

I agree with your overall analysis, just the conclusion I disagree with.

 

I don’t think it’s good for Fantasy Baseball to reward reading tea leaves of managers bullpen decisions over evaluating better pitching. Just because something is harder to do doesn’t always make it better and more worthy of reward.

 

 

Should we have Wins + Holds too?  That way you can take the better pitcher versus the useless guy in the No.5 starter role?

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11 minutes ago, parrothead said:

 

Should we have Wins + Holds too?  That way you can take the better pitcher versus the useless guy in the No.5 starter role?

 

its not a stupid idea, don’t see why your separate the saves though. I’d be fine with a 4 category league with the 4th being wins saves and holds with whip era and ks as the other 3. You get the benefit of the more value from starters because they influence the other three more than the relievers.

 

If you’re a Fantasy traditionalist I get it though, some people just want to play the normal 5 categories they’re use to and that’s fine. Objectively I don’t think it’s “better”.

Edited by brockpapersizer
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3 hours ago, hangin n wangin said:

I agree.

I agree as well, I just want to find settings where the value stays HIGH on whichever is the better choice.  The fear of SOLDS is basic supply and demand, the supply of quaility closer and upside middle guys kills the demand/value that closers can have in save only leagues.  So maybe its expanding pitching staffs, where the traditional 7 starters 2 closer roto model is 7 starters and 4 relief pitchers - I would be more for something like that than just keeping numbers the same and going SOLDS

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Once upon a time I was the only one this board  who predicted that Robin Ventura would name an unknown Hector Santiago as White Sox closer. *pats myself on the back for that 2011 or whatever call*

 

Im pretty decent at reading bs arbitrary manager bullpen usage if I need to. I personally don’t like to. It’s not a skill I’m particular proud of or seek to display.

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2 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

its not a stupid idea, don’t see why your separate the saves though. I’d be fine with a 4 category league with the 4th being wins saves and holds with whip era and ks as the other 3. You get the benefit of the more value from starters because they influence the other three more than the relievers.

 

If you’re a Fantasy traditionalist I get it though, some people just want to play the normal 5 categories they’re use to and that’s fine. Objectively I don’t think it’s “better”.

Its not so much categories as it is how categories impact the value of players - every year we have discussions about settings in our league, categories and about 2-3 years ago SOLDS were proposed for a vote - it would of had to have been 1 year out to not impact those who had valuable closers to keep as that would not have been fair, but even then it got no love.  But other things like wins, we went to wins + MQS instead of straight wins.  

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1 minute ago, parrothead said:

Its not so much categories as it is how categories impact the value of players - every year we have discussions about settings in our league, categories and about 2-3 years ago SOLDS were proposed for a vote - it would of had to have been 1 year out to not impact those who had valuable closers to keep as that would not have been fair, but even then it got no love.  But other things like wins, we went to wins + MQS instead of straight wins.  

 

It got no love in your league? Ok...

 

 If you want to make relievers value more scarce so be it, I don’t agree with making it scarce for the sake of making it scarce. I rather just draft players who are better at baseball than other players who are worse than them. Everyone is entitled to play how they want. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

Once upon a time I was the only one this board  who predicted that Robin Ventura would name an unknown Hector Santiago as White Sox closer. *pats myself on the back for that 2011 or whatever call*

 

Im pretty decent at reading bs arbitrary manager bullpen usage if I need to. I personally don’t like to. It’s not a skill I’m particular proud of or seek to display.

2011 I got Kimbrel on the cheap when he and Vetters were gonna be "closing by committee" which greatly devalued Kimbrel in our auction, but he was lights out that year and ran with it.  Also took a lottery ticket in our minor league draft that year on Jordan Walden because I thought he could take over the Angels closer gig, which he did.  Lately been more Carter Capps swing and miss...but thats OK

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As some others have mentioned, the closers with elite ratios will still have good value (maybe slightly less than normal).  Mediocre to poor closers will have significantly reduced value.  Elite setup guys (D. Robertson, Hader, Betances, A. Miller, etc.) have greatly increased value and can usually be had more cheaply than they should.  Also, there will always be some additional elite ratio middle relievers who appear out of nowhere throughout the year so you should monitor that.

 

In my league, to combat streaming SP's (and because we are all older now with real jobs and families), we have weekly lineup changes (H2H).  This adds value to elite SP's and all relievers in general as streaming SP's for counting stats is not a possibility.  Works for us, but everyone is different and will find their preferred settings.  There is still a lot of strategy when setting your lineup, it just ends up being different.  I find I am looking much more at who my opponent is starting than I would if it was a daily league.  The only thing I don't like about weekly leagues are mid-week injuries, so you need to be very aware of everyone's health on Sunday night.

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4 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

It got no love in your league? Ok...

 

 If you want to make relievers value more scarce so be it, I don’t agree with making it scarce for the sake of making it scarce. I rather just draft players who are better at baseball than other players who are worse than them. Everyone is entitled to play how they want. 

 

 

League has been around a while, kind of slow to change...its probably only been 10-12 years since we went 5x5 and added runs and WHIP.  

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parrot,

 

Arbitrarily assigning fantasy value to pitchers just because they pitch the ninth inning, is exactly the same thing as if we arbitrarily assigned an extra category to a group hitters because, say, they happen to hit in the 6th spot of the order. 

 

Sure some of those 6th place hitters are great and would hold value no matter what spot they hit in. And then there are also a bunch of them that have little to no fantasy relevance accept for being 6th place hitters.

 

I'm sure you agree that the "6th place hitting category" is ridiculous. So why are you willing to die on the "9th inning pitcher category" hill?

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16 minutes ago, cs3 said:

parrot,

 

Arbitrarily assigning fantasy value to pitchers just because they pitch the ninth inning, is exactly the same thing as if we arbitrarily assigned an extra category to a group hitters because, say, they happen to hit in the 6th spot of the order. 

 

Sure some of those 6th place hitters are great and would hold value no matter what spot they hit in. And then there are also a bunch of them that have little to no fantasy relevance accept for being 6th place hitters.

 

I'm sure you agree that the "6th place hitting category" is ridiculous. So why are you willing to die on the "9th inning pitcher category" hill?

If it were that easy to just "pitch the 9th" then more guys would be holding onto their jobs, there is a mentality to closing, pretty much most pitchers will tell you that there is a BIG difference between pitching the 8th and pitching the 9th, so to call them "equal" is not really recognizing the reality of the game.  I agree in some settings that it would be better to simply be able to rank the players by the best performance/stats/etc I just dont want to see spots completely devalued its not really dying on the hill, I would be fine putting it in, I would prefer it for deeper leagues and only leagues where I think the best arm would be valued.  If its a smaller mixed league, probably would want to alter roster settings to try and get some depth/value to the position if we went SOLDS.  

 

I think its really easy to say - draft the best arm.  

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1 hour ago, parrothead said:

 

Should we have Wins + Holds too?  That way you can take the better pitcher versus the useless guy in the No.5 starter role?

 

Most useless guys in the #5 starter role aren't rostered in standard 12 team leagues. Weird comparison. Teams in 12 teams leagues that I'm in carry between 5-7 SP usually. So that's about the top 72 SP owned. Not sure why you would think useless #5 starters carry value in standard leagues.

Our league was insanely competitive with saves to where you'd roster garbage cans if you thought they could be in line for saves. It was stupid.

 

Edited by hailtoyourvictor
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31 minutes ago, hailtoyourvictor said:

 

Most useless guys in the #5 starter role aren't rostered in standard 12 team leagues. Weird comparison. Teams in 12 teams leagues that I'm in carry between 5-7 SP usually. So that's about the top 72 SP owned. Not sure why you would think useless #5 starters carry value in standard leagues.

Our league was insanely competitive with saves to where you'd roster garbage cans if you thought they could be in line for saves. It was stupid.

 

In a 12-team league?  Roto?  5-starters?  In a 12-teamer, usually about 24-25 "closers" would go in our league, we have 1 or 2 owners who might grab 3 and 1-2 who might grab 1. What were your settings that people hoarded closers?  

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I guess we're in the minority by going to 6x6 a few years ago where Saves is a cat and Holds is a seperate cat.

 

It's still a dog eat dog world of Saves chasers with the added fun of dog eat dog world of Holds chasers ... double the fun!

 

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